Ok,
So after reading some of the threads on the PF item creation, I started looking through it, and noticed something. It appears (unless I missed it) that there is no listing for containers on the GP estimation. IE: Bag of Holding.
I have some items I'm giving my players soon as a reward, midlevel (8-10) items. One is new though. It was originally built by someone else who's game I was in, and I really liked it, so I'm putting it in. However, the item creation rules don't appear to cover it, so I thought I'd post the item and the GP I was going to use, and see what everyone thought.
Rings of Carrying
These ten rings are finely wrought from steel with silver and gold fillagre. They are worn, one on each finger of each hand. While wearing these rings, the wearer cannot wear or benefit from any other magical ring effects.
Each ring can 'store' a single item provided the item weighs less than 5 pounds, and takes up less than 1 cubic foot of space (absolute, not relative, so a quarterstaff that is 6 foot long but 1 inch thick is fine, an empty backpack that is 2 feet tall and 1 foot wide and 1 foot deep is not).
An empty ring has ornate designs on it, while one with an item shows that item in it's gold and silver designs. If the rings are removed while they are storing an item, the item appears in the nearest empty space next to the ring.
Storing or retrieving an item from one of the ten rings requires a swift action and a spoken (or whispered) command word combined with the name of the item to be retrieved. Storing an item which is also a magical storage item (such as a bag of holding) causes the rings magic to be destroyed, along with the magic of the storage item. All objects stored in the rings or storage item are lost. The wearer must have an empty hand to call forth an item, and the item must be able to be held in the hand. An item can be called to either hand (provided the above restrictions are met) regardless of which hand the ring holding the item is on.
All ten rings must be worn for the effect to work. If a ring is lost or destroyed, the items contained in the other rings cannot be retrieved (nor will they reappear if the rings are removed). A new ring can be forged and 'linked' to the others for 1/10th the cost of creating all 10 rings. Once linked, any items in the rings will appear next to them in the nearest empty space.
Aura: Moderate Conjuration (CL 9th)
Slot: Both Ring Slots
Price: 2,000gp
Weight: negligable
Reasoning: I think this is a straightforward alternative to a Type I Bag of Holding. The rings are much more convenient for storing or retrieving items, but can store less weight/volume of items. They also take up the characters ring slots. They can store 50 lbs of items or 10 cubic feet. I gave it a slight discount over the bag of holding due to the disadvantages being slightly more (compared to the bag of holding) than the advantages (mainly the losing your ring slots).
Thoughts?
Compre your rings to a Glove of Storing.
Your rings take up both ring slots. You can't even store items in them if you want to wear a ring of protection, or ring of regeneration, etc.
That's a steep slot requirements, consuming two slots. Glove of storing only consumes half of the hand slot (you couldn't use it with guantlets of STR since that requires both hands, but you could use it with another glove of storing, for example). Accordingly, this should make your rings cheaper than a glove of storing.
Your rings allow 10 items to be stored. That's a lot more than the glove of storing which only allows 1. This should make your rings more expensive than a glove of storing.
Your rings require a swift action to retrieve an item, but the glove of storing only requires a free action, which reduces the value of your rings, but only slightly.
The glove of storing can hold much bigger items than your rings, which reduces the value of your rings somewhat (these two items will mainly hold weapons and such - if you want to carry around sofas and chairs and kitchen tables, get a bag of holding).
Your rings have fairly strict restrictions about what happens if a ring is lost or stolen, and how hard it is to retrieve any items. On the other hand (no pun intended) items in a glove of storing that is lost or stolen are just as irretrievable, so I consider this a break-even.
Your rings cannot be put into a bag of holding or a haversack, but there is no overt ruling ont hat for a glove of storing, so maybe this ia a plus for the rings, but in truth, I'm pretty sure there is an overarching rule about putting any magical storage item into any other, which would then apply to the glove of storing and make this point a break-even as well.
Summing up:
Slot requirements: big reduction
10 items: big increase
Swift action: small reduction
Item size: small reduction
So, starting with the price of the glove of storing (10,000) I get a big reduction and big increase that cancel each other out, and two small reductions.
So no less than 5,000 gp, and maybe even more like 6,000 or even 7,500.
Two side notes:
1. Why is the glove of storing so expensive? Well, it allows you to produce a weapon out of thin air and still full attack with it in the same round. Someone with two gloves of storing can switch between two weapons instantly as two free actions in the same round, or switch between two magical wands, etc. An assassin could stab someone in a crowd and then make the dagger instantly vanish, even if he is searched by the guards. The combat applications are rather impressive.
And some non-combat applications too. A rogue can walk into a shop, make 1 (or 10) items disappear, and nobody can find them. Or consider if you're tied up with a rope. Grasp the rope and it vanishes into your rings/glove of storing and you can now walk away (this application is more likely if you can store 10 things than if you can only store 1).
Lots of handy (no pun intended) uses that aren't available with a mere bag of holding - and these handy uses can kill enemies and/or save lives in combat, which is next to impossible with just a bag of holding.
2. Both items, your rings and the glove of storing, leave out a major aspect of their activation that needs to be considered. What about contested items? Can a wearer reach out and grasp an enemie's shield, sword, or magic wand, then pop it into his ring or glove, even while that enemy is still holding it and trying to pull it away from you? What if you are fighting with a sword, and your enemy uses a disarm CMB againt you and succeeds. Can you use your instant Free or Swift action to put your sword into your glove/rings so that it isn't disarmed? On your next round, can you use a Free action to poof your sword back into your hand?
I would argue, as a DM, that you need free and clear possession of any item you want to store. If you want to store your opponent's ring of regeneration, you can't simply make a touch attack against the ring and poof it into your storage. You would actually have to take it from him and have clear possession first. You cannot disarm someone by grabbing their weapon - you have to take it from them first before you can store it. And you cannot store an item after losing a CMB check when someone disarms you - by then it's too late and you no longer have free and clear possession of the item.
Your rings have fairly strict restrictions about what happens if a ring is lost or stolen, and how hard it is to retrieve any items. On the other hand (no pun intended) items in a glove of storing that is lost or stolen are just as irretrievable, so I consider this a break-even.
Yeah,
I only put that in because with 10 items in 10 rings, I figured a lost or stolen ring would eventually need to be taken care of. I'm a stickler for details. :)
Your rings cannot be put into a bag of holding or a haversack, but there is no overt ruling ont hat for a glove of storing, so maybe this ia a plus for the rings, but in truth, I'm pretty sure there is an overarching rule about putting any magical storage item into any other, which would then apply to the glove of storing and make this point a break-even as well.
Absolutely,
I've always done that in game. The idea of putting a pocket dimension in another pocket dimension always seemed a BAD IDEA. :) And it's also a big cheat if you allow it in game (Fill 5 Haversacks with oil bottles, put them into another Haversack, repeat a dozen times, walk into the castle, start leaving bottles of oil all over the place, then set up some fire traps near the bottles of oil, instant conflagration).
Summing up:
Slot requirements: big reduction
10 items: big increase
Swift action: small reduction
Item size: small reductionSo, starting with the price of the glove of storing (10,000) I get a big reduction and big increase that cancel each other out, and two small reductions.
So no less than 5,000 gp, and maybe even more like 6,000 or even 7,500.
Meh,
Forgot about the Glove of Storing when I was looking for similar items. Thanks for pointing it out. It is a lot closer to the rings. And that gives a better base starting point. So I was thinking the rings were about 80% of the value of the sack, and that percentage works good for the glove too. So, 8,000gp?
Two side notes:1. Why is the glove of storing so expensive? Well, it allows you to produce a weapon out of thin air and still full attack with it in the same round. Someone with two gloves of storing can switch between two weapons instantly as two free actions in the same round, or switch between two magical wands, etc. An assassin could stab someone in a crowd and then make the dagger instantly vanish, even if he is searched by the guards. The combat applications are rather impressive.
And some non-combat applications too. A rogue can walk into a shop, make 1 (or 10) items disappear, and nobody can find them. Or consider if you're tied up with a rope. Grasp the rope and it vanishes into your rings/glove of storing and you can now walk away (this application is more likely if you can store 10 things than if you can only store 1).
Lots of handy (no pun intended) uses that aren't available with a mere bag of holding - and these handy uses can kill enemies and/or save lives in combat, which is next to impossible with just a bag of holding.
Absolutely,
I'm quite certain that most shopkeepers with expensive items wear lenses of true seeing, to notice things like magical gloves and rings. The ten rings would be quite obvious since they are rather unique. The gloves of storing (if worn in a pair) would be a bit harder to notice (as to what they were). Of course, I'd have to rule that when the shopkeeper chopped off the rogue's fingers, the items would pop out of the ring (since they wouldn't technically be being worn anymore). :)
2. Both items, your rings and the glove of storing, leave out a major aspect of their activation that needs to be considered. What about contested items? Can a wearer reach out and grasp an enemie's shield, sword, or magic wand, then pop it into his ring or glove, even while that enemy is still holding it and trying to pull it away from you? What if you are fighting with a sword, and your enemy uses a disarm CMB againt you and succeeds. Can you use your instant Free or Swift action to put your sword into your glove/rings so that it isn't disarmed? On your next round, can you use a Free action to poof your sword back into your hand?I would argue, as a DM, that you need free and clear possession of any item you want to store. If you want to store your opponent's ring of regeneration, you can't simply make a touch attack against the ring and poof it into your storage. You would actually have to take it from him and have clear possession first. You cannot disarm someone by grabbing their weapon - you have to take it from them first before you can store it. And you cannot store an item after losing a CMB check when someone disarms you - by then it's too late and you no longer have free and clear possession of the item.
Absolutely,
I've always considered things that let you store items to be only if you have uncontested control. I'd even say you couldn't store the ropes you are bound in because you can't hold the entire rope in your hand since you don't have control of it.
Great analysis Blake! I'd differ in just a couple points.
Costing two ring spots is definitely a reduction, but considering you're getting close to the affect of *10* gloves of storing, I don't think that large. Consider if these were just two rings of storing - each would cost 10k. Now add 8 more, slotless or additional - about 15k each, for 140k total.
Also Glove of Storing is *not* limited when it comes to bags of holding, haversacks, etc. The Glove of Storing is not extra-dimensional - it shrinks the item down to "fit in the palm of your hand". Generally that's considered the same, but theoretically you have a very small crossbow/rapier/whatever in your palm.
Overall I'd say the two slots, as its rather restrictive, would cut the price in half. I'd at least quadruple for the increased quantity (if not 10-fold, since you can't use all 10 at once). Taking 10% off for Swift and item size, and a bit more for the dimensional limitation, puts it at a floor of about 15000, IMHO. I'd personally rank it at about 30k, but I'm conservative on item prices.
As for price, the Glove of Storing is half the price in PFRPG as it was in 3.5 - and I knew *plenty* of people who would pay for one or more in 3.5.
Great analysis Blake! I'd differ in just a couple points.
Costing two ring spots is definitely a reduction, but considering you're getting close to the affect of *10* gloves of storing, I don't think that large. Consider if these were just two rings of storing - each would cost 10k. Now add 8 more, slotless or additional - about 15k each, for 140k total.
Also Glove of Storing is *not* limited when it comes to bags of holding, haversacks, etc. The Glove of Storing is not extra-dimensional - it shrinks the item down to "fit in the palm of your hand". Generally that's considered the same, but theoretically you have a very small crossbow/rapier/whatever in your palm.
Overall I'd say the two slots, as its rather restrictive, would cut the price in half. I'd at least quadruple for the increased quantity (if not 10-fold, since you can't use all 10 at once). Taking 10% off for Swift and item size, and a bit more for the dimensional limitation, puts it at a floor of about 15000, IMHO. I'd personally rank it at about 30k, but I'm conservative on item prices.
As for price, the Glove of Storing is half the price in PFRPG as it was in 3.5 - and I knew *plenty* of people who would pay for one or more in 3.5.
Ah,
But, even if it was 20 slots, you can still only use 2 items at a time (one in each hand). Considering that for 30K you could get 2 gloves of holding and a couple of haversacks... that's a bit much to charge.As to the gloves shrinking things... hmmm... If that's how they work, then they would be ok to 'store' in a sack.