The problem with polymorph was that you could hunt through the book until you've found the best critter for your polymorphing needs.
Because of a single line of spells, designers had to take care that they don't do critters that are too good for their HD (even though it's supposed to be more freeform).
The way the new polymorph spells work takes care of that. It means you don't have to hunt down the critter with the best strength for its HD and so on.
The fact that physical ability scores really matter for druids means they cannot ignore strength and then later go elephant.
The way the spells are in the beta isn't perfect (the bonuses should be size bonuses, at least in part - clerics get to use size bonuses with rightous might, too, after all), but they're better than the old versions, which were so broken that even fixing them like a dozen times during the 3e era didn't help.
I hear your pain, Amuny.
I'm with you. I distinctly do not like the changes to wildshape/polymorph in general.
And I say this without ever having really played a druid (I don't personally enjoy the class) so I have no bias toward making them (or keeping them) powerful.
Yes, as a DM, I saw shapechanging druids whipping themselves into powerful forms, then dominating battlefields with armies of summoned critters, plus the wildshaped druid himself.
As a DM, I curbed that greatly by simply saying a druid had to personally study any creature before he could wildshape into it.
If a druid lived in (I will use the real world to make a bad example) North America, he could not wildshape into an elephant, or a gorilla, or a lion. But a grizzly, or an alligator, or a jaguar would be just fine (I would give him the benefit of the doubt, given his class, that at some time he studied common local animals).
As for wildshaping into monsters, I would give no benefit of the doubt. You want to wildshape into a beholder, fine, go dissect a beholder and study it. If you want its special eye rays, you might want to vivisect it instead, or a fight at least one to observe it in action, then dissect it. If you don't want to carve it up, then spend some quality time with a living specimen (OK, cage it up and run tests on it if you like, or befriend one, or whatever).
That simple rule meant druids in my 3.x game never turned into anything I didn't want them to.
Heck, there were monsters my players fought but, for some reason, never examined (the corpse was destroyed, or the monster got away, or the PCs were in too much of a hurry, etc.) and the druid was unable to add those monsters to his list of wildshapes.
I even had druids going on quests just to find certain critters so they could learn how to wildshape into them.
Such a simple little houserule solved all my "overpowered druid" problems in 3.x.
Unlike the overly destructive Pathfinder version, which I have described as a "druid in a foam rubber animal costume".
4E handled Druids pretty much the same way; that is, Wildshaping itself was almost completely cosmetic. In the case of 4E, it then unlocks abilities that are balanced like any others, but the shape itself did very little.
I bring this up because this is obviously a very thorny problem. The only "good" solutions I've seen seems to require some kind of point-based system and a *lot* of work. Even then, the system can typically be gamed by determined players.
Overall, I'm ok with this, although it is a better conceptual fit with the 4E way of doing things than the simulationism of the 3.x.
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I for one love the new polymorph system (I play a 9th level druid and it's a blast!)
My favorite shapes:
Diminutive Bat (AC goes from 23 to 31 due to +6 to Dex score, which gives +3 to AC, which stacks with the shape's +1 nat and +4 diminutive size AC bonii; plus you gain blindsight 20 ft.)
Huge Triceratops (Trample at 2d12 + (1.5*STR_bonus); automatic damage to all enemies he can reach on the map; enemies get an AoO at -4 OR a Ref Save for 1/2 damage)
Medium Volodni (medium build allows you to keep riding your animal companion mount, but with bonuses to STR, CON and nat armor; and since this plant shape is a PC race with opposable thumbs (LOL!) you can keep wielding your weapons)
I suspect we'll get a good look at wild shape during the iconic druid preview (yay Lini). As cleric is next, they probably won't do Druid for at least two or three weeks after. I think Bard or Rogue has to be next. No telling after that. (Though I do think Paladin and Monk will be saved for near last).
I think there was enough feedback that the shape spells or wildshape will be tweaked upwards a bit. They work fairly well in most instances in my opinion. My 5th level druid in bear form was hardly a terror to behold, but my base 12 strength had a large effect on that. (That + 5th level is terrible for attacking clerics/druids - only +3 BAB).
And I say this without ever having really played a druid
I've seen druids, as well as munchkins playing wizards. And I can say: Yes, it is that bad.
Playing a melee druid at lvl 7, my experience is that I deal more damage than the party barbarian. Right now, I really can't complain at the power of wildshape. At the lower levels I didn't bother changing much, since my AC got indecent. At the higher levels, the barbarian might top my damage potential, but that is alright by me.
Some kind of level progression, as several people here has suggested, might be nice, so you don't get the maximum potential out of your class ability too early.
The only real problem I see, is that I don't really feel like taking on larger forms than I can already. Next level I can go Violet Fungus, 4 attacks with full attack bonus and full str for damage, and adding my Amulet of Mighty fists to each. I don't really think anything bigger is better.
I think it was "normal" for a druid to seek the "best" form in monsters handbook ^^
If it were only that. But it's Monster Manual I - MCMXVII and every other book that has critters.
it's still limited to animals forms (or plant/elemental, but that's even more restricted!). With HD equal or lower to druid level. So what was wrong with it?
First, this is part of something larger: Polymorph. Druids are restricted to animals, plants and elementals (and magical beasts as far as I know), but wizards aren't. And the rules for polymorph spells and druids' wildshape should be the same, or things are needlessly complicated.
The problem is that now when you design a monster, you cannot just look at it in terms of "is it right for this CR?". You have to make sure that it's not too powerful for its HD, lest some powergamer comes along and abuses it.
I also think that the character's ability score should matter. Playing a character with str 6 who can get the same str 31 out of a dire as a character with str 18 is just not right.
Bonuses are better than absolutes.
As DM_Blake said, in fact, it's written in the book that druid have to be FAMILIAR with the shape he want to take.
That's a jury-rig solution. The rules should take care of rules problem. It's always problematic if you try to balance rules with flavour.
It will also encourage all druids to be from far-off Vudra, where there are plenty of elephants and tigers and what-have-you.
I also find something quite unlogical. Actually, morping in a bat while give the same physical stats than morphing into a huge bear? :x
No, it won't, because a huge bear, if such a creature existed in D&D (even dire bears are only large), gives you different bonuses than a tiny bat.
If they did this to avoid "reading and calculating", as far as I know we are playing D&D, and D&D is math-based.
It's not done avoid math.
But note that math should be used wisely.
Maybe having a spell DC be sqrt((keyAbilityScore)^2 * PI * spellLevel * log2(casterLevel)) would be a lot better and more satisfying and more closely adher to the ability score bellcurve, but 10 + keyAbilityScore + spellLevel works well enough and is so much esier.
Complexity needs a payoff.
I also think that the character's ability score should matter. Playing a character with str 6 who can get the same str 31 out of a dire as a character with str 18 is just not right.
Bonuses are better than absolutes.
This is the single best argument for the new polymorph. Now, I can be a melee druid, because my character has been focusing on fighting (other than just a feat or two) and not just only because of his class feature.
I think it makes a druid a lot more fun to play, when you have to choose between different styles, rather than just maxing you casting ability AND getting the best str and con due to a single class feature. I can still be great at casting or combat, or decent at both.
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The problem is that now when you design a monster, you cannot just look at it in terms of "is it right for this CR?". You have to make sure that it's not too powerful for its HD, lest some powergamer comes along and abuses it.
And this doesn't just come into play with shapeshifting magic, but also summoning magic, charm spells, the leadership feat, the diplomacy skill and the savage species option where a player might be playing a critter of X HD.
If a monster has an ability that is out of line for it's challenge level, then the players are going to find a way to get that ability, through spell, feat, skill, class or racial ability.
The critters absolutely have to be balanced on the same assumptions made for the player characters, using the same mechanics, or you have to create a 'fantasy' game with no shapeshifting, no mind control, no summoning spells and absolutely no possibility that any monster would ever *choose* to work with a player character for love, money or succulent babies to eat, because if the monsters are *not* designed to be appropriate for their challenge rating, the players will find a way to turn those racial powers (granting wishes, granting any reptilian creature any other reptilian creatures abilities, creating infinite spawn, etc.) to their own ends.
It's not even powergaming. It's the way the world works. Some dude many thousands of years ago said, 'Wow, these elephants are really, really strong! Let's put that strength to work pulling down trees and stuff by training them!' No GM looked down and said, 'Oi! You're a 3rd level Expert, you're completely wrecking game-balance here! You can't have an elephant as a pet!'
In the core game, the ability to Create Spawn (Shadows, Wraiths, etc), the ability to grant Wishes (Efreeti), the ability to Feed (Barghest) or the ability to get endless Constitution (Shambling Mound) are things that, IMO, need to be taken out behind the woodshed.
I also think that the character's ability score should matter. Playing a character with str 6 who can get the same str 31 out of a dire as a character with str 18 is just not right.
Bonuses are better than absolutes.
If one is turning into another species, one's physical racial bonuses and penalties should go away, and be replaced by those of the new species. If a Gnome Druid (-2 Str, +2 Con) turns into a Riding Dog (+4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con), she should end up with the new Riding Dog 'racial' attribute modifiers. If she 'dumped' Strength and only has a 6 Strength in Gnome form, she's going to be a weaker-than-average Str 12 Riding Dog. If the Druid is a Half-Orc who put a few points into Str and has a 14 in 1/2 Orc form, he loses his +2 racial Half-Orc modifier, but gains the +4 Riding Dog modifier and becomes a stronger-than-average Str 16 Riding Dog.
Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, etc. 'racial' bonuses (or penalties) to Str, Dex and Con can just go away when the character is in Dire Lion form, to be replaced by the Dire Lion 'racial bonuses.' A Halfling is going to be able to 'escape' his racial -2 penalty to Strength in Dire Lion form, but if he dumped Strength, he's going to be a weaker-than-average Dire Lion. Shapeshifting *should* allow one to escape a racial penalty, since it's changing the race. It should *not* allow one to escape the point-buy. You want to dump a physical stat, you pay the price, even in alternate forms. But if you want to be the Dexterity-est Halfling around, you get to be the Dexterity-est Wolf around when you Wild Shape.
Maybe having a spell DC be sqrt((keyAbilityScore)^2 * PI * spellLevel * log2(casterLevel)) would be a lot better...
I think I'm in love...
1. 3rd level wizard with 12 int casting Daze Monster: DC 38.
2. 16th level wizard with 20 int casting cone of cold: DC 160!
Maybe leave the ^2 off the Ability score:
1. DC 11
2. DC 35
Maybe having a spell DC be sqrt((keyAbilityScore)^2 * PI * spellLevel * log2(casterLevel)) would be a lot better...I think I'm in love...
1. 3rd level wizard with 12 int casting Daze Monster: DC 38.
2. 16th level wizard with 20 int casting cone of cold: DC 160!Maybe leave the ^2 off the Ability score:
1. DC 11
2. DC 35
I was just stringing together random math-babble. I didn't care if it was balanced or made sense.
Now, who does that sound like?
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Hi Purple Dragon Knight,
I was wondering, playing this 9th lvl druid, did you choose the animal companion or the domain?
I think the domain was a pretty nice idea, but sacrifice the animal companion for it is bit sad :(
So I'm actually wondering what I'll choose soon :o
I definitely took the Animal Companion. I chose a large lion and took the Mounted Combat, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge and Trample feats. The lion himself has the Run, Endurance, Power Attack and Improved Overrun feats (the improved overrun feat helps achieving the overrun done via the trample feat [+2 to overrun]. As far as I understand, you use the lion's CMB to overrun the foe... the only things you gain with the PC taking Trample is the extra attack if the overrun check is successful, no AoO for you and your mount, and the enemy doesn't get to avoid you; although with Improved Overrun, the mount already gets the no AoO/no avoidance clause... so there is a bit of overlap between the two feats)
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I also think that the character's ability score should matter. Playing a character with str 6 who can get the same str 31 out of a dire as a character with str 18 is just not right.
Bonuses are better than absolutes.
This is the single best argument for the new polymorph. Now, I can be a melee druid, because my character has been focusing on fighting (other than just a feat or two) and not just only because of his class feature.
I think it makes a druid a lot more fun to play, when you have to choose between different styles, rather than just maxing you casting ability AND getting the best str and con due to a single class feature. I can still be great at casting or combat, or decent at both.
Exactly! I'm now playing a half-orc druid (+2 to STR and +2 to WIS... how can it get any better for a druid!), so his high STR really helps him in the wild shape department... (and his WIS is sufficiently high so as to not gimp his spellcasting... half-orc druids truly rock! I recommend it to everyone!)
PS: you can also have lots of fun with a high DEX / high WIS petite elf lady druid, now, too... just wildshape in tiny/diminutive forms... your DEX will be through the roof and your ranged touch will allow you to memorize lots of ray-like spells. The diminutive bat shape combo would be my favorite for high DEX casters (blindsight to locate enemies; faerie fire to paint them for your party's benefit; produce flame to whap them every round OR other more damaging ranged touch druid spells... haven't looked into those but there must be a few (I hope! :P))
PS: you can also have lots of fun with a high DEX / high WIS petite elf lady druid, now, too...
I couldn't before?
I thought a lot about making polymorph both working well and being enjoyable over the years. And the very best I ever got to was something along the line Pathfinder does.
You can be ANY creature you like, but the spell always works the same. A strong caster will be a stong animal and a sickly caster will be a sickly animal. And no need to do any new calculations every time you pick a different shape.
It's easy to use and doesn't cause any troubles.
If one is turning into another species, one's physical racial bonuses and penalties should go away, and be replaced by those of the new species. If a Gnome Druid (-2 Str, +2 Con) turns into a Riding Dog (+4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 Con), she should end up with the new Riding Dog 'racial' attribute modifiers. If she 'dumped' Strength and only has a 6 Strength in Gnome form, she's going to be a weaker-than-average Str 12 Riding Dog. If the Druid is a Half-Orc who put a few points into Str and has a 14 in 1/2 Orc form, he loses his +2 racial Half-Orc modifier, but gains the +4 Riding Dog modifier and becomes a stronger-than-average Str 16 Riding Dog.
Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, etc. 'racial' bonuses (or penalties) to Str, Dex and Con can just go away when the character is in Dire Lion form, to be replaced by the Dire Lion 'racial bonuses.' A Halfling is going to be able to 'escape' his racial -2 penalty to Strength in Dire Lion form, but if he dumped Strength, he's going to be a weaker-than-average Dire Lion. Shapeshifting *should* allow one to escape a racial penalty, since it's changing the race. It should *not* allow one to escape the point-buy. You want to dump a physical stat, you pay the price, even in alternate forms. But if you want to be the Dexterity-est Halfling around, you get to be the Dexterity-est Wolf around when you Wild Shape.
Totally agree on this.
It seems completely consistent with the chosen Polymorph approach (bonus vs. stat replacement).Part of the problem is the way "racial stat modifers" are treated, i.e just rolled into your base stats, never to be distinguishable ever again (vs. being of Racial Bonus type). Likewise, Racial "Size Modifiers" aren't actually of the "Size Bonus" type (only "Enlarge/Reduce" effects use this Bonus type), and thus are still in effect when your Halfling Druid is Wildshaped into a T-Rex.
Changing the paradigm so that Racial Stat Modifiers are actually "Racial Bonuses", and Size Modifiers are likewise "Size Bonuses" seems to make alot more sense. Polymorphing into a Dire Shark would change your physical Stat Modifiers, and you would likewise have a Size Bonus to match your new Size. In this case, Size Bonuses should then stack, since 'naturally' Large/Tiny sized creatures would now have a running Size Bonus which should be the 'starting point' for any Reduce/Enlarge effects (specific effects like Reduce/Enlarge could be specified to not stack with themselves, i.e. the same source effect, only with other sources of Size Bonuses... Or introduce a "Natural Size Bonus" type.)
Further, this would allow Polymorph to fully stack with Enhancement Bonuses (such as to STR), since it would be on top of the "normal" Stats + Racial Bonus... Given that loading up completely on Polymorph + Stat Enhancements is a more expensive proposition (spell-wise or item-wise), that seems a fair outcome to me, and is obviously more "backwards compatable". Anyhow, here's hoping Final goes more in this direction...
It's safer now... (she can't Swallow Whole anymore) :PI couldn't before?
PS: you can also have lots of fun with a high DEX / high WIS petite elf lady druid, now, too...
But she can still - no, I'm not going there. No birds to be insulted in this post.
Reminds me of that great Dragon article and the outrage over the name of one particular flavour of rogue.