Someone make me a useful monk for organized play

[Xisiqomelir]

Anyone remember the gamebook series "Way of the Tiger"? It's this awesome series, if you need a memory jog:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Way_of_the_Tiger

The main villain in book 1 of that series is Yaemon, Grandmaster of Flame, Head of the Order of Monks of the Scarlet Mantis. Yaemon is awesome, and I want to be Yaemon in Pathfinder society. Unfortunately, the glaring defects of the monk class are impeding this dream.

Someone, please make me an unarmed, high-mobility, high-damage character build. I don't care if you use something like Fighter/Rogue to do it, I'm an old hand at mental re-fluffing.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

What's wrong with the monk class? in terms of unarmed damage I don't think you'll get anything better from the other classes...

[_metz_]

Xisiqomelir wrote:

Someone, please make me an unarmed, high-mobility, high-damage character build. I don't care if you use something like Fighter/Rogue to do it, I'm an old hand at mental re-fluffing.

Monks are actually quite good PCs if you know how to build and use one correctly. They just get a really bad reputation because a lot of folk have no idea what they are doing with them, and treat them like fighters.

Suitable Stats:

Str: 17
Dex: 14
Con: 13
Int: 8
Wis: 14
Cha: 7

Race: Human - 4 Skills per level, recommend Tumble, Spot, and then 5 Ranks in things like Jump,/Balance which add to Tumble. Higher levels dump remaining skills into Listen.

Monk1: Feats - Two Weapon Fighting OR Power Attack, Improved Grapple(Human), Stunning Fist* Improved Unarmed Strike*
Monk2: Combat Reflexes*
Monk3: Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strike OR Weapon Proficiency Temple Sword/Urumi
Monk4:
Monk5:
Monk6: Improved Natural Attack OR Weapon Focus Temple Sword/Urumi, Improved Disarm/Improved Trip* (your Choice)

One Build Has you Flurrying/Power Attacking Two Handed With a Temple Sword and tripping Folk - The other has You using the Urumi to disarm people, And the unarmed build has you hitting at 2d6+4 Damage each hit with three Attacks a round (4 if Hasted).

Monks are harder to build, and a LOT harder to use effectively, but they certainly don't suck.

Oh and Buy potions/scrolls of Mage Armour/Get someone to enlarge you.

The Alternative is Monk2/Fighter X, but don't forget you don't get to flurry in Armour - Which is half the point. If you Just Want to grapple and othewise use a greatsword, then it is FINE.

[Deussu]

Of course this all will change once PFRPG kicks in.

[Lehmuska]

As long as we're using 3.5 rules, this works.

Cleric 1 / Monk x

Get a decent int (12 should be more than enough) and take magic domain. Now you can use every 1st level scroll on wizard & cleric lists. These include spells such as shield, mage armor, shield of faith, magic weapon, bless, divine favor, shocking grasp & chill touch.

You can boost your AC through when you need to with scrolls of mage armor & shield. You can use your cleric spell slots for offensive buffing via divine favor, magic weapon, or bless, or you can use shield of faith to increase your AC without spending money on a scroll.

Finally, when you get to ambush an enemy or you can't reach your foe in the first round, you can cast shocking grasp or chill touch to give your damage a one time boost.

This build might fall apart by august, because Beta changed magic domain so it won't give access to wizard casting through scrolls and wands.

[Gworeth]

Hmmm.. How to build a better monk....

I'd go human...

First the stats...

I'd go about it like this (in prioritized order):

Dex, Wis, Con, Str, Int, Cha

Dex is used both offencive and defencive, and saves
Wis is for AC and for diffrent monk abilities.. and saves
Con.. well, makes you stay in a fight a bit longer and good for saves..
Str is not nearly as important as it looks, since you are going to use your dex for combat, and the additional damage is not that great anyway...
Int for skills, skills, skills..
Cha ..... who ever chats down chicks when you're a monk ;-)

Monk 1 Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Monk 2 Agile Maneuvers
Monk 3 Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Monk 4 Boo!
Monk 5 Toughness (Yeah! 3hp +1/lv, retroactive is nice...)
Monk 6 Improved Disarm (Oh! and do go get yerself that sai... )
Monk 7 Improved natural attack (Can you feel that punk, huh?)
Monk 8 Booo!
Monk 9 Scorpion Style (Don't move chum! Sad that it's a fortitude save though...)
Monk 10 Medusa's wrath or Improved Critical (unarmed)

Don't forget to burn ki to get that extra attack or bonus AC ;-)
Skills: Stealth, stealth, stealth! And acrobatics! Jump, jump!

Hope this is something to help you along!

[_metz_]

Gworeth wrote:

Dex is used both offensive and defensive, and saves

Str is not nearly as important as it looks, since you are going to use your dex for combat, and the additional damage is not that great anyway...

Monk 1 Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Monk 2 Agile Maneuvers
Monk 3 Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Monk 4 Boo!
Monk 5 Toughness (Yeah! 3hp +1/lv, retroactive is nice...)
Monk 6 Improved Disarm (Oh! and do go get yerself that sai... )
Monk 7 Improved natural attack (Can you feel that punk, huh?)
Monk 8 Booo!
Monk 9 Scorpion Style (Don't move chum! Sad that it's a fortitude save though...)
Monk 10 Medusa's wrath or Improved Critical (unarmed)

Most of this is incorrect, and includes stuff that is not permissible.

1. Weapon Finesse requires BaB of +1 so cannot be taken at first level.
2. Strength is essential to a monk build as a dex based monk has no other means of producing Damage. Also As monks are one of the only classes that gets FULL strength on Flurries/TWF Flurries then it is unwise not to take advantage of that.
3. Toughness does not add retroactive 1/level Hit points. It gives you THREE hit points, that is it - Read the PHB/SRD.
4. How is the Monk getting Improved Natural Attack at level 7? there is no available feat choice there
5. There is no such thing as Ki Points in 3.5 PHB only
6. Who takes Improved Initiative? (Bonus points if you get the reference)
7. Agile Manoeuvres/Scorpion Style/Medusa's Wrath are not core 3.5 rules.
8. Again, where are the feats at level 10 coming from?

Sorry if this seemed curt or harsh, but I needed to jump in and point out that this is not a 3.5 build. - Perhaps this has something to do with Pathfinder RPG? I am waiting for the published version before reading it, and so am unfamiliar with the mechanic.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Yes. "Agile Maneuvers" should have clued you in that this was PRPG. The Beta version is free for download online by the way...

[Jesse Heinig]

I'm a bit fond of mixing up monk with a few rogue levels. Of course, if you have the base rule set problem of no multiclassing outside of the monk class, then you may have to take rogue levels on the front end. If you can handle taking three levels of rogue, the bonus sneak attack damage can really kick in, especially if you manage to stun someone at the outset of a flurry. Since the monk's a mobility fighter, having rogue/monk levels with a lot of ranks in Tumble can give you many opportunities to flank. Plus, having extra damage from sneak attack means that against many opponents you can get away with having a lower Strength score, since the sneak attack damage can help to make up for having 1 or 2 points less in Strength bonus damage. The problem here is when you fight critters immune to sneak attacks, of course; it turns some of the rogue fighting problems into monk fighting problems.

I've always found that the key to playing a monk is recognizing that your character's goal is to tie up the enemy with maneuvers and to make point strikes on the battlefield against lightly-armored targets like enemy wizards. Having good saving throws in all categories means that the monk can often take the hit when going toe to toe with a wizard and manage to shrug off whatever the wizard throws (with Still Mind and Evasion really helping as well). High speed lets you move into position against foes who would normally be out of melee range. Tumble skill lets you avoid attacks of opportunity. Then you don't necessarily rely on throwing out a lot of damage with unarmed attacks or monk weapons; the 3/4 BAB combined with the penalty to flurry means that monks don't hit reliably against armored opponents. You strike on soft targets like that wizard with AC 12, or you use grappling, tripping, and disarming against hard targets, like that fighter with a magic greatsword. Don't expect the monk to fight like a fighter, standing up against an armored opponent that throws out high damage. Instead, dart in, tie up the enemy with combat maneuvers (that's why you get those bonus feats), and let your party's rogue and fighter dish out the heavy-duty damage once the enemy is stunned (sneak attack!), grappled (sneak attack!), or disarmed (and unable to do enough damage to stop your front-line fighter).

If your goal is to make a monk character that puts people in headlocks and proceeds to squash them like grapes, your best bet is instead to do a high-Strength monk variant that's all grappling all the time and rely heavily on Enlarge Person (for the size bonus to grapple). Once you have someone grabbed, flurry the crap outta the target and drag 'em toward your party's other fighters.

One last bit that worked really well for a friend of mine was to take a fighter or ranger level (for the martial weapon proficiencies) and then switch to monk and use a reach weapon, such as a longspear. Since monks can strike with their feet, elbows, and knees as well as fists, using a reach weapon doesn't prevent you from threatening the squares near you. If you take the Combat Reflexes feat, you have excellent area control in the area around you. Some reach weapons, notably the ranseur and the guisarme, let you make disarms or trips, so you can take advantage of those bonus feats as well. Plus, if your Wisdom score isn't that great, you could even choose to wear light armor at low levels and gain the benefits of the armor bonus to AC, if you don't mind sacrificing some of the monk abilities. (Remember, until monk 3, you don't even have a speed bonus, and flurry of blows is mostly whiff-tacular at the low end. Unlike a ranger, you don't lose your bonus feats for wearing armor, and you even keep your monk 2 evasion in light armor!)

Good luck!

[_metz_]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

The Beta version is free for download online by the way...

I am aware of this - I already have a copy of it. I have not read it however, as it is an expired Beta. I will wait for the full version, as the chance to comment on said rules is over, there is no point to analysing something that may be obsolete :)

[hogarth]

The problem with the monk class is that it's great for two levels, and then it gets progressively worse every level after that (except maybe for levels 6 and 11). So my idea of an "optimized monk" would be something like taking two levels of monk and then switching to something else like cleric or fighter or barbarian or druid.

[Greg Kilberger]

_metz_ wrote:

I am aware of this - I already have a copy of it. I have not read it however, as it is an expired Beta. I will wait for the full version, as the chance to comment on said rules is over, there is no point to analysing something that may be obsolete :)

Considering the organized play will be PFRP by august, and the builds listed go past 1st level, you might want to go ahead and consider the beta... since it's 3.5 that will be the obsolete one.

[hogarth]

Greg Kilberger wrote:

_metz_ wrote:

I am aware of this - I already have a copy of it. I have not read it however, as it is an expired Beta. I will wait for the full version, as the chance to comment on said rules is over, there is no point to analysing something that may be obsolete :)

Considering the organized play will be PFRP by august, and the builds listed go past 1st level, you might want to go ahead and consider the beta... since it's 3.5 that will be the obsolete one.

For now we're still playing 3.5. In August, we'll be able to do a complete (? almost complete?) character rewrite, so choices made for the 3.5 version of the character won't impact the PFRPG version. So we might as well stick with 3.5 suggestions for now.

[Gworeth]

_metz_ wrote:

Gworeth wrote:

Dex is used both offensive and defensive, and saves

Str is not nearly as important as it looks, since you are going to use your dex for combat, and the additional damage is not that great anyway...

Monk 1 Stunning Fist, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse
Monk 2 Agile Maneuvers
Monk 3 Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Monk 4 Boo!
Monk 5 Toughness (Yeah! 3hp +1/lv, retroactive is nice...)
Monk 6 Improved Disarm (Oh! and do go get yerself that sai... )
Monk 7 Improved natural attack (Can you feel that punk, huh?)
Monk 8 Booo!
Monk 9 Scorpion Style (Don't move chum! Sad that it's a fortitude save though...)
Monk 10 Medusa's wrath or Improved Critical (unarmed)

Most of this is incorrect, and includes stuff that is not permissible.

1. Weapon Finesse requires BaB of +1 so cannot be taken at first level.
2. Strength is essential to a monk build as a dex based monk has no other means of producing Damage. Also As monks are one of the only classes that gets FULL strength on Flurries/TWF Flurries then it is unwise not to take advantage of that.
3. Toughness does not add retroactive 1/level Hit points. It gives you THREE hit points, that is it - Read the PHB/SRD.
4. How is the Monk getting Improved Natural Attack at level 7? there is no available feat choice there
5. There is no such thing as Ki Points in 3.5 PHB only
6. Who takes Improved Initiative? (Bonus points if you get the reference)
7. Agile Manoeuvres/Scorpion Style/Medusa's Wrath are not core 3.5 rules.
8. Again, where are the feats at level 10 coming from?

Sorry if this seemed curt or harsh, but I needed to jump in and point out that this is not a 3.5 build. - Perhaps this has something to do with Pathfinder RPG? I am waiting for the published version before reading it, and so am unfamiliar with the mechanic.

Well, I just asumed that we were talking pathfinder. If we are not, then disregard my post. I can only say that, though it's 'only' beta, it's way better than 3.5 in so many ways IMHO. The monk I described was pretty much the monk I played until he died from massive damage and failed a 4+ save ;-). So yeah, this was not a 3.5 build. Haven't played 3.5 since the Alpha came out for testing ;-)

Cheers!

[DarkWhite]

Gworeth wrote:

Well, I just asumed that we were talking pathfinder. If we are not, then disregard my post. I can only say that, though it's 'only' beta, it's way better than 3.5 in so many ways...

With all due respect, this is a Pathfinder Society organised play thread, and the original poster asked for a Monk build for play in the Pathfinder Society organised play campaign. 3.5 core rules plus the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play are the only rules legally available for his character. These include equipment from the Campaign Setting hardcover (eg, aforementioned Temple Sword), and Faction Feats from the organised play guide, but no Beta-specific rules.

Though I'm sure it was an honest oversight, your suggestions could be helpful to players enjoying the Beta rules for the Adventure Paths and other home campaigns; however, I think it's important to be clear about what rules are Pathfinder Society legal, and not spread mis-information that might cause embarrassment to a player if caught out at a Pathfinder Society event.

PS, I also favour high-damage Strengh monks, but I also feel that players are often drawn to the monk class for story-telling flavour (eg, the non-lethal damage pacifist Monk), rather than power-builds, so identify your concept, and build toward that.

[Gworeth]

DarkWhite wrote:

Gworeth wrote:

Well, I just asumed that we were talking pathfinder. If we are not, then disregard my post. I can only say that, though it's 'only' beta, it's way better than 3.5 in so many ways...

With all due respect, this is a Pathfinder Society organised play thread, and the original poster asked for a Monk build for play in the Pathfinder Society organised play campaign. 3.5 core rules plus the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organised Play are the only rules legally available for his character. These include equipment from the Campaign Setting hardcover (eg, aforementioned Temple Sword), and Faction Feats from the organised play guide, but no Beta-specific rules.

Though I'm sure it was an honest oversight, your suggestions could be helpful to players enjoying the Beta rules for the Adventure Paths and other home campaigns; however, I think it's important to be clear about what rules are Pathfinder Society legal, and not spread mis-information that might cause embarrassment to a player if caught out at a Pathfinder Society event.

PS, I also favour high-damage Strengh monks, but I also feel that players are often drawn to the monk class for story-telling flavour (eg, the non-lethal damage pacifist Monk), rather than power-builds, so identify your concept, and build toward that.

Gawd I'm such a dolt! My bad! My eyes must have been inordinarily dull.. ;-) Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Cheers!

[_metz_]

hogarth wrote:

For now we're still playing 3.5. In August, we'll be able to do a complete (? almost complete?) character rewrite, so choices made for the 3.5 version of the character won't impact the PFRPG version. So we might as well stick with 3.5 suggestions for now.

What he said :)

As stated by Stephen as well, what matters is what YOUR monk is going to be like.

Most of mine tend to be 'Vudrani' themed, and their monks are a LOT different. (much more weapon oriented, less ninja/kung fu more Holy Warrior sect - Google 'Gatka' for some insider info and a demonstration of a lot of the 'Vudrani' weapons seen offered in Pathfinder...)

As I have no idea who Tiger is, (and frankly don't like modelling PCs off an established character unless it is a parody) I suggest it would be pertinent not to arbitrarily say 'make me a monk' But actually state what kind of character it is.

Hence all I can offer is the 'powerbuilt' info :P

[GentleGiant]

Gworeth wrote:

Gawd I'm such a dolt! My bad! My eyes must have been inordinarily dull.. ;-) Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Cheers!

Everyone rest assured, Gworeth shall be summarily punished within the week!

"Inordinarily dull"??? More like the usual ordinarily dull! :-p

[hogarth]

Here's my "monk" build:
Str 15
Dex 15
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 12
Cha 7

Fighter 1: TWF, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip
Rogue 1:
Rogue 2: Improved Unarmed Strike
Rogue 3: (+1 Str)
Fighter 2: Improved Grapple
Rogue 4: Improved Disarm

Keep going with levels in rogue. He fights in light armor with armor spikes and uses TWF with armor spikes and a two-handed tripping weapon (e.g. scythe or heavy flail or ogre hook or Osirian khopesh).

[Greg Kilberger]

I know there have been several posts about what is currently legal for PF Society, but one thing does need to be considered. Several of the suggestions (including the one above by hogarth) need to be considered with only limited usefulness, simply because the current ruleset (3.5 plus campaign guide) is only good until august. So unless you are planning to play in 18 PF scenarios before august, the 6 level progression above will be outdated. Since the conversion to PFRP will allow for a reworking of your character, the "beta" ideas are still sound for future consideration.

If you really want to crack out this monk, first figure out how many levels you are going to achieve before conversion. If you are only getting in 4 adventures before august...... it really isn't going to matter all that much. Just take 2 monk levels, and worry the long range stuff later.

[hogarth]

Greg Kilberger wrote:

I know there have been several posts about what is currently legal for PF Society, but one thing does need to be considered. Several of the suggestions (including the one above by hogarth) need to be considered with only limited usefulness, simply because the current ruleset (3.5 plus campaign guide) is only good until august. So unless you are planning to play in 18 PF scenarios before august, the 6 level progression above will be outdated.

Sure, in August he'll be able to start from scratch. But he still would like some suggestions today, presumably...

For a PFRPG monk (or "monk"), ask me again in 3 months. I'll probably recommend a sorcerer/dragon disciple at that point. :-)

[Greg Kilberger]

hogarth wrote:

For a PFRPG monk (or "monk"), ask me again in 3 months. I'll probably recommend a sorcerer/dragon disciple at that point. :-)

heck, I'll want to see that....

[Samuli]

hogarth wrote:

For a PFRPG monk (or "monk"), ask me again in 3 months. I'll probably recommend a sorcerer/dragon disciple at that point. :-)

I had the same idea. Can't wait to get my hands on the Sorcerer/Monk/Dragon Disciple sillyness :)

[Gworeth]

GentleGiant wrote:

Gworeth wrote:

Gawd I'm such a dolt! My bad! My eyes must have been inordinarily dull.. ;-) Sorry for any confusion I may have caused. Cheers!

Everyone rest assured, Gworeth shall be summarily punished within the week!

"Inordinarily dull"??? More like the usual ordinarily dull! :-p

Hey! Uncalled for! Well, no, it wasn't.

And I believe I will be punished... 'cause this coming sunday I'll spend on watching GG's crappy dicerolls that will result in a tpk... ;-P

[james maissen]

Xisiqomelir wrote:

Someone, please make me an unarmed, high-mobility, high-damage character build. I don't care if you use something like Fighter/Rogue to do it, I'm an old hand at mental re-fluffing.

Well if you are going to be mainly (or all) monk then you want a high strength. Really as high as you can afford. I would start with at least a 16 before racials if not higher.

If you are looking at the beta then I would suggest human and take a polearm as your free martial weapon. It goes wonderfully well with the free combat reflexes option. In 3.5 I would suggest the ranseur for the bonus to disarm, but others prefer the guisarme for the trip option YMMV.

I strongly suggest that almost all characters consider a 14 starting CON score before racials and only deviate from that with reason.

If you are not a wizard then the INT score deals mainly with your skills. Only buy what you need here. Monks do get awesome skills, but see what a 7 INT will allow you to have. As a human that's 3 skills/level which might be enough. If it's not see if 2 creation points is worth spending for another skill.

Now a decent DEX score is nice for you. It helps your combat reflexes, your evasion, your initiative, your shuriken throwing, and your (bad) AC. Putting some values here could be useful.

People tend to overvalue WIS for a monk. While it's nice it helping saves, AC, and skills it's not as essential as other things. Still decide if it's useful and invest here.

Your CHA will be a 7. It would be lower, but you're not allowed to do so.

One stat array that works would be (in Path BETA):

STR 19 (17 +2 for human)
INT 07
WIS 14
DEX 14
CON 14
CHA 07

This should have you hitting reasonably well with a reach weapon, flurrying with a staff or kicks.

Sadly quickdraw in BETA is more limited, so as to be not as useful for you as in 3.5. Still potions of enlarge, mage armor and shillelagh are your friend.

Until BETA rules (or the like are used) you could go with very similar spread. Take an 18 starting STR, lowering the WIS to a 12. Take martial weapon prof as your first level feat. And you should be good to go.

-James

[Purple Dragon Knight]

In Beta, the half-orc gets +2 to STR and WIS. Perfect monk.

[hogarth]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

In Beta, the half-orc gets +2 to STR and WIS. Perfect monk.

Yes and no. Because of the way the Pathfinder Society point buy works, a score of 7 (before racial adjustments) is worth quite a few bonus points. Compare the following two builds:

Human Monk
Str 18 (10 pts, +2 racial)
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts)
Int 7 (-4 pts)
Wis 15 (7 pts)
Cha 7 (-4 pts)

...and...

Orc Monk
Str 18 (10 pts, +2 racial)
Dex 14 (5 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts)
Int 7 (-1 pts)
Wis 16 (5 pts, +2 racial)
Cha 7 (-4 pts)

One point of wisdom in exchange for a bonus feat and a bonus skill point -- not as big a difference as you might think.

[Purple Dragon Knight]

Buy STR 18 (+2 racial = STR 20)
Buy WIS 15 (+2 racial = WIS 17)

Who really cares about the rest of the stats? :)

I can settle for a dumbass half-orc monk who picks his nose all the time while scratching his bad rash while tripping on his own feet if he can hit hard and be stubborn as a mule so as to make his will saves and get a better Wisdom-based AC...

:)

[james maissen]

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Buy STR 18 (+2 racial = STR 20)

Buy WIS 15 (+2 racial = WIS 17)

Who really cares about the rest of the stats? :)

CON is life.