I'm curious if this was an issue raised at any tables that ran this path. I'm also curious to see if anyone lapsed into Jar-Jar Binks or Drizzt impressions.
I am not sure I understand what you are asking?
Sean Mahoney
|
I think I do; with regards to "black skin=evil" regarding drow...
IDK; I'm not around a lot of African American gamers at the present, or any gamers for that matter; I really couldn't tell if there's a problem or issue. If I was to venture a guess, I'd have to go back to when I was around some African American gamers. I'd have to say I never heard of any problems with drow that I can remember, though I think I was aware of the possibility at the time and would've been willing to make the underground race of evil elves utterly devoid of pigmentation, which would scientifically make sense. I think the joke might have come up once or twice, like in the Kevin Smith movie where, "oh, yeah....make Darth Vader, the only black character, evil. That's just great."
If I'm wrong I'm sorry, that's just my read on what was meant.
|
|
I'd have to say I never heard of any problems with drow that I can remember, though I think I was aware of the possibility at the time and would've been willing to make the underground race of evil elves utterly devoid of pigmentation, which would scientifically make sense.
Though, I don't know if making the drow albinos would actually be kind of a condescending move or not.
Jeez, I'm starting to feel a bit neurotic now.
The narrative requires
The Star Wars reference was to Jar Jar Binks, actually, and whether anyone went that route of minstrelsy in their impersonations.
Wikipedia on this character: "Joe Morgenstern of Wall Street Journal described the character as a "Rastafarian Stepin Fetchit on platform hoofs, crossed annoyingly with Butterfly McQueen."[10] Patricia J. Williams writes that many aspects of Jar Jar's character are highly reminiscent of the archetypes portrayed in blackface minstrelsy,[11] while others have suggested that the character is a "laid-back clown character" representing a black Caribbean stereotype.[12] George Lucas, however, has denied any intentional similarity."
Needless to say, I'm very curious as to how effectively explicitly racial role-playing went at people's tables. It struck me as a high-risk, high-reward tactic by Paizo's designers.
IMHO, It's doesn't seem a real issue, given there isn't any dumb cultural stereotype associations of "Black people" (African ethnicity) with Drow/Dark Elves (they have an evil flesh-warping matriarchy split off from the (already more "alien") Golarion Elves, and they don't play bongo drums... where's any insulting analogies there?) Since there DO exist strong "African" Human nationalities in Golarion (Mwangi, Osirion), I would never get the impression that the Drow are "about" emulating a "Black people" stereotype.
... Unless maybe Paizo has something against African-American Goths...?
That said, I understand your point about the 'coincidental' correlation of "Dark = Evil", "Light/Aryan) = Good". And that's really a heritage from D&D, Tolkien, & Western Culture(tm) generally... I mean that it's "coincidence" that D&D created the Evil Drow race as pitch black, even though they live underground in caves (an irrational choice by itself), while creating their counterpart the Elves in an ultra-Aryan model.
...So I guess what I'm saying is, that I think Paizo has dealt with such a heritage as best it can, not destroying it, because everyone expects it, but emphasizing the "alien-ness" of Drow AND Elves over D&D's overly-Aryan-esque tone (for Elves). ...PRO-actively, I think besides the Osirioni(Egyptian), Kelesh(Arab/Persian), and Mwangi(Bantu/Pygmy) Human ethnicities which exist in Golarion, I think Paizo would do very well to introduce some advanced, intelligent, good-aligned race/species who coincidentally has very dark skin.
...But yeah, Rasta-Binks only reinforces the depths to which Star Wars descended in the "new" episodes.
Hence the inclusion of Drizzt as another source of possible emulation. In essence, since the players can't RP their characters, and their characters have astonishingly little knowledge of drow society at the time, what tack are PCs taking in this mission?
IMHO, It's doesn't seem a real issue, given there isn't any dumb cultural stereotype associations of "Black people" (African ethnicity)
What about Asians? There are black Asians, you know.
... Unless maybe Paizo has something against African-American Goths...?
What if they're not African?
Or American?I think "African-American" is way more racist than "black". I mean, the guys are black, or very nearly so. Nothing bad about that. But just assuming that everyone with dark skin is an American whose ancestors were taken from Africa in recent history is quite dumb.
I think Paizo would do very well to introduce some advanced, intelligent, good-aligned race/species who coincidentally has very dark skin.
Unless there's a real reason for doing so, I think they shouldn't do it.
And, for the record: Pandering to insecure people who have to interpret some Aryan ideals into everything in D&D is not a real reason.
What's next? Can we no longer say "dark times ahead?" "Black magic" being racist. Korvosan's hero being AfricanAmericanJack?
...But yeah, Rasta-Binks only reinforces the depths to which Star Wars descended in the "new" episodes.
You don't have to read racial stereotyping into jarjar - he's awful all by himself.
... Unless maybe Paizo has something against African-American Goths...?
What if they're not African?
Or American?
Darn Goths. I hate those guys. Always burning down buildings and pillaging villages.
I think Paizo would do very well to introduce some advanced, intelligent, good-aligned race/species who coincidentally has very dark skin.Unless there's a real reason for doing so, I think they shouldn't do it.
And, for the record: Pandering to insecure people who have to interpret some Aryan ideals into everything in D&D is not a real reason.
What's next? Can we no longer say "dark times ahead?" "Black magic" being racist. Korvosan's hero being AfricanAmericanJack?
The original post really seems to be trying to make an issue of a non-issue. As for how a player has his character act while disguised as a drow, if they're smart they are taking hints from how the GM portrayed the drow. Someone doing a Jar-Jar Binks impersonation? I have some of the dumber D&D players I've ever met and even they wouldn't do something that rediculous and stupid.
Darn Goths. I hate those guys. Always burning down buildings and pillaging villages.
I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.
I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.
Darn Goths. I hate those guys. Always burning down buildings and pillaging villages.
Goths = Visigoths.
I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.
Goths and Visigoths. They sacked Rome a couple times.
Goths = Visigoths.I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.
Darn Goths. I hate those guys. Always burning down buildings and pillaging villages.
East Germanic tribes that harried the Roman Empire in the 3rd and 4th centuries. Eventually became the Visigoths and Ostrogoths.
I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.Goths and Visigoths. They sacked Rome a couple times.
Yes. I know that.
I meant a connection between them pillaging and burning and him hating them. I can't find a logical connection between the two.
I have tried. For hours. Yet, I cannot find a connection between your statements.Goths and Visigoths. They sacked Rome a couple times.Yes. I know that.
I meant a connection between them pillaging and burning and him hating them. I can't find a logical connection between the two.
To quote Foghorn Leghorn, it's a joke, son. Ye're supposed to laugh.
Besides, wouldn't you hate someone who's always pillaging and burning down things?
The original post really seems to be trying to make an issue of a non-issue. As for how a player has his character act while disguised as a drow, if they're smart they are taking hints from how the GM portrayed the drow. Someone doing a Jar-Jar Binks impersonation? I have some of the dumber D&D players I've ever met and even they wouldn't do something that rediculous and stupid.
As the OP, I feel like you're misinterpreting what I've actually written. Jar-Jar is a classic example of a minstrelsy-performance style outside the American setting. The relevant observation was the underlying performing style that informed black face.
I posted asking how players actually handled their characters going around in black face, which the module quite literally asks them to do. I gave two examples of possible ways that I thought players might take it, one fictional (Drizztesque silent, depressive loner) or real world (minstrelsy). I'm curious how players actually RP'ed this because a) modules very rarely require players to go undercover for so long and b) it seemed like a scenario ripe for RP disasters, either in racial or, now that I re-read that section of the AP, inappropriate sexual violence directions.
The players have to pattern their performance of drow based on some guide, cultural or fictional in origin, because they cannot pattern their performance based on observation of actual drow, for obvious reasons.
And your opinion is that it's a non-issue, but we can't find out if your assumption is correct until we ask the question of how this actually went.
And, thus far, nobody has actually stated how this section of the AP went at their table. Everyone has avoided the question or needed me to clarify the question. Now that it's clarified, how about actually answering the question?
|
|
The original post really seems to be trying to make an issue of a non-issue. As for how a player has his character act while disguised as a drow, if they're smart they are taking hints from how the GM portrayed the drow. Someone doing a Jar-Jar Binks impersonation? I have some of the dumber D&D players I've ever met and even they wouldn't do something that rediculous and stupid.As the OP, I feel like you're misinterpreting what I've actually written. Jar-Jar is a classic example of a minstrelsy-performance style outside the American setting. The relevant observation was the underlying performing style that informed black face.
I posted asking how players actually handled their characters going around in black face, which the module quite literally asks them to do. I gave two examples of possible ways that I thought players might take it, one fictional (Drizztesque silent, depressive loner) or real world (minstrelsy). I'm curious how players actually RP'ed this because a) modules very rarely require players to go undercover for so long and b) it seemed like a scenario ripe for RP disasters, either in racial or, now that I re-read that section of the AP, inappropriate sexual violence directions.
The players have to pattern their performance of drow based on some guide, cultural or fictional in origin, because they cannot pattern their performance based on observation of actual drow, for obvious reasons.
And your opinion is that it's a non-issue, but we can't find out if your assumption is correct until we ask the question of how this actually went.
And, thus far, nobody has actually stated how this section of the AP went at their table. Everyone has avoided the question or needed me to clarify the question. Now that it's clarified, how about actually answering the question?
I tried to answer the question, inasmuch as I never played it; I never made the connection myself so perhaps for me, anyway, it wouldn't have come up(?)
Then the pooflinging started and I got bored with it all.
Besides, wouldn't you hate someone who's always pillaging and burning down things?
Why? As long as he keeps away from my stuff and pillages and burns as I tell him...
I'll be able to tell how things went in a month. Frankly, the elf in my group seems to be almost as twisted and evil as a drow anyway, so it probably won't be a stretch for him. And he certainly won't be doing a Drizz't impersonation.
Heck, I could actually see him staying a black-skinned elf, without necessarily wanting to. Now wouldn't that suck for the rest of the party.
I'll be able to tell how things went in a month. Frankly, the elf in my group seems to be almost as twisted and evil as a drow anyway, so it probably won't be a stretch for him. And he certainly won't be doing a Drizz't impersonation.
Heck, I could actually see him staying a black-skinned elf, without necessarily wanting to. Now wouldn't that suck for the rest of the party.
Let us know how it goes.
I tried to answer the question, inasmuch as I never played it; I never made the connection myself so perhaps for me, anyway, it wouldn't have come up(?)...
Yeah, I see that. And I SO agree that thread graffiti is boring.
I tried to answer the question, inasmuch as I never played it; I never made the connection myself so perhaps for me, anyway, it wouldn't have come up(?)...Yeah, I see that. And I SO agree that thread graffiti is boring.
I hate to say this, but I think the original post was very flawed. The actual intent of the post wasn't clear and using certain terms such as "black face" made it seem that there was some sort of racial part to the question that apparently wasn't there. Also, any mention of Jar-Jar in connection with drow is really out in left field. Minstrely performance doesn't really seem like an obvious choice in regards to a cruel, demon-worshipping race.
I hate to say this, but I think the original post was very flawed. The actual intent of the post wasn't clear and using certain terms such as "black face" made it seem that there was some sort of racial part to the question that apparently wasn't there. Also, any mention of Jar-Jar in connection with drow is really out in left field. Minstrely performance doesn't really seem like an obvious choice in regards to a cruel, demon-worshipping race.I tried to answer the question, inasmuch as I never played it; I never made the connection myself so perhaps for me, anyway, it wouldn't have come up(?)...Yeah, I see that. And I SO agree that thread graffiti is boring.
Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Still, there is a racial part to the question if the players put it there. (That would be where the example of Jar-Jar comes from.) And every person I've described this to has said, "Oh, so there's blackface."
Alternatively, they can go another way (Drizzt). Or a third way (S&M 4evah). Still, I've not heard much from people on how their players did with this element of the adventure.
And every person I've described this to has said, "Oh, so there's blackface."
Really? You've really had people actually put it like that? Every single one of them? Honestly?
I'm going to just let it go, because it starts to get WAAAAY off track from what the intent of the original post was. You could, perhaps, make you question more clear right from the start next time. Obviously your chosen words did cause some initial confusion before you expanded on what you meant.
And every person I've described this to has said, "Oh, so there's blackface."
Really? You've really had people actually put it like that? Every single one of them? Honestly?
I'm going to just let it go, because it starts to get WAAAAY off track from what the intent of the original post was. You could, perhaps, make you question more clear right from the start next time. Obviously your chosen words did cause some initial confusion before you expanded on what you meant.
Three people, yep. (And understanding Jar-Jar in that manner was instantaneous to everyone I knew because I work at a film school and we've all seen enough blackface and minstrelsy to identify it, whether it be in vaudeville, DW Griffith, or Spike Lee's Bamboozled.) The connotations and subtext seemed so very obvious to me, I was surprised I had to explain it. My bad, I guess.
Still, the fact that there's been no references to RPing it like the most famous drow is equally surprising. I'm also shocked that there've not been reports of campaigns gone wrong in that undercover mission either. Perhaps it's too soon for campaigns to have gotten that far?
|
Having seen Paizo's Drow art I'm not overly concerned about my players 'going purple-face'.
To be honest the number of black people I have met who have typically Drow features is pretty rare (to say the least)... Skin black as pitch, white hair, elongated, pointed ears, lavender or grey eyes that glow in the dark, ability to levitate, false controversy, etc.