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Okay, we are preparing for a big fight. We are all level 22, and we are going to be fighting the Big Red- the Great Wyrm.
I'm the fighter. A bit terrifying looking at Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing and an occasional Breath! My AC, before buffs, is 39. My HP, before buffs, is 209.
Okay, a given that he will hit me every time. So I have been trying desperately to find an edge. Some way to survive the fight. And then I found it! I HOPE!
My secret weapon?
Two parts. Combat Expertise... add +21 to my AC and a Tower Shield to get that AC to 62. So, I can take some rounds and not be hit, probably.
The best part? A Variable Shield. I can command it to change size from buckler to tower shield. Behind that tower shield I can claim Total Cover.
Total Cover If you don’t have line of effect to your target he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.Now the tower shield goes on to say
The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding.
However, breathweapons are neither targeted nor are they spells!
I can turtle up, and he can't Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing, Breathe at me! I MIGHT survive this fight afterall!
Just be careful that he doesn't grapple you and then toss you into that pit of lava. ~GRINS~ Good luck!
Well as long as I am under total cover he can't sunder or disarm me. When I come out he can. Remember he can't target me at all.I MIGHT survive this fight afterall!Or my cousin may sunder your shield...
*Calls Big Red*
Unfortunatly, if I were the DM, I would maybe rule that he could still sunder the shield.
However, good luck fighting that nasty, evil, cruel, Red Dragon!
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Just be careful that he doesn't grapple you and then toss you into that pit of lava. ~GRINS~ Good luck!
So I have been thinking of how he can get around it. He can't grapple me either, as long as I am under total cover. But I have to come out eventually.
BUT I figured out what he CAN do. And there is no way to avoid it ever as far as I can tell. He can do this to anyone within claw's reach of him.
He can use a Move Action, pick me up (Provokes Attack of Opportunity- but using a Tower Shield for total cover I give up ALL attacks). Once he has picked me up he can throw me as an improvised thrown weapon. He can even use me to target one of my party members.
Seems to me the ONLY way to avoid being Dragon hurled ammo is to get in the AoO and deal some damage, and based upon other similar actions it would prevent his picking me up.
To get the AoO I cannot use the Tower Shield for total cover. Which means he could just attack and breathe on me as normal. Or still use the move action to pick me up, then use one of his many actions to throw me.
In essence you cannot melee a dragon.
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He can't target *you*, but he can target your large tower shield with impunity.
Sunder your total cover and you're back to being a light snack.
Perhaps make the tower shield Adamantine. That should help a little.
Nope he can't.
To disarm, or to destroy (sunder) an item requires the Disarm or Sunder attacks. Both are attack actions against the target holding the item, not the item itself. Weird I know. It's only if I fail the opposed attack roll do you get to hit the shield.
Since I cannot be targeted for any attack (other than targeted spells) we can't make those opposed rolls.
EDIT- Never mind... yes you can target the item... after Sunder rules there is a line for it. Darn. Still easier to just pick me up and throw me.
Do you have a +5 keen, dragonbane, icy burst, holy weapon?
Do you have anyway to make Touch attacks against Big Red? Maybe some tanglefoot bags?
What's your party make up? Can you expect buffs from allies?
Do you have armor or ring of fire Res/immunity?
Might want to get +5 dragonbane holy armor spikes in case you get grappled.
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Alright, perhaps Sunder was the wrong word to use.
He can attack your shield like a door or wall. AC 5 for a stationary object, and then do damage minus hardness, etc.
Break through your shield, making it useless, and getting to you.
No you were right. AC is apparently 10+ items size modifier (probably a 0 for a tower shield)+ Dex modifier of target holding it (a 1 in this case). So AC 11 for Great Wyrm to hit my shield. Nat 1 is only way he can miss.
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Do you have a +5 keen, dragonbane, icy burst, holy weapon?
Do you have anyway to make Touch attacks against Big Red? Maybe some tanglefoot bags?
What's your party make up? Can you expect buffs from allies?
Do you have armor or ring of fire Res/immunity?
Might want to get +5 dragonbane holy armor spikes in case you get grappled.
We are going in with 5-8 PCs all level 22.
Fighter 20/Rogue 2 (me) (wanted Evasion)
Wizard 22
Rogue 22
Cleric 22
Fighter 7/Rogue 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 10
MAYBE
Cleric 22
Ranger 22
Sorcerer 22
The last three are doubtful.
The shield is +4 AC/+2 Bashing which hives the shield Hardness 17, and 70 hit points.
The purpose of this run is to test a few ideas. We get tired of listening to these players who say they took their level 18 party and killed a Great Wyrm Red Dragon and it was easy and they all lived and did it in three rounds.
We are going in with a heavy party of level 22s. Geared out the ass (some nice epic weapons and gear). Everything we come up with we realize how easy it is for a Great Wyrm Red Dragon o just counter it with ease.
With two clerics, we figure the Fighter MIGHT live to round 3. Maybe. If we get lucky. That gives the rest of the party two rounds to kill it. Assuming it doesn't just pick me up and throw me at the wizard.
Maybe combine Shield Other with some Quickened Heals?
So...you're planning to go toe to toe with the dragon in melee combat?....We're gonna need another timmy.
I don't get it -- if you're just going to take total cover for a good part of the fight, why don't you just stay home?
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I don't get it -- if you're just going to take total cover for a good part of the fight, why don't you just stay home?
No, ready action to take cover if it uses it's breath weapon. If not using breath weapon, then standard action attack. Once it breathes, I'd gamble and spend two rounds full attacking, then ready an action against the breath weapon again.
Does the breath weapon really worry you that much? A few CL 10 potions of Protection from Energy (or, even better, the spell Energy Immunity from the Spell Compendium) should have you covered, I think.
Like you said, I think it's the full attack that you should worry about.
Do you have REALLY FAST flying magic? Because doesn't a Great Wyrm have a fly speed of 200? That, combined with Fly By Attack, can lead to you just sitting there, taking a hit every round.
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Simple things you can do to increase your survivability:
Energy Resistance/Immunity (Fire/Cold/Acid/Shock...he's gonna have the ability to switch his breath, probably)
Increase to your speed and reflex. Haste is the easiest way, bur there are plenty of Cleric buffs available. Recitation is awesome.
Be prepared to get LOTS of damage dealt...Stoneskin and Blur will help out there. Perhaps a Cloak of Displacement or the like.
Finally, forget the total cover trick...a dragon will just back up, True Strike, and full power attack through your shield, possibly with Sundering Cleave on the charge.
Touch attacks and Dex damage will be your best bet, especially no save, no SR touch attacks that deal lots of Dex damage. Can't think of anything like that off the top of my head, but there you go.
Also: with a party of 5-6, expect 3-5 of your to die. If this is an issue, invest in diamonds or scrolls of resurrection before you go in. Word of Recall on the primary healer cleric will be good, also.
good luck,
-t
I hear what you're saying about parties bragging of their great-wyrm-slaying exploits and how easy it is. The only answer, assuming their PCs actually went toe-to-toe with the dragon at all, is poor DMing. A friend of mine ran the party I was playing in at a great wyrm red dragon when we were just level 12. This was back in high school, and he had about a month's time as a DM under his belt (read, a couple of all-night weekend games). We blew through a lot of his challenges, so he decided to see just what we could handle and threw the big one at us: the great wyrm red dragon.
We clobbered it. However, this was before my friend realized the importance of the wealth-by-level charts, so we had gear way beyond what we were supposed to have. The character generation method was amazingly generous, so that if you didn't have an 18 and a few 16s or 17s to back it up, the character was "useless." Combine this with a DM who was completely overwhelmed by the sheer power and options available to a great wyrm of any kind, and it led to a poorly-run dragon who went down before the munchkin wrath of a bunch of overpowered 12th level characters.
Fast forward two years of solid DMing experience for myself and my friend, and along comes AoW with Dragotha. We looked over the stats for the dracolich, compared to a few sample 20th level characters (discounting the generous boons the module presents), and came to a similar conclusion: there's no way they can stand up to this beast. A great wyrm dragon really is a thing of beauty, a nigh-unstoppable enginge of death, carnage, and destruction. Have fun fighting it! >:)
Simple things you can do to increase your survivability:
1. Pray to Bahamut so you don't get your but kicked.
2. Praise Tiamat so Big Red doesn't smite you as you turn on your party.
3. Run screaming like a little goblin girl the instant you see the dragon.
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Does the breath weapon really worry you that much? A few CL 10 potions of Protection from Energy (or, even better, the spell Energy Immunity from the Spell Compendium) should have you covered, I think.
Like you said, I think it's the full attack that you should worry about.
Other than the one prestige class, we try and pretty much stick with core books. Protection from Energy potions will pretty much be wiped out every time. It would work, but every time he breathes, my next action will need to be to drink a potion and then he tears into me. Still, it would be useful. I will mention it to the cleric.
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Simple things you can do to increase your survivability:
Energy Resistance/Immunity (Fire/Cold/Acid/Shock...he's gonna have the ability to switch his breath, probably)
Increase to your speed and reflex. Haste is the easiest way, bur there are plenty of Cleric buffs available. Recitation is awesome.
Be prepared to get LOTS of damage dealt...Stoneskin and Blur will help out there. Perhaps a Cloak of Displacement or the like.
Finally, forget the total cover trick...a dragon will just back up, True Strike, and full power attack through your shield, possibly with Sundering Cleave on the charge.
Touch attacks and Dex damage will be your best bet, especially no save, no SR touch attacks that deal lots of Dex damage. Can't think of anything like that off the top of my head, but there you go.
Also: with a party of 5-6, expect 3-5 of your to die. If this is an issue, invest in diamonds or scrolls of resurrection before you go in. Word of Recall on the primary healer cleric will be good, also.
good luck,
-t
Yep, I know the cleric is preparing several of those spells for me. We have mentioned to the wizard to focus on its DEX if possible. That is likely the fastest way to take it down.
I am the ONLY melee person in the group. So I am the only one to go toe to claw with the beasty. The breath weapon is nasty but can be overcome. Besides, I expect the dragon to use the breath weapon to hit targets further away. It will just use its Bite, Claw, Claw, Wing, Wing on me.
The one thing I did realize is, if I can get some decent DR, each attack is rather moderate. Get 17 points of DR and I can last a LONG time (Its STR Mod is +17 I think).
Combat Expertise... add +21 to my AC
Is this an epic/upgraded version of the Combat Expertise feat? The one in the PHB is limited to max. +5 to AC.
Combat Expertise... add +21 to my ACIs this an epic/upgraded version of the Combat Expertise feat? The one in the PHB is limited to max. +5 to AC.
There is an Improved Combat Expertise feat in the Complete Warrior (I believe). It requires a BAB of +6 and Combat Expertise, but then allows you to drop ALL of your BAB into AC. It should be noted that the Epic Bonus to Attack Rolls is NOT BAB.
But if you're the only melee specialist, you'll be the one the dragon will avoid meleeing. It will probably melee the casters, and just breathe on you occasionally.
I think there is a Ray or Touch of Clumsiness in the Spell Compendium. That, combined with a Bestow Curse that lowers your DEX by 6, could disable a dragon. All you need to do is beat its Will Save and SR.
Good Luck with that.
Maybe play a swashbuckler instead of a fighter and just do Dex damage on crits. Do they get that ability? Or is that just Str and Con?
Krome - I wish you the very best of luck.
Luck is a great idea!!! You should take a bunch of luck feats from the Complete Scoundrel. They can help you avoid unlucky saving throws and attack rolls and stuff. And maybe help you confirm a lucky crit.
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about the readied action thing- you can't ready 2 different actions and choose. If you ready one action, that means you can't use your standard action to attack, nor can you drop the readied action to attack once you see that he hasn't used his breath weapon. That's the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. If you think it might use it's breath weapon, use the readied action so that the DM doesn't say "it moves to the left and then blasts you", but you would be forgoing your attack regardless.
EDIT: Also, he could full attack you when you turtle up.
Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than
5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly
differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any
square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against
its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against
such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to
determine if it has cover against you.
If it can draw line of effect to your side (since a tower shield only gives you total cover to one side of your square, not 3) then it can attack you unimpeded. It would only block the breath if you ready against it, like I mentioned before
Forget the armor. Buy a ring of blinking and drink a potion of displacement. 2 50/50 chances of hitting you? I'd wade into combat with that. Miss chances are better defense than AC. Use resist energy. With a good save, you will negate a lot of the damage. Combine it with protection. When the protection wears off, you still have the other. Your main concern should be: getting picked up and then dropped from a high height. Or held in a claw and have him breathe on you several times when your allies can't help. Seen that one before -yikes.
Have the spellcasters cast dispel on him. getting rid of the buffs is key and dragons have a low CL compared to their CR. good luck!
There's even an Improved Blink spell in Spell Compendium. Only 5th level, and you don't get the miss chance. Combine the potion of displacement with a potion of mirror image. That might give you a couple rounds of relative safety.
Also, check out the Shattermantle special ability on page 43 of the Magic Item Compendium. Each successful attack lowers the target's SR by 2--cumulative! For 1 round. For +1!
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Combat Expertise... add +21 to my ACIs this an epic/upgraded version of the Combat Expertise feat? The one in the PHB is limited to max. +5 to AC.
Nope, that is an absolutely stupid and artificial limitation purposely designed to make the fighter a piece of crap class. Power Attack can go above 5. Casters can do just about anything at all they can imagine. Rangers can get buffs added galore to their DEX. That limitation is just another way to make the Fighter an undesirable class.
We have not yet finished the fight. We made it through 5 rounds and I have managed to only take 3 points damage. We have dealt about 300 (I did 33! woo hoo!) to it, but it has also buffed itself galore.
First thing the fight has shown is the Fighter at higher levels is absolutely useless. I have managed to get it into melee once, and that was because the GM forgot I could fly up to it at that point. The Rogues have been nailing it with ranged attacks. The fighter cannot get close to it to attack at all. I think I have decided that after this fight is over tomorrow, I am retiring the Fighter for good.
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about the readied action thing- you can't ready 2 different actions and choose. If you ready one action, that means you can't use your standard action to attack, nor can you drop the readied action to attack once you see that he hasn't used his breath weapon. That's the equivalent of having your cake and eating it too. If you think it might use it's breath weapon, use the readied action so that the DM doesn't say "it moves to the left and then blasts you", but you would be forgoing your attack regardless.
EDIT: Also, he could full attack you when you turtle up.
Big Creatures and Cover: Any creature with a space larger than
5 feet (1 square) determines cover against melee attacks slightly
differently than smaller creatures do. Such a creature can choose any
square that it occupies to determine if an opponent has cover against
its melee attacks. Similarly, when making a melee attack against
such a creature, you can pick any of the squares it occupies to
determine if it has cover against you.If it can draw line of effect to your side (since a tower shield only gives you total cover to one side of your square, not 3) then it can attack you unimpeded. It would only block the breath if you ready against it, like I mentioned before
There is no facing in D&D so how can it decide which side is the side with the tower shield? If there was facing I would agree 100%.
If that is a real rule, then really there is absolutely no reason to ever play a fighter. The last few games I have played with this character, since about upper teens, the Fighter has been absolutely useless.
There are no fighter feats I can find to give me more movement. A melee character does not get magic items to boost as well as ranged fighters do. Ranged characters can use a standard attack with Many Shot and unleash 5 attacks as a standard attack. There is no feat for melee to do that. I HAVE to have a full attack to make any difference, which means I HAVE to loose the armor (if human- as dwarf already screwed on movement). You cannot defend your self against attacks like every one else can. The Fighter is 98% reliant on other characters to make him 15% useful. I've been playing this guy a LONG time and it gets tiring to spend 5 rounds waiting for buffs and taking damage before I can manage to do a single thing, and even then it is useless.
For example, I have dished out 33 points of damage. My wife has dealt over 200.
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Forget the armor. Buy a ring of blinking and drink a potion of displacement. 2 50/50 chances of hitting you? I'd wade into combat with that. Miss chances are better defense than AC. Use resist energy. With a good save, you will negate a lot of the damage. Combine it with protection. When the protection wears off, you still have the other. Your main concern should be: getting picked up and then dropped from a high height. Or held in a claw and have him breathe on you several times when your allies can't help. Seen that one before -yikes.
Have the spellcasters cast dispel on him. getting rid of the buffs is key and dragons have a low CL compared to their CR. good luck!
Funny you should mention dropping. The cleric got himself picked up and dropped from 150 feet. Landed in the square next to me. I do have a Celestial suit of Armor so am flying. Otherwise I could never ever have a chance of affecting the combat at all. Not that it matters.
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Yep, this fighter is being retired. Every single option to improve the fighter mentioned requires he take a special magic item or have a caster do something to him. There is nothing a fighter can do, as a fighter, to improve his capabilities at higher levels. His only choices are to prestige class into something else, and even then it can't be melee.
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[rant]I'm sorry, I assumed that we were using common sense, but then I remembered that we are talking about D&D - the place where common sense holds no power. You just keep sticking to the letter of the beneficial rules to the point of denying logic and ignoring the limitations that were put in. The people that made the game obviously didn't know what they were doing, those amateurs.
Note that the above comment also comes from my current GM ignoring/changing rules. I stick to the rules as intended without trying to abuse them, and people that ignore a rule for no other reason than "I don't like it" earn my ire. It makes me shudder and feel dirty when someone in my group gravely misinterprets a rule.[/rant]
EDIT:Also, why don't you get the buffs pre-battle? it's much better to do it that way, especially if the casters get Extend Spell or a metamagic rod of Extend Spell. I wouldn't suggest going straight fighter into epics, I would have multi-classed even a little by then. Hell, go into rogue for 2 levels, you get skill points, evasion, sneak attack, and trapfinding. Take a level of sorcerer and get a wand chamber in your weapon, and put a good buffing wand in there. Take a level of Barbarian and use your normal feats to get Rage feats, while leaving your fighter feats for other things. The possibilities are endless, and all with just a little dipping.
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Have you thought about taking some of the feats from the psionic books Many of which a Fighter can take. I had a fighter with them in my Curse of the crimson Throne campaighn and they turned him into a veritable killing machine. (at one point doing over 300 pts of damage a round) Cant remember the exact feats he took so I will ask him tonight and get back to you (Although i'll admit you might be to a high a lvl for this to work know.)
Sorry to hear you aren't having a lot of fun.
The role of the fighter changes at higher levels. At low levels, they're the consistent damage dealers, with the spellcasters being the trump cards. At higher levels, the fighters mostly act as a barrier between the opponents and the consistent artillery of the spellcasters. Also, fighters are designed to be versatile in combat situations....they can Power Attack and Cleave and Bullrush AND Combat Expertise and Trip and Disarm AND Dodge and Spring Attack AND fight with 2 weapons AND excell at ranged combat AND excell at mounted combat. Most other combatants have a single schtick and have to pretty much stick to it.
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[rant]I'm sorry, I assumed that we were using common sense, but then I remembered that we are talking about D&D - the place where common sense holds no power. You just keep sticking to the letter of the beneficial rules to the point of denying logic and ignoring the limitations that were put in. The people that made the game obviously didn't know what they were doing, those amateurs.
Note that the above comment also comes from my current GM ignoring/changing rules. I stick to the rules as intended without trying to abuse them, and people that ignore a rule for no other reason than "I don't like it" earn my ire. It makes me shudder and feel dirty when someone in my group gravely misinterprets a rule.[/rant]
EDIT:Also, why don't you get the buffs pre-battle? it's much better to do it that way, especially if the casters get Extend Spell or a metamagic rod of Extend Spell. I wouldn't suggest going straight fighter into epics, I would have multi-classed even a little by then. Hell, go into rogue for 2 levels, you get skill points, evasion, sneak attack, and trapfinding. Take a level of sorcerer and get a wand chamber in your weapon, and put a good buffing wand in there. Take a level of Barbarian and use your normal feats to get Rage feats, while leaving your fighter feats for other things. The possibilities are endless, and all with just a little dipping.
the scenario doesn't ALLOW pre-buffs.. I have two levels of rogue. Of course all of the suggestions require the Fighter to dip into other classes. You are essentially saying what I said. A straight up melee fighter does not work at higher levels.
So, I am glad you agree with me :) As far as sticking with the rules, what is the point in sticking with a rule that has no logic at all, and the only reason for its limitations is to limit the class further than others.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Next time I heartily endorse the "Fighter Meteor" tactic, which goes like this:
Dragon: (has turn flying around all casual-like)
Wizard: Casts a violent thrust Telekinesis on the fighter, dealing 12d6 damage to both of them as they collide
Fighter: (riding dragon like a bomb out of Dr. Strangelove) Full attack!
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Fighters need a good ranged attack at high levels in addition to their melee attacks. They need to be able to deal some damage so that their opponents can't ignore them. Fighters get a whole lot of feats, so it's not that hard to diversify into getting a good ranged attack, they could even get Manyshot so they could move and attack at the same time.
The Fighter is not going to shine in an encounter with a huge flying magical creature at level 22. But there will be other encounters where the Fighter will have his day in the sun. With a ranged weapon, however, at least your Fighter can have an impact.
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or, if you happen to make it to 20 con at first level (which is achievable with a dwarf) you can use every normal feat slot to get Roll With It, which gives you a cumulative DR 2/- for every time you take it. It gives the word "Tank" a whole new meaning, especially if you couple that with adamant full plate with bonuses to reflex saves, and then get a ring of evasion. Then maybe boots of Flying and a decent magical weapon.
And that Fighter Meteor tactic made me burst out laughing, thanks for that
Touch attacks and Dex damage will be your best bet, especially no save, no SR touch attacks that deal lots of Dex damage. Can't think of anything like that off the top of my head, but there you go.
good luck,
-t
Shivering Touch.
At leel 22 you should all be able to afford having a Contingent True Resurrection spell cast on you. EVERYONE GETS 2 SHOTS AT HIM.
Touch attacks and Dex damage will be your best bet, especially no save, no SR touch attacks that deal lots of Dex damage. Can't think of anything like that off the top of my head, but there you go.
good luck,
-t
Shivering Touch.
At leel 22 you should all be able to afford having a Contingent True Resurrection spell cast on you. EVERYONE GETS 2 SHOTS AT HIM.
Shivering Touch looks like it has SR, but you can get around that (MAYBE) by having a 20th level beguiler use Cloaked Casting (overcome SR) and a wand or staff with Shivering Touch. She'd have to use UMD to do that.
Oh yeah, I found a way to 1 round the average dragon: Assuming you're 18th level or higher, be a shadowcaster (Tome of Magic), take the Greater Flesh Fails mystery, the feat Favored Mystery twice in that mystery, and Quicken Mystery and a couple Reach Mystery feats. Maybe Shadow Familiar and Improved Familiar if you want solo kill it.
Greater Flesh Fails does 6 points of Str or Dex damage, or 4 points in Con damage, no save. By taking Favored Mystery twice, it becomes a supernatural ability, so no SR. The average dragon has a Dex of 10, so you can cause 12 points of Dex damage in 1 round, 6 from a regular casting of Greater Flesh Fails, and 6 from a Quickened casting of Greater Flesh Fails. Then sic your (improved) shadow familiar at it to Coup De Grace it.
Do familiars get feats? It might have to get that feat that lets it Coup De Grace as a standard action so it can move up for the kill in 1 round. Otherwise, it might take TWO rounds to kill Big Red, and that ain't impressive at all! ;-)
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Well, we tried. We called it a draw, though the dragon was ultimately going to win. We survived 11 rounds. I managed to get one full attack on the mobile SOB, and did some hefty damage, the ranged archer types kept plugging away for tons every round. And it just kept healing itself.
When we called it quits it still had a wish left and most of its spells. We were getting tapped on resources and all of my buffs were screwed with Dispel Magic.
I think we all knew we were beat. But we all survived as well. Mainly it toyed with us. I do have to admit the dropping of the Cleric from on high was cool. Ring of Feather Fall came in quite handy though! lol
As melee I was almost useless, as it kept making me move so no full attacks- only about 40 points damage a round. The one time it did stay put I pumped 16 points into Power Attack, and got some NICE dice rolls for once. Hit 5 out of 6 times for 210ish damage. Then it decided to DEbuff me. DANG!
The Bestow Curse idea was presented o the wizard who just laughed at me. The dragon's will save was WAAAAAY too high. I think he said the dragon's will save was higher than his DC. THAT sucks.
The casters were nearly absolutely useless except for buff spells. You would think a 22nd level Cleric and Wizard could do SOMETHING to a dragon, even a CR 26 dragon. Oh well... was a good try but no way it was happening.
Do you have a +5 keen, dragonbane, icy burst, holy weapon?
Do you have anyway to make Touch attacks against Big Red? Maybe some tanglefoot bags?
What's your party make up? Can you expect buffs from allies?
Do you have armor or ring of fire Res/immunity?
Might want to get +5 dragonbane holy armor spikes in case you get grappled.
We are going in with 5-8 PCs all level 22.
Fighter 20/Rogue 2 (me) (wanted Evasion)
Wizard 22
Rogue 22
Cleric 22
Fighter 7/Rogue 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 10
MAYBE
Cleric 22
Ranger 22
Sorcerer 22The last three are doubtful.
The shield is +4 AC/+2 Bashing which hives the shield Hardness 17, and 70 hit points.
The purpose of this run is to test a few ideas. We get tired of listening to these players who say they took their level 18 party and killed a Great Wyrm Red Dragon and it was easy and they all lived and did it in three rounds.
We are going in with a heavy party of level 22s. Geared out the ass (some nice epic weapons and gear). Everything we come up with we realize how easy it is for a Great Wyrm Red Dragon o just counter it with ease.
With two clerics, we figure the Fighter MIGHT live to round 3. Maybe. If we get lucky. That gives the rest of the party two rounds to kill it. Assuming it doesn't just pick me up and throw me at the wizard.
Every time I hear these stories and ask for the play by play it is discovered the DM had horrible tactics and/or some rule mistake was made that allowed the group to do something they should not have been able to do.
The other scenario is when they wont give details and say they don't have to prove anything to anyone. As long as they know they did it that is all that counts. In other words a copout.
Well, we tried. We called it a draw, though the dragon was ultimately going to win. We survived 11 rounds. I managed to get one full attack on the mobile SOB, and did some hefty damage, the ranged archer types kept plugging away for tons every round. And it just kept healing itself.
If you had 2 clerics, and the dragon KEPT healing itself, one of those clerics should have been readying a counterspell to prevent that.