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Here's an item I'd like my character to craft using the new magic item creation rules. It's more of an item of convenience so that I don't need to lug around 10 MW toolkits and gives an occasional save against screw ups. Please comment, especially on crunch.
Artificer’s Astounding Toolkit
Aura: Faint Divination CL: 5th
Price: 1000 gp Weight: 10 lbs
This battered but sturdy tool box contains a jumbled mess of finely-crafted tools, exotic material components, and lucky charms. It counts as a masterwork artisan’s kit for any craft skill (except for alchemy) and disable device checks. The box also contains the necessary tools for the creation of magic items and is a convenient place to store valuable material components for item creation.
Once per month, the user may re-roll a failed craft check to create a magic item. She must accept the new roll, even if it is a lower result or results in a cursed item.
There are rumours of more valuable kits magical tools that grant further bonuses to craft checks, but these are few and far between.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Guidance or Inspire Competence class ability, 500 gp, 1 day, Craft DC 10 (assuming all requirements are met)
Here's an item I'd like my character to craft using the new magic item creation rules.
I guess I missed this.
Where can I find these new rules?
Hmm, how strange.
I knew this web enhancement was there, but I already had the web enhancement with spells and magic items, and I thought the link on the Pathfinder home page was referencing that web enhancement.
Too many web enhancements...
As for the rules themselves, you might need to clarify your item just a little more.
For an enhancement bonus to a skill, the cost is bonus squared x 100. So if it only adds +2 to one single craft skil, it should cost 400 gp.
The second similar skill should be 75%, so +300 gp. Each extra similar skill should be 50%, so +200 gp.
Also, with multiple abilities on a single item, it says "multiply higher item cost x2). I am assuming, though I didn't see it specifically clarified, that if "multiple" means more than two, that all the higher priced abilities are multiplied x2 and the only ability not multiplied is the single cheapest one - seems the fairest way to interpret that.
So putting this all together, assuming only the craft skill listed in beta and excluding alchemy because you said so:
The base cost for each crafting skill is 400 gp. This is the proficiency bonus of +2 for masterwork, squared and x100 gp.
Craft Armorsmithing: 800 gp (base cost x 100% x2)
Craft Bowmaking: 600 gp (base cost x75% x2)
Craft Weaponsmithing: 400 (base cost x50% x2)
Craft Trapmaking: 200 (base cost x50% x1)
Now that's already 2,000 gp.
If we throw in all the other possible crafting skills, each at the same price as the Weaponsmithing price above, we could add Blacksmithing, Bronze Casting, Locksmithing (these first three are hinted at in the Pathfinder beta book), Woodworking, Glass Blowing, Jewelry, Leatherworking, Tailoring, Carpentry, Stone Masonry, Ship Building, Siege Weaponry, Basket Weaving, etc.
Each of those additional skills would be at +400 gp each.
How far should we take that?
That doesn't even include the benefit of rerolling once per month, but really, that's either a minor benefit or a huge benefit, or anywhere in between.
For example, a potion brewer can churn out (literally) 4 potions a day, 120 potions per 30-day month - rerolling one of them is a drop in the uh, er, cauldron.
Likewise with a scroll scriber.
But want to crank out a +4 sword, you only get to make one of them that entire month (it takes 32 days, actually), so rerolling just one failed check can save you from wasting a whole month's work.
I am not quite sure what to do with that ability. It's near meaningless to a potion maker and an incredible life saver to anyone who makes costly magic items. It's limited use and dissimilar to other magic items, but it is also dissimilar to any spell I know of (or else I would use the limited use spell cost rule for it).
Comparing to a luck blade, 8,300 gp is the cost of the +2 sword. Additionally, it gives +1 on all saves which should also cost 1,000 more gold, but we should also multiply the higher cost power by 2 since there are multiple powers on the luckblade. That already prices it at 5,000 gp more than the listed price, before I even examine the cost of the daily reroll.
Assuming they forgot to double, or chose not to follow this rule, then they have basically left about 1800 gp as the cost to reroll any one roll once per day.
But that's just conjecture since the luckblade is clearly mispriced to begin with.
So, maybe that monthly reroll is worth 500 gp. I bet its not worth that much to a woodworker or a potion brewer, but it's worth at least 10x that much to a serious magic item crafter.
And what about the transdimensional space? That must be worth something. It's like a toolbox of holding, containing all the tools and room to add materials too (materials not included - see box cover for details).
That's gotta be worth something. And it's dissimilar, so it's 50% more than it would be by itself.
Still, you limited it, so people won't be carrying their swords and wands and dragon hoards in there. Just tools and raw materials. Hard to value that, too.
Maybe a nice round ballpark figure like 500 gp for that.
That might be a bit pricey, but I think I was soft on the value of the reroll, so I'll call it even.
So, only applying to the 4 skills I listed, I make this out to be a 3,000 gp item.
More or less.
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I think that price is ridiculous, given that you can get a Handy Haversack and put in 10 sets of masterwork tools, picks and an alchemist's lab for the same cost and half the weight (5 pounds for the HH). 3000 GP also puts it on par in power with a +1 sword and a suit of +1 amrour. I don't think it matches that yardstick.
I could see pricing out by the individual skill if you were adding a bonus to a series of individual and distinct skills (appraise, bluff, climb, perception etc.), but this is really only one skill with an infinite number of subskills (weaponsmithing, armoursmithing, trapmaking, basketweaving etc...). At some point you have to draw the line.
Given the relatively small benefit and limited scope of the item, I'd price it a lot lower.
I think the price is right for a tool kit that grants you +2 bonus to all craft checks (although you might exclude alchemy for the flavour). This effect is mostly flavour, so i don't think it should be more expensive.
I really don't know about the ability to reroll the magic item creation checks. It can make the world of difference when creating magic items and almost entirely remove the risk of wasting the components.
It is difficult to price since it isn't comparable to any spells. It is similar to a cleric casting a bit of luck on your, but there is no way of pricing school and domain powers (and they are generally not availiable to magic item creation).
But in defense of the reroll, an alternative (and better) would be to add a +10 competence bonus to spell craft 1/day. This would cost an additional 2000 gp. But this has more uses than magic item creation, so it is better than the strict magic item creation reroll (and I would prefer +10 rather than this as well).
All in all, I would properly set the price to 2000 all in all. It cannot be priced based the magic item creation rules. But 2000 seems fair to me. Not too cheap, but not too expensive either considering the alternatives you have.
Another way to do it (based on the fluff of the item) was to say that it is only able to reroll magic item creation rolls using a craft skill (and not spellcraft). Of course this might not be interesting for your character, and generally only the non-caster with the Master Craftman feat.
I think your good to go as is.
WOTC released similar items with similar prices in FR. Upon updating to 3.5 the irems were kept as is while many other items were nerfed. Granted they were Item Category Specific but the bonuses were higher.
I would give the item a thumbs up in my campaigns.
EDIT: Are you in an Eberron Campaign? I found the Artificer to be a cool concept but not one I wanted play too often. My players however like the class alot.
What if we cut out the re-roll entirely? How would you cost that?
All in all, I would properly set the price to 2000 all in all. It cannot be priced based the magic item creation rules. But 2000 seems fair to me. Not too cheap, but not too expensive either considering the alternatives you have.
I would say 1000 gp. This makes it a really cheap magic item (compared to boots of elvenkind at 2500 for a single +5 bonus). Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.
Adding some calculation based on the rules, I might price the craft abilities as one charge per day, since that is what you effectively can use most of the time.
+ 2 disable device (100%): 400
+ 2 craft armorsmithing 1/day (75%): 60
+ 2 craft weaponsmithing 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft bowmaking 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft trapfinding 1/day (50%: 40
This leaves 420 gp other possible crafts, as well as the possibility to carry all your crafting components with you.
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What if we cut out the re-roll entirely? How would you cost that?I would say 1000 gp. This makes it a really cheap magic item (compared to boots of elvenkind at 2500 for a single +5 bonus). Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.
Sounds reasonable. I'll run this version up the flagpole and see who salutes. :) I could eventually make some sort of "Chronocharm of the Crtl+Z" to allow the re-roll.
Sounds reasonable. I'll run this version up the flagpole and see who salutes. :) I could eventually make some sort of "Chronocharm of the Crtl+Z" to allow the re-roll.
What if we cut out the re-roll entirely? How would you cost that?I would say 1000 gp. This makes it a really cheap magic item (compared to boots of elvenkind at 2500 for a single +5 bonus). Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.
That seems a reasonable price to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse the 'store components' aspect. If it just stores tools, that makes it more reasonable. Either that, or limit it to a certain amount of space (Say 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs of material). A bag of holding is 2,500gp and holds 30 cubic feet/250lbs of weight. At 1,000, I'd expect about half that. Take up some of it for the tools (most of which are heavy metal) and 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs left over sounds right.
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Taking a different approach all the tools could just be mundane and you could make a "tool box of holding" weight 5 lbs, can hold up to 100 lbs and up to 10 cubic fee in volume, and it is is well compartmentalized for easy access and sorting. All for about 1000 g? (just trying to extrapolate a "bag of holding type 0")
Then once crafted, you just put masterwork tools in it, as depending on the craft they range from 50 - 100.
<edit>opened started typing, walked away and the guy above had the same idea</edit>
It's your item and your game, so do with it what you want. But some of the logic in the various responses here falls a little flat.
The initial item is quite powerful to the right craftsmen. It stores a lot, gives a lot of skill bonuses, and allows a potentially hugely beneficial reroll.
This is far more valuable than just limited bag of holding or handy haversack full of tools.
I have to ask, OP: Are you pricing this like a DM who wants a fair and just price, or like a player who wants a cool item for as cheap as he can talk his DM into offering it?
I think that price is ridiculous, given that you can get a Handy Haversack and put in 10 sets of masterwork tools, picks and an alchemist's lab for the same cost and half the weight (5 pounds for the HH).
But it won't reroll your failures.
Further, it will only add to those 10 craft skills. If you tried something else, not covered by those 10 sets of tools, then you would get no bonus, and might not be able to use that skill at all since you would not have any tools for it.
3000 GP also puts it on par in power with a +1 sword and a suit of +1 amrour. I don't think it matches that yardstick.
An adventuring fighter needs magical weapons and armor. True. And +1 longsword (2315 gp) and +1 chainmail (1300 gp) costs a total of 3615 gp, more than this toolbox.
But an artificer has no need for such weapons and armor (heck, he'll be making them soon enough) and the ability to always have his tools at hand, and always have +2 on the rolls, and be able to reroll failures on the big projects guarantees he'll successfully make those other items, and much more, soon enough. That 3,000 gp investment will earn dividends immediately, and will pay for itself in under a month, and will make the artificer filthy rich in under a year.
I could see pricing out by the individual skill if you were adding a bonus to a series of individual and distinct skills (appraise, bluff, climb, perception etc.), but this is really only one skill with an infinite number of subskills (weaponsmithing, armoursmithing, trapmaking, basketweaving etc...). At some point you have to draw the line.
By that same logic, we should just have one craft skill. You put a skill point in Craft (Everything) and you gain the ability to craft anything you want. No need to spend separate skill points in different craft skills because it's really only one skill with an infinite number of subskills.
I agree with you though. At some point, you have to draw the line.
This effect is mostly flavour, so i don't think it should be more expensive.
I disagree.
Now that crafting magic items doesn't cost any XP, people can do it all day long, crafting anything they want. There is nothing stopping a good craftsman from whipping up a magical christmas tree for the whole party if he has enough time.
This could be rather damaging to an ongoing campaign, particularly in low-magic games.
That's a whole lot more than just mere flavor.
Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.
True, you will never use every craft skill possible, but you will use the ones that matter the most to you. And it's not flavor to equip your character and his party with exactly the magic items they are lacking and therefore need the most.
Adding some calculation based on the rules, I might price the craft abilities as one charge per day, since that is what you effectively can use most of the time.
That's a risky premise, assuming you can only effectively use one charge per day. Write it that way in the item to make sure, so it should say something like "You can only use this toolbox to apply the masterwork proficiency bonus to one Craft skill roll per day."
Otherwise, this premise is false.
Brew Potion and Scribe Scroll can each be used 4 times per day, per RAW.
Aiding another craftsman is a gray area, but potentially can be done more than once per day.
And what if multiple craftsmen share one magical toolbox for different skills? Can a blacksmith and a weaponsmsith and an armorsmith and a jeweler all gather in a room somewhere and whip up a set of +1 sword, +1 armor, +1 ring of protection, and a +1 amulet of natural armor, all sharing the one toolbox and each only getting one enhanced roll per day?
+ 2 disable device (100%): 400
+ 2 craft armorsmithing 1/day (75%): 60
+ 2 craft weaponsmithing 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft bowmaking 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft trapfinding 1/day (50%): 40
You do realize that some of these costs, to add a permanent magical effect to an item, are cheaper than actually just buying the tools off the street?
I would say 1000 gp.That seems a reasonable price to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse the 'store components' aspect. If it just stores tools, that makes it more reasonable. Either that, or limit it to a certain amount of space (Say 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs of material). A bag of holding is 2,500gp and holds 30 cubic feet/250lbs of weight. At 1,000, I'd expect about half that. Take up some of it for the tools (most of which are heavy metal) and 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs left over sounds right.
So let's follow that math.
You're saying an extra dimensional storage area that costs 40% of the price of a Bag of Holding should store 50% of the volume of that same Bag of Holding. Usually you get 'volume discounts' for getting bigger stuff, not smaller stuff.
Then you fill 1/3 of the available volume and 2/3 of the available weight limit with the tools, which seems fair.
And you use this to justify 1,000 gp price for the extra dimensional space. That might even be mostly fair, though maybe 1250 gp would be more suitable to your initial premise. But who's to quibble over 250 gp, even if it is 25% of the price we're discussing.
But that fails to take into consideration the +2 proficiency bonus to every possible craft skill known to man. Shouldn't that be priced over and above the 1,000 (or 1,250) gp for the extra dimensional storage space?
Taking a different approach all the tools could just be mundane and you could make a "tool box of holding" weight 5 lbs, can hold up to 100 lbs and up to 10 cubic fee in volume, and it is is well compartmentalized for easy access and sorting. All for about 1000 g? (just trying to extrapolate a "bag of holding type 0")
Then once crafted, you just put masterwork tools in it, as depending on the craft they range from 50 - 100.
This is the best idea yet. How about this:
For 1,000 GP you get a Tricky Toolbox (ok, bad name, but I was looking for the same alliteration as Handy Haversack). How about Tenser's Tricky Toolbox? :)
This toolbox can hold approximately 100 pounds and 10 cubic feet in volume, but it is broken into 10 storage compartments, each capable of holding approximately 10 pounds and 1 cubic foot of gear, though some compartments might be slightly larger or smaller, and might even resize themselves, slightly, based on contents. Only one compartment may be open at a time.
Each compartment can hold 1 set of tools appropriate for one crafting skill. Blacksmithing, jewel crafting, carpentry, basket weaving, whatever. So the Tricky Toolbox can hold up to 10 sets of tools.
Each compartment can hold, in addition to the tools, enough raw components to work on one crafting project of that sort. So a compartment might hold, for example, all the tools necessary to use the skill Craft (weaponsmithing) plus the necessary components and raw materials to make one weapon.
The price of 1,000 gp is for an empty Tricky Toolbox. There may be additional costs for tools, or masterwork tools, or raw materials, that might be contained within.
This is a short version, may need a bit of fluffing out. And it makes no reference to rerolls since that seemed to be dropped part way through the thread.
Now, as for me, I would go with 3,000 (though some of the arguments here might convince me to rethink that down to maybe 2,500) for the item originally posted. For the final item I just described, 1,000 gp seems fair, but the artificer must supply the masterwork tools if he wants any +2 modifiers to his skill checks, and he'll never get +2 to every craft skill known to man since the toolbox only holds 10 sets of tools.
But as I said at the start, it's your game and your item, so do as you wish.
mdt wrote:HaraldKlak wrote:
I would say 1000 gp.
That seems a reasonable price to me. As long as the player doesn't abuse the 'store components' aspect. If it just stores tools, that makes it more reasonable. Either that, or limit it to a certain amount of space (Say 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs of material). A bag of holding is 2,500gp and holds 30 cubic feet/250lbs of weight. At 1,000, I'd expect about half that. Take up some of it for the tools (most of which are heavy metal) and 10 cubic feet and 50 lbs left over sounds right.
So let's follow that math.
You're saying an extra dimensional storage area that costs 40% of the price of a Bag of Holding should store 50% of the volume of that same Bag of Holding. Usually you get 'volume discounts' for getting bigger stuff, not smaller stuff.
Then you fill 1/3 of the available volume and 2/3 of the available weight limit with the tools, which seems fair.
And you use this to justify 1,000 gp price for the extra dimensional space. That might even be mostly fair, though maybe 1250 gp would be more suitable to your initial premise. But who's to quibble over 250 gp, even if it is 25% of the price we're discussing.
But that fails to take into consideration the +2 proficiency bonus to every possible craft skill known to man. Shouldn't that be priced over and above the 1,000 (or 1,250) gp for the extra dimensional storage space?
Ok,
First off, my assumption was that the +2 would come from the MW toolkits (which is built into them, not a magical bonus). The Toolkits you store in the item. Note I said originally, store the tools. I should have made that more clear. I am taking this as a tool kit STORAGE device. Kind of like a lunchbox, it doesn't come with the lunch.To my way of thinking, exactly which plus's it gives depends on which toolkits you can store in it. The reduction from 2,500 to 1,000 is, to me, a reduction based on the targeted nature of the storage. It will only store toolkits, not your sword, not your armor, etc.
So, if we assume 20 cubic feet of toolkits or 200 lbs of tools (more likely 200 lbs), that seems reasonable. Now, the book says Artisan's tools are 5lbs (I think that's a rediculously low weight for Blacksmithing, or stonecunning, but that's the weight). So, fixed storage for the following kits :
MW Bowmaking (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Stonecunning (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Armorsmithing (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Trapmaking (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Blacksmithing (pots, horeshoes, etc) (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Carpentry (5lbs, 55gp)
MW Leatherworking (shoes, gloves, pants, etc) (5lbs, 55gp)
That's 35 lbs, and probably close to 5 cubic feat of tools.
So, I guess we could put a whole bunch more in. Exactly what craft skills get bonus's depends on which kits you buy to put into it. The above 7 would cost an additional 385gp.
Now, for 435gp you could buy a mule and put all 7 kits on it and drag it around. It's cheap but a pain. For 1,385 you could carry around one 5lb toolbox that held all those. I don't even see a reason why you couldn't put alchemy tools in the toolbox (it would take up 40lbs and probably 3 or 4 cubic feet all by itself).
So yes, I consider 1,000 a reasonable price for what is, essentially, a really convenient way of carrying half a dozen MW toolkits without hauling a mule around.
If it bothers you, charge 2,500 for it, but if you do that, I'd throw in 6 free toolkits, since a bag of holding would be better than this item then (since this item only holds toolkits, and some small amounts of material).
On a seperate note, while not trying to be rude, I will say that your posts tend to come accross as rather sarcastic at times, at least to me. Not trying to be rude, as I said, just saying it's a bit of a turnoff when trying to have discussions.
Taking a different approach all the tools could just be mundane and you could make a "tool box of holding" weight 5 lbs, can hold up to 100 lbs and up to 10 cubic fee in volume, and it is is well compartmentalized for easy access and sorting. All for about 1000 g? (just trying to extrapolate a "bag of holding type 0")
Then once crafted, you just put masterwork tools in it, as depending on the craft they range from 50 - 100.
<edit>opened started typing, walked away and the guy above had the same idea</edit>
*nod*
Exactly, just a storage device. What bonus's you get, if any, are just based on what you put into it.|
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Now, as for me, I would go with 3,000 (though some of the arguments here might convince me to rethink that down to maybe 2,500) for the item originally posted. For the final item I just described, 1,000 gp seems fair, but the artificer must supply the masterwork tools if he wants any +2 modifiers to his skill checks, and he'll never get +2 to every craft skill known to man since the toolbox only holds 10 sets of tools.
First off, let me thank you for taking the considerable time it's taken you to put forth your arguments. Well thought out and appreciated.
The reason I wanted to have the "All in One" toolbox is to avoid having to keep track of exactly what toolkits are being carried. With mundane tool kits, I'm sure you could reduce the size/weight by weeding out the redundant tools and containers (a sledgehammer is a sledgehammer for pounding out bars, and you only need so many paintbrushes to illuminate or paint a canvas).
Right now, my character only needs 2 artisan's kits, pickss and the requisite tools to create wondrous items and arms and amour, so I can just use up one pocket of a Handy Haversack to stow all of that. It would be just better for game play to not have to keep track of all of these gewgaws and just have one catchall item. The re-roll is just an extra bonus and I thought it'd be neat to add in.
What if, rather than using an extradimensional space to store stuff, the box functions under a conjuration (creation) effect that temporarily creates the tools you pull out of the box, and they disappear when you put it back? It would only work for one user at a time (requires attunement like a ring of sustenance or headband of intellect). How would that work/cost?
What if, rather than using an extradimensional space to store stuff, the box functions under a conjuration (creation) effect that temporarily creates the tools you pull out of the box, and they disappear when you put it back? It would only work for one user at a time (requires attunement like a ring of sustenance or headband of intellect). How would that work/cost?
Unlimited space, unlimited coverage of every Craft(x) skill in existence, but no spece for components/materials and no reroll?
Well, the Web Enhancement still says bonus squared x 100 gp. 2 squared x 100 is 400 GP.
But that applies to just one skill, not all Craft(x) skills.
Just applying the rules as written to two skills should cost 1,400 gp. Four skills would be 2,000 gp.
Maybe I would cap it there and say that for all practical purposes, in the hands of one single user (attunement), there is little practical difference between 4 skills and 40 (how many craftsmen are pumping out masterwork (or enchanted masterwork) items in more than 4 different skills?), so there is little reason to continue extending the price to cover every possible skill - let's just leave it at the price for 4 skills.
Hence, I would probably go with 2,000 gp based on the pricing rules.
But then I would probably agree that this is just a flavor item, since it no longer has extra dimensional storage spece for materials, and no longer has insurance against bad skill checks.
2,000 GP is steep to replace just 4 (or 40) masterwork crafting tools. But it still is magical. Magic items aren't free.
So I would be looking to reduce the steep price down to 1,000, 1,200, 1,250, or 1,500 gp. Somewhere in there.
I might then give it the old acid test.
I would ask myself, if I were a craftsmen (adventurer or otherwise), and I had that much coin and wanted to buy this item, but the Magic-Mart had all the other items in the book for sale too, would I still get this item insead of anything else?
If the answer is "Heck yah!" then the price is too low.
If the answer is "Probably yes." then the price is maybe just a little low, but maybe OK.
If the answer is "Maybe." then the price is just right.
If the answer is "Probably no." then the price is maybe just a little high, but maybe OK.
If the answer is "Heck no!" then the price is too high.
By way of comparison, I have alway thought that Heward's Handy Haversack was underpriced in 3.x. For years, when my PCs would go into a shop or bazarre or mage's guild or whatever, looking to buy magic items, if a HHH was on the shelf they bought it, no questions asked, unless they had one. Even fighters would usually snarf that up before getting magic weapons or armor, if they had the choice.
So I doubled the price, and still some PCs bought them, but others went for magic weapons or wands or whatever, which led me to believe that the doubled price was probably fair.
I would guess that by this "acid test" method, an NPC in town who has his own workshop would rather save his money and buy the masterwork toolkits for his shop. But a traveling artificer (like a PC, or a gypsy NPC) might prefer the magical toolbox - up to a price.
Not all items are for everyone.
Not everybody buys a ShamWow.
Items are always priced according to the niche they fill. For example, I will never buy a Ferrari. Even if I am ever that rich, I prefer a different kind of ride. To me, Ferraris are way overpriced. But they sell quite well to other people who have different driving needs than mine. Within that niche, Ferraris are priced correctly.
So your magical toolbox should be priced according to what the target market needs. The target market is not the guy in town with a secure workshop. Instead, price the toolbox according to traveling artificers who must travel light.
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I like your pricing guideline! I'll keep that in mind for future endeavours. Meanwhile, I think that 1250 sounds like a good middle ground. You're paying for the convenience, but not giving up the farm for it.
BTW everyone should own at least 4 Shamwows. It's like reusable dust of dryness in cloth form! :)
Zim's "Zamazing" Toolkit
Aura: Moderate Conjuration(creation) CL: 7th
Price: 1250 gp Weight: 10 lbs
This battered but sturdy tool box contains a jumbled mess of finely-crafted tools, exotic material components, and lucky charms. On command, it will magically create any masterwork tool required to perform a craft or disable device check. The conjured equipment is also sufficient to count as a workshop for item creation feats.
The items created by the toolbox are themselves non-magical and only the owner of the toolbox may use them. They dissappear if left unattended for more than a few minutes or handed to another person.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Minor Creation, 625 gp, 2 days, Craft DC 12 (assuming all requirements are met)
Zim's "Zamazing" Toolkit
Aura: Moderate Conjuration(creation) CL: 7th
Price: 1250 gp Weight: 10 lbs
Looks rather decent to me.
For my 2 coppers, the best comparison is the Circlet of Persuasion - +3 to all Charisma checks for 4500.
Priced down to +2 it would be 2000. Change that from All Charisma to All Craft checks and I think halving the price would be about right (particularly since you may use many many charisma checks in a day, but rarely more than one craft check).
The reroll the first version had is indeed hard to price. It's not an auto-success (like a true strike equivalent). There is that Torag spell that gives a reroll, also 1st level - 10 min/level duration. So 2000*1*1*1.5 (for 10min/lvl) = 3000. Divide by 5 for 1/day = 600. Divide by 7 for 1/week =~ 100... Since this would only be useful 1/day max *anyways*, let's start the 3000 there. Divide by 7 for 1/week =~400. Reducing price less than 1/week is questionable.
So maybe 1500 for the whole shebang. SUBJECT TO DM APPROVAL This is the sort of item that every crafter will... craft first thing - to avoid curses and failures that may be inevitable, and would cost far more than this item to make.
This is the sort of item that every crafter will... craft first thing - to avoid curses and failures that may be inevitable, and would cost far more than this item to make.
This statement right there is the "acid test" I was talking about.
If this is a must have for someone, in this case "every crafter", then it needs to be priced based on that niche.
If this is the first thing they will make, well, then maybe it's too easy to make.
One easy way to adjust who can make it, and when, is to adjust the price. If every crafter had to start out making items the old-fashioned way, whip up a workbench full of magical swords and armor to sell for enough profit that they could afford to make the toolbox, then maybe it wouldn't be the first thing every crafter would make.
Another way to limit it would be to base it on spells that are hard to come by. What if you need a wish or miracle to make this toolbox (that changes the price too, methinks)?
Yeah, wish/miracle is going too far - it was just an example of a way to keep every Tom, Dick, and Harry from whipping up their own magical toolbox first.
But as for the "acid test", if everyone goes for it first thing, then it is too cheap or too powerful or too easy to make. Something should be tweaked to balance it.
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Another way to limit it would be to base it on spells that are hard to come by. What if you need a wish or miracle to make this toolbox (that changes the price too, methinks)?Yeah, wish/miracle is going too far - it was just an example of a way to keep every Tom, Dick, and Harry from whipping up their own magical toolbox first.
But as for the "acid test", if everyone goes for it first thing, then it is too cheap or too powerful or too easy to make. Something should be tweaked to balance it.
That's why I changed to minor creation as the requirement. It needs a 7th level caster, so you can't make it right out of the gate without considerable difficulty (base DC 12, +5 for not meeting CL, +5 for not having the spell =DC 22 to make it).
So, does the revised version seem more palatable? :)
This effect is mostly flavour, so i don't think it should be more expensive.I disagree.
Now that crafting magic items doesn't cost any XP, people can do it all day long, crafting anything they want. There is nothing stopping a good craftsman from whipping up a magical christmas tree for the whole party if he has enough time.
This could be rather damaging to an ongoing campaign, particularly in low-magic games.
That's a whole lot more than just mere flavor.
You might be right about that, but if you my comment (which replies to an earlier one) it is quite clear that the reroll to magic item creation has been removed from consideration. So I fail to see how this in any way is relevant to the discussion.
Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.True, you will never use every craft skill possible, but you will use the ones that matter the most to you. And it's not flavor to equip your character and his party with exactly the magic items they are lacking and therefore need the most.
I really don't see the point of stating the same thing two times in a row. It doesn't make it more true, or in this case, relevant to my post.
Adding some calculation based on the rules, I might price the craft abilities as one charge per day, since that is what you effectively can use most of the time.That's a risky premise, assuming you can only effectively use one charge per day. Write it that way in the item to make sure, so it should say something like "You can only use this toolbox to apply the masterwork proficiency bonus to one Craft skill roll per day."
Otherwise, this premise is false.
I think you are quite quick to declare my premise outright false. And I am not sure what you exactly mean with you comment.
If you mean that it is "one of each Craft skill roll per day", then you are correct. And in this case I don't see what the discussion is. Craft are never used more frequently than once a day, so really no need to write it explicitly and add to the word count.If you, as written, are implying that it can only be used for one roll of a single craft skill, then you are mistaken. The rules state that you add the prices of multiple abilities (which are cheaper when they are similar). The 1/day charge is applied to each ability and modifying the price of these.
By this calculation I can't see why you would make the whole item one charge per day?
+ 2 disable device (100%): 400
+ 2 craft armorsmithing 1/day (75%): 60
+ 2 craft weaponsmithing 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft bowmaking 1/day (50%): 40
+ 2 craft trapfinding 1/day (50%): 40
You do realize that some of these costs, to add a permanent magical effect to an item, are cheaper than actually just buying the tools off the street?
Yes I realize that. But that is the rules as written, so I can't really change that.
I like your pricing guideline! I'll keep that in mind for future endeavours. Meanwhile, I think that 1250 sounds like a good middle ground. You're paying for the convenience, but not giving up the farm for it.
BTW everyone should own at least 4 Shamwows. It's like reusable dust of dryness in cloth form! :)
Zim's "Zamazing" Toolkit
Aura: Moderate Conjuration(creation) CL: 7th
Price: 1250 gp Weight: 10 lbs
This battered but sturdy tool box contains a jumbled mess of finely-crafted tools, exotic material components, and lucky charms. On command, it will magically create any masterwork tool required to perform a craft or disable device check. The conjured equipment is also sufficient to count as a workshop for item creation feats.The items created by the toolbox are themselves non-magical and only the owner of the toolbox may use them. They dissappear if left unattended for more than a few minutes or handed to another person.
Requirements: Craft Wondrous Item, Minor Creation, 625 gp, 2 days, Craft DC 12 (assuming all requirements are met)
I really like this version.
A small side note, how does the exotic material components part function? I assume that they still has to be aquired elsewhere, and isn't conjured like the tools.
None of this is relevent anymore, since the OP found a different way to create this item, but since you asked:
You might be right about that, but if you my comment (which replies to an earlier one) it is quite clear that the reroll to magic item creation has been removed from consideration. So I fail to see how this in any way is relevant to the discussion.This effect is mostly flavour, so i don't think it should be more expensive.I disagree.
Now that crafting magic items doesn't cost any XP, people can do it all day long, crafting anything they want. There is nothing stopping a good craftsman from whipping up a magical christmas tree for the whole party if he has enough time.
This could be rather damaging to an ongoing campaign, particularly in low-magic games.
That's a whole lot more than just mere flavor.
I don't see any reference to "just rerolling" in either your comment or mine. I thought you were talking about the whole toolbox, and I certainly was. Neither of us seem to be limiting our comments, at that time, to the proposed toolbox without the reroll.
I really don't see the point of stating the same thing two times in a row. It doesn't make it more true, or in this case, relevant to my post.
Still I think it should this cheap because it is mostly a flavour item, and you properly don't get the use of every craft skill possible.True, you will never use every craft skill possible, but you will use the ones that matter the most to you. And it's not flavor to equip your character and his party with exactly the magic items they are lacking and therefore need the most.
And yet you mentioned flavor twice. So, I reiterated my objection to calling it flavor as often as you actually called it flavor.
Adding some calculation based on the rules, I might price the craft abilities as one charge per day, since that is what you effectively can use most of the time.That's a risky premise, assuming you can only effectively use one charge per day. Write it that way in the item to make sure, so it should say something like "You can only use this toolbox to apply the masterwork proficiency bonus to one Craft skill roll per day."
Otherwise, this premise is false.
I think you are quite quick to declare my premise outright false. And I am not sure what you exactly mean with you comment.
If you mean that it is "one of each Craft skill roll per day", then you are correct. And in this case I don't see what the discussion is. Craft are never used more frequently than once a day, so really no need to write it explicitly and add to the word count.If you, as written, are implying that it can only be used for one roll of a single craft skill, then you are mistaken. The rules state that you add the prices of multiple abilities (which are cheaper when they are similar). The 1/day charge is applied to each ability and modifying the price of these.
By this calculation I can't see why you would make the whole item one charge per day?
What I said was that the initial premise, that each Craft(x) skill could only be rolled once per day, was possibly a false premise.
What about scribing scrolls or brewing potions? The rules allow for those crafting jobs to only take 2 hours.
Suppose a potter decides to use this toolbox to make 8 clay mugs (2cp each) for the local tavern, 2 clay pitchers (3cp each) for the inn, and a clay spittoon (3cp) for the jail. How do you proceed?
Me, I see that as three separate orders with 3 separate skill rolls. And the whole thing, all three orders, would easily be completed in a day unless the potter fails his rolls miserably.
Sure, PCs don't make clay doodads for local businesses.
Regardless, the nifty magical toolbox might.
Another example might be a pair of weaponsmiths. One of them has this toolbox. Alfred is making a sword, Bill is making an axe. For an 8 hour workday, they both work on Alfred's sword, using tools from the toolbox. Alfred makes the daily progress roll and Bill makes an aid-another roll. That's already two rolls from the toolbox today. They have supper, then work 8 hours on Bill's axe. Bill makes the daily progress roll and alfred aids another. Now we're up to four rolls in one day.
I don't see where the rules forbid doing either of these things.
So either write it into the item's description that it can only be used for one roll per day, or one roll per skill per day, or don't assume there will never be a reason to use it more than once.
And if it's not limited to one use per day, then it shouldn't be priced like it is.
Yes I realize that. But that is the rules as written, so I can't really change that.You do realize that some of these costs, to add a permanent magical effect to an item, are cheaper than actually just buying the tools off the street?
+ 2 disable device (100%, x2): 400
+ 2 craft armorsmithing 1/day (75%, x2): 60
+ 2 craft weaponsmithing 1/day (50%, x2): 40
+ 2 craft bowmaking 1/day (50%, x2): 40
+ 2 craft trapfinding 1/day (50%, x1): 40
You forgot to double the price for multiple different abilities.
I disagree with the idea of assuming the crafting skills are 1 use/day, but if the item is written specifically that this is the case, then you still need to price according to all the rules, not just some of them.
I quote:
Multiple different abilities: Multiply higher item cost by 2
Craft is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Craft skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill.
These two quotes seem pretty clear to me. The higher priced abilities are all doubled.
So fixing your pricelist (and allowing for the item to specify one use per day):
+ 2 disable device (100%): 800
+ 2 craft armorsmithing 1/day (75%): 120
+ 2 craft weaponsmithing 1/day (50%): 80
+ 2 craft bowmaking 1/day (50%): 80
+ 2 craft trapfinding 1/day (50%): 40
That's 1,120 gp so far.
And there are still more crafting skills to apply. This toolbox cannot help you make a cloak of resistance or a ring of protection of a staff of fire or a wand of detect magic or boots of elvenkind or ioun stones or clay mugs for the local tavern.
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I really like this version.
A small side note, how does the exotic material components part function? I assume that they still has to be aquired elsewhere, and isn't conjured like the tools.
That was a sort of carry over from the last version. I could reword it as "a jumbled mess of finely-crafted tools, charms and devices of arcane and obscure function". It does not provide material components. Maybe that should be in the wording too?
I think I can reduce the weight too since it's really just a generator for a conjuration effect. How about taking down to the weight of a normal artisan's kit?
I really like this version.
A small side note, how does the exotic material components part function? I assume that they still has to be aquired elsewhere, and isn't conjured like the tools.That was a sort of carry over from the last version. I could reword it as "a jumbled mess of finely-crafted tools, charms and devices of arcane and obscure function". It does not provide material components. Maybe that should be in the wording too?
I think I can reduce the weight too since it's really just a generator for a conjuration effect. How about taking down to the weight of a normal artisan's kit?
Or go a different direction.
Make it like a key ring, or charm bracelet, with little tiny removable tools that grow to full size when removed, and shrink back when replaced.
Or make it a tool belt with numerous pouches that work a bit like a handy haversack - reach into the right pouch and the exact tool you need spings to hand.
You could do these things without requiring the item slot, so someone could wear the Tricky Toolbelt (slotless item) and wear a belt of strength, too.
The idea of an old beat up toolbox full of tools sounds like it rattles and clanks around as it is carried and as a user rummages through it looking for the tool he needs.
Which is also cool fluff - but that fluff may be better rewarded by having it keep some weight, like a toolbox should. It would just seem more 'right' to have to lug around the magical toolbox.
I understand the attraction of weightlessness to a mage/artificer. They don't have much weight limit.
But I also think mages wouldn't favor the rusty old clanky toolbox, either, so the charm bracelet sounds more mage/artificer to me.
They're all good, really - just depends on what flavor you want.
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But I also think mages wouldn't favor the rusty old clanky toolbox...
Actually, I rather like the idea. A big metal box is tougher than a pansy little charm bracelet. I was thinking of a matter of a few pounds reduction to that of a set of MW artisan's tools, but the weight is irrelivent compared to the fluff.
I can just imagine a frantic, skinny kobold working high up on a scaffold in his darkened workshop; rummanging around in his trusty old tool kit for just the right wrench.
He tightenes the final bolt, wipes the grease and soot from his face, and speaks the words of power. With the squeal of gears turning for the first time, the artificer's masterpiece shudders to life.
"It'sssss alive! Alive! Yesssss..." he exclaims triumphantly. "Now, go and dessstroy thosse pesssky (antagonists to be determined), my pet."
Mwah. Hah. Hah.
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"The items created by the toolbox are themselves non-magical and only the owner of the toolbox may use them. They dissappear if left unattended for more than a few minutes or handed to another person."
Emphasis mine. Just a few quick questions/comments. How do you plan to adjudicate this restriction? What rules will dictate who the "owner" is? How does one acquire, retain and/or transfer ownership?
Maybe something along the lines of "in your possession for 24 hours" type of thing? Something to avoid characters just "gifting" the box back and forth kind of loophole/scenario.
Thought you might want to clarify that.
Cheers
EDIT
PS This item is similar to one a dwarven cleric blacksmith character I once played had hoped to create. His had been more along the lines of a Daern's Instant Forge type of thing, but this magical toolbox would have been highly coveted as well. ;)
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How does one acquire, retain and/or transfer ownership?Maybe something along the lines of "in your possession for 24 hours" type of thing? Something to avoid characters just "gifting" the box back and forth kind of loophole/scenario.
Thought you might want to clarify that.
Good point. I'll work it into the description. Where can I find the instant forge you refer to? We might have a need. >:)
Good point. I'll work it into the description. Where can I find the instant forge you refer to? We might have a need. >:)
How does one acquire, retain and/or transfer ownership?Maybe something along the lines of "in your possession for 24 hours" type of thing? Something to avoid characters just "gifting" the box back and forth kind of loophole/scenario.
Thought you might want to clarify that.
Is it necessary? Since the tools disappear if you don't own the toolbox, no two persons can use it at the same time. Given craft is usually a long term process, then it is hard to get the benefit for more than one character a day.
I think the issue is defining ownership to prevent abuse.
Is it necessary? Since the tools disappear if you don't own the toolbox, no two persons can use it at the same time. Given craft is usually a long term process, then it is hard to get the benefit for more than one character a day.
Exactly,
Although, I can see Bill & Bob working on the siege engine together, with Bob assisting Bill and both using Bill's magical tool box and both getting the benefit for their checks."Bob! Hand me that spanner!"
"Unh, ok, one sec..." Sound of grunting and clatering. "Drat, dropped the screwdriver down the drain."
"Bob, you moron! How can we put it back in the box now?!? We'll never be able to pull it out again!" Sound of two-by-four breaking over assistant's head.
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"Bob! Hand me that spanner!""Unh, ok, one sec..." Sound of grunting and clatering. "Drat, dropped the screwdriver down the drain."
"Bob, you moron! How can we put it back in the box now?!? We'll never be able to pull it out again!" Sound of two-by-four breaking over assistant's head.
The beauty of the toolkit is that the item disappears if left unattended. Essentially, puts your tools away for you. Anyone who works with tools can surely appreciate that! :)
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Good point. I'll work it into the description. Where can I find the instant forge you refer to? We might have a need. >:)
It is a riff on Daern's Instant Fortress, my character couldn't care less (most of the time) about an instant tower, he wanted an instant forge instead! You could expand it to a whole line of Xuttah's Instant (insert workshop type here) type of magical pop up workshops. Think of the sales opportunities*! ;)
Cheers
*I would of course require a small "licensing" fee and 20% royalty cut from any and all future sales. :)
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I think the issue is defining ownership to prevent abuse.
Exactly. The issue of ownership is to cover the possibility of the entire party benefiting from the toolbox. (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.)
As it written though, the intent is for only one person to benefit from the toolbox. As such you need to lay out the rules for "ownership".
Otherwise the Rogue could use it to disarm a trap and then "give/sell" the toolbox to the Blacksmith to make a set of armor who then in turn could give it the Mage to forge a ring and so on and so on.
Cheers
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By the way, the following is the best "forge in a box" I found yet: (bold emphasis mine)
Mage’s Magnificent Mansion
School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 7
casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a miniature ivory door, a piece of
polished marble, and a silver spoon, each worth 5 gp)
effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect extradimensional mansion, up to three 10-ft. cubes/
level (S)
Duration 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
description
You conjure up an extradimensional dwelling that has a single
entrance on the plane from which the spell was cast. The entry
point looks like a faint shimmering in the air that is 4 feet
wide and 8 feet high. Only those you designate may enter the
mansion, and the portal is shut and made invisible behind you
when you enter. You may open it again from your own side at
will. Once observers have passed beyond the entrance, they
are in a magnificent foyer with numerous chambers beyond.
The atmosphere is clean, fresh, and warm.
You can create any floor plan you desire to the limit of the
spell’s effect [PDK --> can this mean a forge? :) ]. The place is furnished and contains sufficient
foodstuffs to serve a nine-course banquet to a dozen people
per caster level. A staff of near-transparent servants (as many
as two per caster level), liveried and obedient, wait upon all
who enter. The servants function as unseen servant spells
except that they are visible and can go anywhere in the
mansion.[PDK --> I believe this means a ton of "aid another" +2s if one sets down to craft an item! :)]
Since the place can be entered only through its special
portal, outside conditions do not affect the mansion, nor do
conditions inside it pass to the plane beyond.
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Also, this could *maybe* work as a forge/workshop, with a good amount of DM-flex thrown into the interpretation, and with firewood available...
Secure Shelter
School conjuration (creation); Level bard 4, sorcerer/wizard 4
casting
Casting Time 10 minutes
Components V, S, M (a chip of stone, sand, a drop of water,
and a wood splinter)
effect
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect 20-ft.-square structure
Duration 2 hours/level (D)
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
description
You conjure a sturdy cottage or lodge made of material that is
common in the area where the spell is cast. The floor is level,
clean, and dry. The lodging resembles a normal cottage, with a
sturdy door, two shuttered windows, and a small fireplace.
paizo.com, Pierre J. R. Godbout <wannagameinburlington@hotmail.com>, Mar 21, 2009
paizo.com, Pierre J. R. Godbout <wannagameinburlington@hotmail.com>, Mar 21, 2009
33
Pathfinder RPG: Spells 1
The shelter has no heating or cooling source (other than
natural insulation qualities). Therefore, it must be heated as a
normal dwelling, and extreme heat adversely affects it and its
occupants. The dwelling does, however, provide considerable
security otherwise—it is as strong as a normal stone building,
regardless of its material composition. The dwelling resists
flames and fire as if it were stone. It is impervious to normal
missiles (but not the sort cast by siege engines or giants).
The door, shutters, and even chimney are secure against
intrusion, the former two being arcane locked and the latter
secured by an iron grate at the top and a narrow flue. In
addition, these three areas are protected by an alarm spell.
Finally, an unseen servant is conjured to provide service to you
for the duration of the shelter.
The secure shelter contains rude furnishings—eight bunks, a
trestle table, eight stools, and a writing desk.
The beauty of the toolkit is that the item disappears if left unattended. Essentially, puts your tools away for you. Anyone who works with tools can surely appreciate that! :)
"Bob! Hand me that spanner!""Unh, ok, one sec..." Sound of grunting and clatering. "Drat, dropped the screwdriver down the drain."
"Bob, you moron! How can we put it back in the box now?!? We'll never be able to pull it out again!" Sound of two-by-four breaking over assistant's head.
Anyone who works with tools and has a wife and kids who like to take those tools out of the garage and use them, and leave them, who knows where...