I'm fine as it is. The game has to have some abstractions so each round doesn't take an hour.
Meanwhile, PFRPG has a feat that lets you step up to whack a guy who takes a 5fs away from you....
Options include:
1) Sundering (props to Slime);
2) Readying an action to step with and attack before them, disrupting their shot and gaining AoO;
3) Grappling (archers tend not to be good grapplers);
4) Overrun or Bullrush (hard to fire a bow from the ground, particularly if you dropped it on the way down);
5) Trip, especially if you got it Improved;
6) Any number of other combat actions and options within the 3.x rules that rarely get used.
I can add:
7) Flanking.
8) Backing the archer up against a wall.
9) Disarm.
10) Deflect arrows feat and magic items with that feat.
11) Caltrops (though sometimes tough to use properly).
12) Spells that create difficult terrain.
13) Spells that mare ranged attacks difficult to use (wind wall, protection from arrows)
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The only problem with readying an action is that if the circumstances don't happen, you lose your action.
I get confused about initiative. Is this correct?
Archer - I back up 5 feet and shoot 4 arrows at swordsman
Swordsman - I move forward and ready an action to attack if archer tries to back up again
Archer - I draw my sword and attack
Swordsman - darn it, my action never happens.
Archer - I drop my sword, quick draw my bow, back up 5 feet and shoot 4 arrows at swordsman
Swordsman - sigh, I move in and full attack the archer
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One option might be to combine some of these houserules that end the 5' step tactics with a new mechanic for "firing defensively" much like the rules for spellcasters. That way archers remain viable.
Spellcasters' casting defensively is arguably one of the options that pushes spellcasters ahead of warriors in the character class power curve (affecting the melee guy's ability to deny actions to the caster). I can't imagine copying the mechanic and giving it to ranged combatants is going to solve any problems.
That said, I don't think there's any problem with an archer playing "shoot and scoot' with a melee guy. From the archer's point of view, it's the tactic that makes the most sense (afterall, he's likely sunk feats and ability point allocation into being an archer, not to mention equipment - too much of an investment to not try and capitalize on it). Besides, plenty of tricks and tactics have been proposed in this thread that can handle this type of character; you just have to dig deeper than "move and swing."
-Skeld
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I wonder if giving archers a -2 AC penalty after taking a full attack action until their next turn might help balance this problem. After all, a person who is putting off lots of arrows isn't exactly going to be able to defend himself from a sword blow very easily (you can't parry too well with a bow).
This would add some liability to the archer's full attack and allow the melee guy he just 5' stepped away from to step up and rock his world with Power Attack (assuming he has it).
I wonder if giving archers a -2 AC penalty after taking a full attack action until their next turn might help balance this problem. After all, a person who is putting off lots of arrows isn't exactly going to be able to defend himself from a sword blow very easily (you can't parry too well with a bow).
This would add some liability to the archer's full attack and allow the melee guy he just 5' stepped away from to step up and rock his world with Power Attack (assuming he has it).
By the same token a guy swinging his sword wildly trying to hit someone mulitple times before he has arrows put into him isn't going to really be able to defend himself from said arrows very easily...
Has anyone shown that a ranged fighter taking a five foot step is overpowered? Because my impression has been that ranged fighter are seriously behind on the power curve of most melee fighters. If the ranged fighter isn't overpowered, then I see no reason to gimp them and make them even more inferior unless the goal is to not have people play ranged fighters.
Has anyone shown that a ranged fighter taking a five foot step is overpowered?
I don't think anyone is really claiming it's overpowered, just kind of dumb.
A spellcaster taking a 5' step could be verging on overpowered, though.
I don't think anyone is really claiming it's overpowered, just kind of dumb.
So the question then is, is it worth making the ranged fighter so undesireable that nobody (but those people that love playing crappy characters) goes that route just to keep it from being dumb?
A spellcaster taking a 5' step could be verging on overpowered, though.
Which they can do.
2) Readying an action to step with and attack before them, disrupting their shot and gaining AoO;You could however ready an action to use a move action to follow them if they moved.True. But you could burn a Move Action to get up on him and then Ready a Standard Action to move with him when he steps. You don't get an attack the first round other than an AoO if he tries to shoot or run, but after that you stay on him with Readied Actions to step and Full Attack and AoO as originally suggested.
I think this works ... awaiting the Rules Lawyers for verification.
Oh, and I second the whole Power Attack business. Add Two-Handed and the archer is going down, fast.
Rez
Can't ready an action to take a Full Attack as a full attack is more then a standard action or, more accurately, Full Attacks are not one of the kinds of actions that is listed as usable when readying an action.
True, but you could get two attacks (possibly more). You can get the readied attack and you can get an AoO (or more than one if you have combat reflexes).
I'm also having trouble seeing the problem here.
It sounds as if the assumption is that the archers' enemies are all basically in front of him. Why not use the bad guys limited intelligence to put in place some tactics and try to surround the archer. Even use low level ones. If they surround the party at the start of the encounter it's going to hard for the archer to get "free" shots off without moving into the melee space of a different enemy. The BBEG in the encounter should use some kind of counter measure to move his troops into a decent position.
At least that way it doesn't come across like you're trying to nerf the archer. Tactics should be used for all the PC's at some point - unless it's a mindless opponent like a zombie etc. That way he/she gets to kick butt sometimes but in other situations, they have to work a little harder for success.
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