Someone will probably come along and link all the threads to you. I don't have them on hand, but there is a few threads out there that deal with it.
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I think that, according to WOTC, it has something to do with their recent anti-piracy lawsuit where pdf's of the new PHB II were being distributed for free by schmucks; some think it is an overreaction on WOTC's part. Others think it is an overreaction to think it is an overreaction on WOTC's part.
If my brief synopsis doesn't get it, or seems unfair somehow, I'm sorry to whomever may think so; I have to admit to being something of an anti-4e homer, but I'm trying to be fair to all sides/factions.
I think that, according to WOTC, it has something to do with their recent anti-piracy lawsuit where pdf's of the new PHB II were being distributed for free by schmucks; some think it is an overreaction on WOTC's part. Others think it is an overreaction to think it is an overreaction on WOTC's part.
This pretty much sums up the situation.
WotC has said that they're actively working on a new way to distribute material online (new and old), and they'll let us know when they have something finalized (hopefully before too long).
WotC has said that they're actively working on a new way to distribute material online (new and old), and they'll let us know when they have something finalized (hopefully before too long).
My assumption is that WotC will provide an option to consult their books online, through an interface on a server.
Of course all that for a monthly fee.No download, no printing. Just read online.
In their mind it will solve the issue of downloads being spread over the p2p and pirate networks.
Of course it would raise some issues, as it would require an internet access anywhere, therefore a laptop with a wireless connection, which is not affordable for everyone, not accessible everywhere, and not ideal at a gaming table.
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WotC has said that they're actively working on a new way to distribute material online (new and old), and they'll let us know when they have something finalized (hopefully before too long).My assumption is that WotC will provide an option to consult their books online, through an interface on a server.
Of course all that for a monthly fee.
No download, no printing. Just read online.
In their mind it will solve the issue of downloads being spread over the p2p and pirate networks.
Prima games does something kind of similar with their e-guides that I fear may also be an option.
Worst ... ereader ... ever. I'd rather go in for a root canal.
It reminds me another topic about some magazines which were removed from print and became available only online...
Therefore being not available in some places, opposed to a paper version.
/sigh
Dungeon and Dragon magazines are both downloadable. You can download them and move them from computer to computer. You can print them out if you so choose or leave them as a pdf. HOPEfully this will be the way they offer pdfs in the future but I doubt Wizards is going to find the way to make the pdf pirate-proof. You can print a website so therefore you can print the pdf... use CutePDF and you print the website into a movable pdf that requires no internet access.
some think it is an overreaction on WOTC's part
I don't think so. I know so. Because yanking existing pdfs won't hurt the illegal distribution one bit. This is either the greatest overreaction ever, or they have other motives and were only using this as a cop-out.
Dungeon and Dragon magazines are both downloadable. You can download them and move them from computer to computer. You can print them out if you so choose or leave them as a pdf. HOPEfully this will be the way they offer pdfs in the future but I doubt Wizards is going to find the way to make the pdf pirate-proof. You can print a website so therefore you can print the pdf... use CutePDF and you print the website into a movable pdf that requires no internet access.
I hope you don't consider this the same than an actual magazine you buy in a newstand ?
Dungeon and Dragon magazines are both downloadable. You can download them and move them from computer to computer. You can print them out if you so choose or leave them as a pdf. HOPEfully this will be the way they offer pdfs in the future but I doubt Wizards is going to find the way to make the pdf pirate-proof. You can print a website so therefore you can print the pdf... use CutePDF and you print the website into a movable pdf that requires no internet access.I hope you don't consider this the same than an actual magazine you buy in a newstand ?
For my part, I've gotten probably ten times the use out of Dragon and Dungeon since 4th Edition was released than in its entire history before that point. The integration and "officialness" of the magazines in their current form makes them very attractive to DMs - whereas previously I found that most DMs would not allow rule elements from Dragon, or would vet them on a case-by-case basis, I'm finding that most DMs now allow rule elements from 4th Edition Dragon magazines more or less unconditionally.
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For my part, I've gotten probably ten times the use out of Dragon and Dungeon since 4th Edition was released than in its entire history before that point. The integration and "officialness" of the magazines in their current form makes them very attractive to DMs - whereas previously I found that most DMs would not allow rule elements from Dragon, or would vet them on a case-by-case basis, I'm finding that most DMs now allow rule elements from 4th Edition Dragon magazines more or less unconditionally.
That might also have something to do with the modularity of the new design. I know I'm much more open to allowing new powers at the table than I was in past editions. But I also have a table rule that if I think a power is unbalancing, I can require players to swap it out the next time they level up (and it's considered a free swap-out, they can still do their normally allowed swap as well.) That type of flexibility was much more difficult in past editions.
Anyway, that table rule lets me be much more open about allowing in other sources of material, and my players seem to appreciate it. So I think it's the game design, more than an official status of Dragon Magazine, that encourages that use.
Drew Garrett
some think it is an overreaction on WOTC's partI don't think so. I know so. Because yanking existing pdfs won't hurt the illegal distribution one bit. This is either the greatest overreaction ever, or they have other motives and were only using this as a cop-out.Well, that's not entirely true.
...
Alright, but your explanation doesn't go to actually say why the statement isn't true. Your explanation why stopping new pdfs from being sold would hurt illegal distribution is perfectly reasonable, but his statement was about removing the existing pdfs that your argument doesn't handle.
I will go with what you say on Arcane not being available for illegal download yet because I'm not really into this enough to test any of the links I saw.
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some think it is an overreaction on WOTC's partI don't think so. I know so. Because yanking existing pdfs won't hurt the illegal distribution one bit. This is either the greatest overreaction ever, or they have other motives and were only using this as a cop-out.
Yeah, I suspect,it has more about trying to keep older editions of D&D from competing with 4E or wanting to keep all the profits from electronic copies as opposed to just most of the profits. It's probably a mixture of both. Fighting piracy is just a flimsy excuse, since there is no way making illegal electronic copies of your products the only electronic copies available to the public will in no way reduce the pirating of those products.
I hope you don't consider this the same than an actual magazine you buy in a newstand ?
just a note, the last Dungeon was 130 pages long! I like kicking back with a magazine in the tub as much as the next guy but that is a lot of content which is not limited by paper costs. And that + the char builder for 5/mo? A great deal imo.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So much for wording s#!* diplomatically so as not to stir s#!* up.
Something about best intentions and all...
If it's any consolation, I was duly impressed. I find myself at a loss to describe the pdf pulling without using the words "asshattery" or "unbelievably f*+&ing stupid," so I appreciated your attempt to put those feelings more diplomatically.
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If it's any consolation, I was duly impressed. I find myself at a loss to describe the pdf pulling without using the words "asshattery" or "unbelievably f*&&ing stupid," so I appreciated your attempt to put those feelings more diplomatically.So much for wording s#!* diplomatically so as not to stir s#!* up.
Something about best intentions and all...
I'm mellowing in my old age.
Alright, but your explanation doesn't go to actually say why the statement isn't true. Your explanation why stopping new pdfs from being sold would hurt illegal distribution is perfectly reasonable, but his statement was about removing the existing pdfs that your argument doesn't handle.Yeah, I was reading his comment as being more about PDFs in general having no existing on piracy rather than about the largely useless gesture of taking them down after the fact. And certainly, as WotC's Nightmare mentions, as long as no legal electronic copies are being sold, the only ones being acquired by those seeking them will be pirated ones. This is clearly not a long-term solution for the problem, just the first step.
I imagine the situation is that WotC realized that releasing PDF copies at the same time as print copies was having a negative impact, and that whatever plan they came up with to deal with this would be affecting the entire line - so the first step was to take down the old PDFs rather than just stop releasing new ones.
So there is a definite logic to what they did. Whether it was a wise choice or not will really depend on what solution they eventually reveal.
To me, that is akin to your first step for getting a new car being selling your old car, so that after that you are lacking car to transport yourself and you haven't even begun to look for a new car!
I have no doubt that they had some logic as to why they did it the way they did. However, from my position it looks to be a hasty and ill-prepared choice that, for myself, damages the value of all their electronic properties rather than it being a wise choice. No matter what solution they come up with, I don't think it will explain why they did what they did.
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For my part, I've gotten probably ten times the use out of Dragon and Dungeon since 4th Edition was released than in its entire history before that point....previously I found that most DMs would not allow rule elements from Dragon, or would vet them on a case-by-case basis, I'm finding that most DMs now allow rule elements from 4th Edition Dragon magazines more or less unconditionally.
That might also have something to do with the modularity of the new design. I know I'm much more open to allowing new powers at the table than I was in past editions.
Is it possibly, also due to still being early days?
The first generation of new classes/powers are more likely to be both balanced, and cover basic, iconic archetypes, than those which come later (ie the dreaded 'power creep').
If you look at 3.5, the feats in the PHB are mostly basic, meat and potatoes stuff; a plus one here, a plus two there, a couple of extra uses of X per day, and some that, arguably, don't need to be feats in the first place, but standard options in the base combat rules (why can anyone choose to 'Fight Defensively', but need a feat to Power Attack, ie 'Fight Offensively'?).
It's the later releases people have issues with. It becomes more difficult to come up with new concepts that match older playing styles ('You got wuxia in my medieval fantasy!'), or power levels (if a new feat is demonstrably more powerful than the old, it will be popular, but decried as power creep; if it's weaker, then it's a waste of space, since no-one will take it).
Well, that's not entirely true.
With PDFs available for purchase, illegal distribution requires pretty much no effort on the part of the pirates.
Read again what I wrote, and you'll find that it is, in fact, entirely true.
I was talking about existing PDFs. Not PDFs for entirely new books. Sure, if you never make an official PDF for PHB MXII 4e, the "pirates" will have a harder time distributing an illegal version (not that much, mind you, since there were illegal PDFs before there were legal ones, and those infamous 4e first three core books pdfs were done from Print Masters, i.e. electronic versions of the books sent to the printers to make print versions out of it).
But yanking stuff that has been available? It's already out there, and none of those pirates will go now and delete their version now wizards has yanked the official version.
All it takes really is one sold version of, say PHBII 4e. One guy gets it, puts it onto a server, a bunch of people get it from there, some put it on other servers, more people get it, eventually someone puts it onto the peer-to-peer networks.....
Hence why the PHB2 PDF was being pirated mere moments after it was available for electronic purchase.
Exactly. And that was the time when stopping sales for that stuff became utterly useless as a measure to stop piracy.
It does inconvencience honest customers quite a bit, I give you that, but not dishonest people.
On the other hand, PHB2 was already likely to be a big seller. Last weeks release, Arcane Power, was likely to be a popular product, but not sell out right out of the gates. So online pirating would have much greater odds of having a detrimental impact on print sales.
Not necessarily. I think the number of people who will now buy it because it won't be as readily available as a free download isn't that great.
On the other hand, I think there are at least as many people who would get the illegal PDF and then go on and buy the print product after seeing how nice the book is (or, indeed, using the PDF as "try before buy" since they don't shop in a local store) is as least as big as the number who will now get it because they can't download it for free.
So, in theory, that should keep up demand for Arcane Power during its first week of release. And honestly, thats the best wizard really needs to hope for in any anti-pirating scheme it comes up with.
It still does nothing to explain why they took out existing stuff, including stuff they have stopped printing and selling as print books years ago.
Hency my conviction that they didn't really do it to stop piracy, but for other reasons.
If or when they begin up online sales again (whether directly or through other sites as before), the best bet is really just to delay the PDF release by a week.
I don't expect the PDFs to come back, ever. I rather expect something you can only watch online - if you're a subscriber and have bought the electronic version to boot.
KaeYoss.....Kae....Yoss.....
oh....."chaos."Ha!
.....fuuuuuuuuuuuuuunny..........
Wow, that was fast! :P
Plus, my son needs Star Wars figures and such crap, and Hasbro makes all that, so my hatred looks hypocritical somehow.Your son "needs" Star Wars figures? Don't you mean that he "wants" Star Wars figures?
I think there's support groups for that.
Chief Technical Officer
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I think there's support groups for that.Plus, my son needs Star Wars figures and such crap, and Hasbro makes all that, so my hatred looks hypocritical somehow.Your son "needs" Star Wars figures? Don't you mean that he "wants" Star Wars figures?
Really? Because my... uh... son also needs Star Wars figures.
The first generation of new classes/powers are more likely to be both balanced, and cover basic, iconic archetypes, than those which come later (ie the dreaded 'power creep').
We're already on the second generation of classes/powers. In fact, as of the release of Arcane Power, we're already seeing supplements for that second generation of classes.
And it may just be me, but I haven't seen significant power creep in 4th Edition, at all. I mean, really, when the biggest complaint of power creep revolves around a math fix that imparts a +1 bonus to attack rolls before level 15, there are probably more worthwhile things to concern oneself with.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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It is also true that (according to wizard's numbers, which I suspect are underestimating if anything), about 10 copies were pirated for every purchase (print or otherwise) of the PHB2. Which seems significant - except for the fact that the PHB2 sold out anyway!
I just wanted to correct you here, it was 10 copies pirated for every one online purchase, print purchases were not included in that ratio.
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Really? Because my... uh... son also needs Star Wars figures.I think there's support groups for that.Plus, my son needs Star Wars figures and such crap, and Hasbro makes all that, so my hatred looks hypocritical somehow.Your son "needs" Star Wars figures? Don't you mean that he "wants" Star Wars figures?
My son got Jar Jar last week!!!
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 8
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I would just like to point out that "legal pdfs" are stamped with the purchaser's name/email/account num or whatnot. You would have to be a moron to upload a stamped pdf on p2p. If someone does upload a pdf it's going to be an unstamped one (read: illegal).
A lot of the pirated pdfs were originally legally purchased, and then had the name stamp and watermarks stripped out of them. Its a lot easier than scanning the book in page by page, and retains all the benefits (bookmarks, selectable text, being searchable, etc).
Kids love Jar Jar.
Which shows how diabolic Lucas is: Gets kids hooked with jarjars, and then BAM! Evil Child Murderer Anakin Attack which deals 5d% sanity damage. :D
I would just like to point out that "legal pdfs" are stamped with the purchaser's name/email/account num or whatnot. You would have to be a moron to upload a stamped pdf on p2p. If someone does upload a pdf it's going to be an unstamped one (read: illegal).
Well, it seems that people were removing the visible watermarks but not the invisible ones, and so some people were caught.
The thing that has me annoyed is the older books. We're seeing more and more local stores closing and its being coming more and more difficult to find 3rd edition or 3.5 books. 4th edition books are everywhere. I want one I can get one in any bookstore. But pdfs allow WOTC to continue selling and making money with out the overhead of reprinting.
Which was probably one of the real reasons behind this: Further limit access to older stuff, so people might be more inclined to buy 4e. They've been trying to get rid of the older editions ever since they announced 4e.
Well, it seems that people were removing the visible watermarks but not the invisible ones, and so some people were caught.
The first copy of the PHB2 to hit illicit file distribution channels still had its visible watermark, and reportedly the individual responsible is among those targeted by the suits.
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Kids love Jar Jar.Which shows how diabolic Lucas is: Gets kids hooked with jarjars, and then BAM! Evil Child Murderer Anakin Attack which deals 5d% sanity damage. :D
I would just like to point out that "legal pdfs" are stamped with the purchaser's name/email/account num or whatnot. You would have to be a moron to upload a stamped pdf on p2p. If someone does upload a pdf it's going to be an unstamped one (read: illegal).Well, it seems that people were removing the visible watermarks but not the invisible ones, and so some people were caught.
Which was probably one of the real reasons behind this: Further limit access to older stuff, so people might be more inclined to buy 4e. They've been trying to get rid of the older editions ever since they announced 4e.
The thing that has me annoyed is the older books. We're seeing more and more local stores closing and its being coming more and more difficult to find 3rd edition or 3.5 books. 4th edition books are everywhere. I want one I can get one in any bookstore. But pdfs allow WOTC to continue selling and making money with out the overhead of reprinting.
Yeah, WotC would really love it, if the 3.5 market dwindled to almost nothing. They want 4th edition D&D to be the only edition of D&D.
Yeah, WotC would really love it, if the 3.5 market dwindled to almost nothing. They want 4th edition D&D to be the only edition of D&D.
Well, every day is OGL Day!
The first generation of new classes/powers are more likely to be both balanced, and cover basic, iconic archetypes, than those which come later (ie the dreaded 'power creep').We're already on the second generation of classes/powers. In fact, as of the release of Arcane Power, we're already seeing supplements for that second generation of classes.
And it may just be me, but I haven't seen significant power creep in 4th Edition, at all. I mean, really, when the biggest complaint of power creep revolves around a math fix that imparts a +1 bonus to attack rolls before level 15, there are probably more worthwhile things to concern oneself with.
It took awhile for the creep to really show up in 3.5 too.
I hope they learned their lesson though and it doesn't actually come to fruition in 4E.
Well, it seems that people were removing the visible watermarks but not the invisible ones, and so some people were caught.
This is probably a load of bs anyways. I do not believe for one minute there is an invisible watermark that Wizards hide in their products to determine who buys them since most of them are purchased through Drivethrurpg or RPGNow. They have their own watermarking system but not all of their items are watermarked plus I am pretty sure they aren't allowed to invisibility watermark a product without telling the consumer that "This product contains an invisible watermark".
It probably just wasn't hard to target the people that didn't remove their watermarks or just hang around some P2P sites that deal with PDF files for a day or two and you could probably determined the "pdf pirates".
This is probably a load of bs anyways. I do not believe for one minute there is an invisible watermark that Wizards hide in their products to determine who buys them since most of them are purchased through Drivethrurpg or RPGNow. They have their own watermarking system but not all of their items are watermarked plus I am pretty sure they aren't allowed to invisibility watermark a product without telling the consumer that "This product contains an invisible watermark".
Well, it seems that people were removing the visible watermarks but not the invisible ones, and so some people were caught.
I'm not sure whether such a statement is enforced by law, but they absolutely do have "invisible" watermarks that they can embed within the document. I wouldn't be so quick to label it BS. The pirating community (usually) is pretty careful about inspecting a document thoroughly for invisible digital watermarking before providing it for distribution.
In tangential news, WotC has made Keep on the Shadowfell and the quick start rules available for free download at their website.
All I know is that this month a couple hundreds of my dollars did not go to WotC, but to Paizo and people selling old 3.5 books.
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For my part, I've gotten probably ten times the use out of Dragon and Dungeon since 4th Edition was released than in its entire history before that point. The integration and "officialness" of the magazines in their current form makes them very attractive to DMs - whereas previously I found that most DMs would not allow rule elements from Dragon, or would vet them on a case-by-case basis, I'm finding that most DMs now allow rule elements from 4th Edition Dragon magazines more or less unconditionally.
Huh?
Dungeon and Dragon always were "official". as they were directly produced by TSR, WoC or under close supervision in the PAIZO era.Only now WoC explicitly states that it is "official".
Does this make the content better?
Your argument, IMHO, is severly flawed.