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I don't often play straight primary casters, so I'm running into some rules issues I hadn't noticed before with a new PC of mine:
Chill Touch allows one touch attack per level, which means my level 2 necromancer would get two attacks. However, according to the section on touch spells:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
So, I'm allowed to make two touch attacks, but they have to be on one turn? That would require a full attack action which precludes casting the spell that allows it...or is the intent of the spell to allow the spellcaster to make all the attacks on his turn despite the rules?
Chill Touch allows me to use the touch attack 2 times. The section on touch attacks says that I can't hold the charge, I have to touch all my targets in one turn. However, if we followed the rules on attacking, I would need to make a full attack to get more than one attack (which means I couldn't cast Chill Touch in the first place), and even then, I wouldn't be able to make two attacks until 12th level, when Chill Touch says I should be getting twelve attacks!
Let's assume that multiple-target touch-range spells break the normal rules of attacking, and allow you to attack multiple times in one round, since the exception to the hold-the-charge rule seems designed specifically to make sure that spells like Chill Touch are confined to a single round. This raises other questions though.
Can a wizard cast Chill Touch, walk 30', and touch an enemy on the other side of the room? Or must he first move 30' to close with the enemy, then cast and touch as soon as he completes the spell? Depending on the enemy, he potentially provokes two attacks of opportunity in the second case, and one in the first case.
If we rule that he can move between casting and touching, then could he cast, move 15' to touch an enemy, then move another 15' to touch a second enemy? My guess would be no, since this kind of movement is typically only allowed with a feat like Ride-by Attack or Spring Attack, but we have already seen that Chill Touch breaks some basic rules about attacking. As a different example, could the wizard cast, touch, 5' step, and touch again? Typically, a 5' step is allowed between iterative attacks, but as you know, we aren't really following the rules for iterative attacks here.
However, if we rule that the wizard can't move between casting and touching, then the rules encourage two kinds of behavior in order to get the most out of a spell like Chill Touch:
1) Jump into the middle of a crowd of enemies so you can touch as many as possible (obviously a stupid thing for a wizard to do), or
2) use all of your touch attacks on a single adjacent enemy.
This of course raises yet another question: can you use multiple touch attacks from the same spell on a single target? For the sake of my PC, I'd hope the answer is yes. Chill Touch deals 1 point of Strength damage per touch, which is only really useful if you can stack the damage onto a single target. There's also a precedent with spells like Scorching Ray that allow you to target a single creature multiple times.
So, have these questions been answered before in some place I missed?
What are your interpretations of these rules?
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Another thought that just occurred to me:
Can I use the necromancer's grave touch ability (melee touch attack, 1d6+(1/2 CL) cold damage) to deliver touch spells? Not Chill Touch, obviously, because the spell and the ability are separate standard actions, but what about another touch spell like Touch of Fatigue?
Round 1: Cast Touch of Fatigue, hold the charge
Round 2: Close with enemy, attack with grave touch, and discharge ToF
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I don't often play straight primary casters, so I'm running into some rules issues I hadn't noticed before with a new PC of mine:
Chill Touch allows one touch attack per level, which means my level 2 necromancer would get two attacks. However, according to the section on touch spells:
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.So, I'm allowed to make two touch attacks, but they have to be on one turn? That would require a full attack action which precludes casting the spell that allows it...or is the intent of the spell to allow the spellcaster to make all the attacks on his turn despite the rules?
Chill Touch allows me to use the touch attack 2 times. The section on touch attacks says that I can't hold the charge, I have to touch all my targets in one turn. However, if we followed the rules on attacking, I would need to make a full attack to get more than one attack (which means I couldn't cast Chill Touch in the first place), and even then, I wouldn't be able to make two attacks until 12th level, when Chill Touch says I should be getting twelve attacks!
Chill Touch is an exception to the 'touch all your targets in one turn'. Specifically because it says that 'you can use this melee touch attack up to one time per level'. You would get no more than your normal base attack bonus worth of attacks per round, but could use that particular spell up to X many times before you needed to recast it (X being your level). This is primarily because of the part immediately before the part you quote.
"Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch as many willing targets as you can reach as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell."
Chill Touch is not a spell that allows you to touch multiple targets, it is a spell that lets you use a melee touch attack more than once before the spell is up. The difference should be noted.
Let's assume that multiple-target touch-range spells break the normal rules of attacking, and allow you to attack multiple times in one round, since the exception to the hold-the-charge rule seems designed specifically to make sure that spells like Chill Touch are confined to a single round. This raises other questions though.Can a wizard cast Chill Touch, walk 30', and touch an enemy on the other side of the room? Or must he first move 30' to close with the enemy, then cast and touch as soon as he completes the spell? Depending on the enemy, he potentially provokes two attacks of opportunity in the second case, and one in the first case.
If we rule that he can move between casting and...
He can cast it, move 30', and make his melee touch attack. It has been covered numerous times on the WotC boards and in a FAQ. It's part of the whole "I can hold the charge indefinitely" thing.
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Another thought that just occurred to me:
Can I use the necromancer's grave touch ability (melee touch attack, 1d6+(1/2 CL) cold damage) to deliver touch spells? Not Chill Touch, obviously, because the spell and the ability are separate standard actions, but what about another touch spell like Touch of Fatigue?
Round 1: Cast Touch of Fatigue, hold the charge
Round 2: Close with enemy, attack with grave touch, and discharge ToF
By RAW, you could not. Making a touch attack to use Touch of Fatigue is a Standard Action, as is making a touch attack with Grave Touch. You could do one or another at any one time, not both.
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I would have to disagree with casting ANY touch spell, walking any distance and then discharging said spell. The act of making the touch attack is part of the activation of the spell. That is all inclusive in the standard action. To move inbetween is to essentially say that I can start a standard action, take a move action, and then finish my standard action.
I would have to disagree with casting ANY touch spell, walking any distance and then discharging said spell. The act of making the touch attack is part of the activation of the spell. That is all inclusive in the standard action. To move inbetween is to essentially say that I can start a standard action, take a move action, and then finish my standard action.
You can't do it all in the same round, no. But you could certainly cast a touch spell on round 1, hold the touch, and then move and attack with the touch spell on round 2.
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I would have to disagree with casting ANY touch spell, walking any distance and then discharging said spell. The act of making the touch attack is part of the activation of the spell. That is all inclusive in the standard action. To move inbetween is to essentially say that I can start a standard action, take a move action, and then finish my standard action.You can't do it all in the same round, no. But you could certainly cast a touch spell on round 1, hold the touch, and then move and attack with the touch spell on round 2.
I agree with you Hogarth. "Hold the charge" replaces "make a touch attack" during the standard action of casting the spell, so that when you do discharge the spell, the touch attack uses up its own standard action.
However, this interpretation is in direct conflict with what Karui Kage said above. Apparently, it's officially allowable to cast-move-touch all in one turn.
I think the key is in the wording of the "hold the charge" rules:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell , you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indef initely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets as part of the spell. You can’t hold the charge of such a spell; you must touch all targets of the spell in the same round that you finish casting the spell.
(emphasis mine)
This leads me to believe that it's not considered "holding the charge" unless you wait an entire round to discharge the spell.
Chill Touch is downright confusing, though. Let's assume that what Karui Kage said above is correct. CT has a duration of "instantaneous" even though the energy of the spell actually lasts for 1 round/level (less if you have iterative attacks). It has a target of "creature or creatures touched (up to one/level)" even though it doesn't so much target creatures as give the caster the ability to make touch attacks.
It'd be really nice to see an official answer on these issues. Karui Kage, maybe you could point us in the direction of that FAQ you referred to?
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You can indeed do it all in the same round. This is from the Combat section in both the Pathfinder Beta (pg.137) and the 3.5 Player's Handbook (here on the d20srd).
Emphasis mine.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
I also wish to retract my original statement about being unable to use your prepared 'touch' spell and the Necromancer's supernatural 'touch' at the same time. As the necromancer touch is supernatural and not spell-like, it should not conflict with your current touch spell. And touching anything or anyone while holding a charge (even unintentionally) does discharge the spell.
So yes, you could feasibly do both at once. Cast the spell on one round, then go to touch with your supernatural attack the next.
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Chill Touch is downright confusing, though. Let's assume that what Karui Kage said above is correct. CT has a duration of "instantaneous" even though the energy of the spell actually lasts for 1 round/level (less if you have iterative attacks). It has a target of "creature or...
Chill Touch is a perfect example of D&D's philosophy of 'everything breaks the rules'. Normally a person can only make one attack of opportunity a round, but Combat Reflexes lets them make more. Normally you take a -4 penalty for firing into melee, but Precise Shot negates this.
Similarly, normally once you touch someone successfully with your Touch spell, it is gone. Chill Touch is unique in that you can 'use' it up to one time per level. It does not state that it grants you extra attacks in a single round, just that it can be used more than once (assuming higher than 1st level) before the spell goes away.
There are some interesting builds on the old WotC forums that rely on a Wizard/Fighter or so with this spell, purely for the extra base attacks. I will look around for a definitive "FAQ" on this call, though I'm not sure it's ever really come up. It seems pretty clear to me, at the very least.
As for the info about holding charges and such, I clarified that with my above post. I remembered incorrectly in that it was not part of any FAQ or errata, but actually in the base rules.
Huh. I stand corrected, then!
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You can indeed do it all in the same round. This is from the Combat section in both the Pathfinder Beta (pg.137) and the 3.5 Player's Handbook (here on the d20srd).
Emphasis mine.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target.
Thanks for the official quote, that helps.
I also wish to retract my original statement about being unable to use your prepared 'touch' spell and the Necromancer's supernatural 'touch' at the same time. As the necromancer touch is supernatural and not spell-like, it should not conflict with your current touch spell. And touching anything or anyone while holding a charge (even unintentionally) does discharge the spell.
So yes, you could feasibly do both at once. Cast the spell on one round, then go to touch with your supernatural attack the next.
While I personally enjoy this ruling (since it benefits my PC), I can't help but wonder why it would make a difference that the Grave Touch is Su instead of Sp?
Why is this allowable:- Round 1: Cast Touch of Fatigue, hold the charge
- Round 2: Move 30', attack with Grave Touch and discharge Touch of Fatigue
But this isn't:
- Round 1: Cast Touch of Fatigue, hold the charge
- Round 2: Move 30', cast Shocking Grasp and discharge Touch of Fatigue
Both of them can be described as such:
- Round 1: Standard action
- Round 2: Move action, standard action
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While I personally enjoy this ruling (since it benefits my PC), I can't help but wonder why it would make a difference that the Grave Touch is Su instead of Sp?
Primarily because of this little bit from "Touch Spells and Holding the Charge"
If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
A supernatural effect is not considered a spell. A spell-like ability is, since you are still 'casting a spell', just via a different method.
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While I personally enjoy this ruling (since it benefits my PC), I can't help but wonder why it would make a difference that the Grave Touch is Su instead of Sp?Primarily because of this little bit from "Touch Spells and Holding the Charge"
If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.A supernatural effect is not considered a spell. A spell-like ability is, since you are still 'casting a spell', just via a different method.
*facepalm* Duh. Thanks. I just didn't get that from your first post.
Like I said, not a lot of experience with wizards and the weird interactions of spellcasting rules and such.
So, to sum up:
- Chill Touch attacks can only be used once per round, but you can move between casting and touching.
- A Chill Touch attack (or other touch spell) can be paired up with other touch attacks, as long as you only take one standard action each turn and remember that you can't use spells or spell-like abilities while holding the charge on a spell.
However, we haven't reached a conclusion as to whether or not you can Chill Touch a creature multiple times during a single casting (as I said earlier, my bet is on "yes, you can").
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So, to sum up:
- Chill Touch attacks can only be used once per round, but you can move between casting and touching.
Yes and no. Yes to the latter part, in that you can move between casting and touching (think of it in that you basically get a 'free' attack the round you complete casting). However, if you do have multiple attacks (high enough BAB, Haste, other effects) you could feasibly make more Chill Touch attacks in the same round assuming you could spend the Full Attack Action to do so.
- A Chill Touch attack (or other touch spell) can be paired up with other touch attacks, as long as you only take one standard action each turn and remember that you can't use spells or spell-like abilities while holding the charge on a spell.However, we haven't reached a conclusion as to whether or not you can Chill Touch a creature multiple times during a single casting (as I said earlier, my bet is on "yes, you can").
In a sense.
Here is an example. Let's assume we have Fighter McLittlemagic, a level 7 PC (Fighter 6/Wizard 1). Because he prefers fighting with his fists, he took Improved Unarmed Attack.
Now touch spells discharge whenever you touch someone successfully. Most commonly this is from a Melee Touch Attack, but it could be part of an Unarmed attack.
Fighter McLittlemagic has a BAB of +6/+1 (+6 from Fighter, +0 from Wizard). So two attacks per round. He could feasibly do the following:
ROUND 1: Cast Chill Touch, move up to the opponent, get one touch attack in (not a normal attack that can also use the spell, since he doesn't get that for free).
ROUND 2: Assuming the enemy did not move away, make two attacks. Both of which will do his unarmed damage AND discharge some of the Chill touch.
ROUND 3+: Repeat until Chill Touch is used up.
This devastating combo has been spoken of on the old boards, though it is arguable whether the character in question would have more than one 'use' of Chill Touch before needing to recast (it depends on whether you interpret "up to one time per level" as character level or caster level). Though even if it is the latter, the good ole Practiced Spellcaster feat fixes that.
Now if you are a base Wizard, you will be making melee touch attacks and that is all. Likely just one per round for a number of rounds up to your caster level. However, a wizard DOES get a second attack at level 12 when he hits BAB +6, so he could feasibly begin making two melee touch attacks per round from then on (assuming he already had cast Chill Touch and was not moving more than 5 feet).
So to clarify what we've learned.
1: On the round that a caster 'completes' casting his touch spell, he may get a free 'touch attack' against an opponent even if he casts the spell, moves, then touches, all in one round.
2: You may use multiple attacks with the touch attack on Chill Touch provided you have A. remaining 'uses' and B. a Full Attack option.
3: You may discharge touch spells in other ways that include you 'touching' the opponent (natural attacks, unarmed attacks, etc.). These may not be used in place of the 'free' one you get on the round you cast the spell, but can be used in subsequent rounds. So even if you use a spell like Shocking Grasp that discharges after the first use, you could feasibly wait a round to get a normal attack in and discharge it at the same time.
Hope that helps. :)
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Also, if you want a fun character, try a Sorcerer/Monk or Sorcerer/Fighter (with unarmed specialization). :D Take a single level of Sorcerer and just go Monk (or Fighter) for a ways. Grab Chill Touch and Mage Armor as your spells, then get some good ole negative energy and strength damage with most of your unarmed attacks! Probably will want to take Practiced Spellcaster in that case, but it'd still be quite a nifty build.
I think we've cleared up almost all of this confusion.
Chill Touch lets you make 1 or more attacks per round, up to you normal iterative/hasted/etc. allotment, until you use up the 1 attack/level quota.
You can also cast, move, and touch all in one full-round action, avoiding the AoO for casting adjacent to an enemy.
But the OP asked one question that shows we're still a little confused, and I didn't see it answered yet, so here's more answer for this thread (I bolded the pertinent part):
Can a wizard cast Chill Touch, walk 30', and touch an enemy on the other side of the room? Or must he first move 30' to close with the enemy, then cast and touch as soon as he completes the spell? Depending on the enemy, he potentially provokes two attacks of opportunity in the second case, and one in the first case.
Magical touch attacks never provoke Attacks of Opportunity. They are considered armed, and hence they are just as dangerous as, say, attacking someone with a dagger - which doesn't provoke.
Unarmed Attacks: Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:
Attacks of Opportunity: Attacking unarmed provokes an attack of opportunity from the character you attack, provided she is armed. The attack of opportunity comes before your attack. An unarmed attack does not provoke attacks of opportunity from other foes, nor does it provoke an attack of opportunity from an unarmed foe. An unarmed character can’t take attacks of opportunity (but see “Armed” Unarmed Attacks, below).
“Armed” Unarmed Attacks: Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.
Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)
Note the part about "armed" unarmed attacks.
This means that once your hand turns blue (Chill Touch) or sparkles with crackling electricity (Shocking Grasp) or whatever, the enemy you're trying to hit is every bit as worried about your "armed" attack as if you had a sword in your hand, and therefore your attacks don't provoke.
Further, you can use your blue/crackling/etc. hand to make an AoO if an enemy provokes one from you.
So, back to the OP's question, if you move up to an enemy, cast Chill Touch, then touch him, you provoke one AoO for casting the spell (unless you cast defensively). But if you begin your turn out of his threat area, cast your spell, move up next to him, then touch him, you do not provoke an AoO. Further, since you only used one of your two uses, if the enemy does something, like cast a spell of his own, or try to move away, and he provokes you, you can deliver you second use of the spell on his turn as an AoO, which frees you up for a new spell when your turn comes around.
Nifty, eh?
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But the OP asked one question that shows we're still a little confused, and I didn't see it answered yet, so here's more answer for this thread (I bolded the pertinent part):
Can a wizard cast Chill Touch, walk 30', and touch an enemy on the other side of the room? Or must he first move 30' to close with the enemy, then cast and touch as soon as he completes the spell? Depending on the enemy, he potentially provokes two attacks of opportunity in the second case, and one in the first case.Magical touch attacks never provoke Attacks of Opportunity. They are considered armed, and hence they are just as dangerous as, say, attacking someone with a dagger - which doesn't provoke.
Actually, I was mainly thinking about an enemy with reach. If you cast Shocking Grasp, and then run up and touch a troll, you provoke when you move through it's threatened area. If you run up to the troll and then cast Shocking Grasp, you provoke when you move and when cast.
To be honest, though, it's rare that you'd run into a troll with Combat Reflexes, so it's not surprising that we mostly ignored that comment of mine ;-)
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You have run into another rule here however, You may not execute more than one AOO on an individual per round. Even though you have Combat Reflexes you can still only perform one AOO on each creature per round. So if you provoke an AOO by moving (and survive it) the troll would not be able to Attack you with an AOO again that round no matter what you did that could provoke an AOO. (Note I have house ruled that picking the creatures nose does allow him to use a free attack of opportunity upon you, but that is only a house rule and hopefully will no longer be needed)
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You have run into another rule here however, You may not execute more than one AOO on an individual per round. Even though you have Combat Reflexes you can still only perform one AOO on each creature per round. So if you provoke an AOO by moving (and survive it) the troll would not be able to Attack you with an AOO again that round no matter what you did that could provoke an AOO. (Note I have house ruled that picking the creatures nose does allow him to use a free attack of opportunity upon you, but that is only a house rule and hopefully will no longer be needed)
Touche. I suppose my example was even more misguided than I originally thought.
From what I remember you can only take one AoO per action that provokes an AoO, but if you have combat reflexes you can still take multiple AoO's on one target if that target performs multiple actions that provokes AoO's.
For Example:
Sorcerer Igonadi casts a spell while standing beside troll (the troll has combat reflexes and a Dex of at least 12) without casting defensively, the troll takes the opportunity and wallops Igonadi with an AoO. Igonadi realizes that hurt and tries to run away with his move action, he moves 10 feet and provokes another AoO for moving out of a threatened square, the troll takes another AoO against Igonadi because this second, separate action provokes and the troll had combat reflexes.
Quote from the rules to back me up:
" Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity:
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add
your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of
opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does
not let you make more than one attack for a given
opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two
attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two
separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents
a different opportunity). Moving out of more than
one square threatened by the same opponent in the same
round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for
that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal
attack bonus. "
Page 132 Pathfinder Beta Column 2
Touche. I suppose my example was even more misguided than I originally thought.
Not really, in 3.5 that was the way things would have worked. The AoO only just changed with PFRPG and at some point I think we have all been tripped up in one change or another as they don't get used in all our games ;)
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Touche. I suppose my example was even more misguided than I originally thought.Not really, in 3.5 that was the way things would have worked. The AoO only just changed with PFRPG and at some point I think we have all been tripped up in one change or another as they don't get used in all our games ;)
If you are talking about the 'two attacks of opportunity on the same opponent' thing, then it indeed worked the exact same way with 3.5.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/attacksOfOpportunity.htm
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.