General-question about new pathfinder feat

[alan jessup]

First of all, sorry if i placed this in the wrong forums.

Second, I had a question regarding Two-weapon fighting in the new pathfinder RPG. I've downloaded the beta, looked it over, and my group definatly wants to switch over to this when it releases, so i figure it'd be pretty good to figure out wtf I'm doing now ^^

Anyway, my question is this: In wizard's 3.5 D&D, two-weapon fighting and improved unarmed strike specifically stated that a you could not dual-wield your fists. In the Pathfinder beta, this wording was removed from the improved unarmed strike feat, monk's unarmed attack class feature, as well as the Two-weapon Fighting feat.

Am i just missing it, or are monks now able to take the two-weapon fighting tree with unarmed attacks?

Thanks for any answers.

[DM_Blake]

This is how I see it:

Yes, you can use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed strikes.

Pathfinder Beta, Two-Weapon Fighting, Page 152 wrote:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

I bolded the pertinent part.

It would not say "An unarmed strike is always considered light" if you cannot use unarmed strikes in the first place.

**************************************************************

Incidentally,

I just checked the d20 SRD under Monk, under Improved Unarmed Strike, and under Two-Weapon-Fighting, and I see no reference to not using two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. In fact, the same text that I bolded above appears in the same place in the SRD.

So where did you find the ruling that monks cannot use two-weapon fighting?

I did find this:

D20 SRD, Monk, Unarmed Strike wrote:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

It's worth noting that this paragraph is referring to the rule that says you apply only half your STR damage modifier to your off-hand attacks, and according to this paragraph, this rule doesn't apply to monks striking with either hand since they have no actual "off-hand" when attacking.

This paragraph doesn't preclude using both hands. It simply rules that whichever hand a monk uses is not considered an "off-hand".

But I can see how this may be mistaken to mean they can't strike with their "off-hand", especially since Two-Weapon Fighting has specific rules regarding the weight of the weapon in your "off-hand".

This should be read to mean:
1. Monks can fight with "either fist or with elbows, knees, and feet." (it says so on page 29 under the Monk's Unarmed Strike class ability).
2. When they do so, none of their attacks apply the 1/2 STR modifier for being off-hand.
3. If a monk wishes to use Two-weapon fighting, he may do so with the usual penalties. Even though he has no "off-hand", apply the Two-Weapon Fighting penalties as if he does, remember that for this purpose, his "off-hand" weapon is light because he is unarmed.
4. (The fun part). Two-Weapon Fighting stacks with Flurry of Blows. The penalties are all untyped, so they all stack.

So a first level monk could take the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and use Flurry of Blows, but he will be -4 with all three of his attacks.

Also note that every attack in Flurry of Blows can come from the same weapon, so a 15th level monk could Flurry by kicking his opponent 5 times with his right foot, if he wants. Or if he's holding a +5 Holy Flaming Burst Dragonbane kama in his left hand, he can Flurry with that kama 5 times.

And if he wishes, he can use Two-Weapon Fighting to get one extra attack (but it should be with some other weapon than whichever one the monk calls his primary attack) so if he smacks a dragon 5 times with that kama, he gets one more attack at his highest attack modifier (but they are all at an extra -2 for Two-Weapon Fighting) and this extra attack cannot be with the Kama.

And he can stack in Improved Two-Weapon Fighting to get a 7th attack, this one at an extra -5 (per the feat), and also cannot use the Kama for this 7th attack.

That's not bad. 7 attacks without haste, all of them suffering only -2 (when a monk is that high a level, he has no penalty for Flurry of Blows).

I taught Kempo Karate for a couple years. Our Sr. Instructor was a 4th degree black belt - I'm quite sure he could land way more than 7 attacks, mostly hands and elbows, in a 6-second time period. Heck, at only a black belt myself, I could land 7 attacks in 6 seconds too.

[alan jessup]

DM_Blake wrote:

This is how I see it:

Yes, you can use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed strikes.

Pathfinder Beta, Two-Weapon Fighting, Page 152 wrote:

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

I bolded the pertinent part.

It would not say "An unarmed strike is always considered light" if you cannot use unarmed strikes in the first place.

**************************************************************

Incidentally,

I just checked the d20 SRD under Monk, under Improved Unarmed Strike, and under Two-Weapon-Fighting, and I see no reference to not using two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes. In fact, the same text that I bolded above appears in the same place in the SRD.

So where did you find the ruling that monks cannot use two-weapon fighting?

I did find this:

D20 SRD, Monk, Unarmed Strike wrote:

There is no such thing as an off-hand attack for a monk striking unarmed. A monk may thus apply her full Strength bonus on damage rolls for all her unarmed strikes.

It's worth noting that this paragraph is referring to the rule that says you apply only half your STR damage modifier to your off-hand attacks, and according to this paragraph, this rule doesn't apply to monks striking with either hand since they have no actual "off-hand" when attacking.

This paragraph doesn't preclude using both hands. It simply rules that whichever hand a monk uses is not considered an "off-hand".

But I can see how this may be mistaken to mean they can't strike with their "off-hand", especially since...

Ok, just opened my copy of the 3.5 players manual, and to sum up....

I'm a moron.

I've no idea where I saw the "you can't dual-wield as a monk" rule. I may be remembering a different 3.5-based game, though for the life of me I can't remember what one. Sorry about that.

My original reason for asking was because I had an idea for doing a 16monk/4 fight, which would be enough {if i did my math right, and considering my accuracy so far on this post, I think I'mma go back and doublecheck ^^} to qualify for improved vital strike.

So if I'm doing my math correctly, a round would look like this:
3 base attacks
3 off-hand attacks
3 Flurry of blows attacks {two for being over L11, one for spending a point from the ki pool}
2 attacks from Medusa's wrath {but only if target is dazed, flatfooted,
paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious}
-2 attacks from improved vital strike {though your attacks do x3 base damage, not multiplying sneak attack, percision, or special weapon damage like flaming or lightning burst}

so without magic items, thats looking like 9 attacks in 6 seconds, at 6d6 a pop, provided the target is stuned, staggered, flatfooted, etc. Without haste ^^

Again, thank you for the clear-up, sorry for the noob question ><