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Yay for couch! I'd say "Feast upon colorants and artificial flavors, and unknown-origin 'meat'" but it matters not! It is TEH Taco Bell. And, dammit, the special edition mountain dew! It should be illegal to reserve such delicious things from going to other countries, I say.Life without Taco Bell!! Come my friend you can sleep on the couch and we will feast upon...uhm does anybody know what kinda (meat?) they use?
anyway it doesn't matter it's so goooooood :)
Unknown "meat"... this reminds me of that line in Demolition Man where he's eating the burger in the sewer refuge and the one goes "Do you see any cows down here?" And helz yeah on the Mt Dew!! I drink a 2 ltr a day
Being late to this thread, but still: The US served as a moral compass to the western world (or at least Germany) since the second world war, and it is viewed as a template for democratic countries because it is the oldest democracy still existing.
Now, if this role model for all that is viewed as good and just stoops down to things like unjustified wars, torturing prisoners and committing war crimes, neglecting or even knowingly denying universal human rights, this moral compass takes a severe beating, and the outcry is accordingly.
You expect things like these from other, less democratic countries, like Russia or China. This does not apologize these countries at all, but it is not surprising. I think most europeans expect the US to lead by example, and if the US doesn´t, it will be an argumentative problem: If even the leader of the democratic world stoops down to using criminal means to reach their ends, any criticism on other criminals is that much harder. (I´m sure that the US often used underhanded means to reach their goals, it is pretty much inevitable. But there is a difference in admitting it as a necessary evil or using these means routinely.)
Another thing which has endeared Obama to germans at least is his willingness to look into ecological and environmental protection topics, about which the Bush administration apparently didn´t care at all. Again, if the worlds economic superpower, still even in this economic troubled times, cares about these topics, it can set examples for others.
Mind you, none of these things are more than declarations of intent right now, but after the Bush administration, which did not endear itself to Europe with this "Old Europe" hogwash, the expectations are very high, and Obama is given a lot of advance credit. Politics being as they are, we will have to wait and see what comes of this, of course.
Stefan
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Yes they will. So you going to lower yourself to their level? (I also note you didn't answer the question. Would it be torture or not?)Which, even Obama admits, is what is going to happen regardless of what we do.Not to be overly rude Uzzy but I couldn't care less for the rights of someone who was tryin to kill me. I know thats not an evolved way of thinking but I wasn't called Captian Caveman fer nothing in Highschool ;)Me neither, when they are trying to kill me. Self defence and all that.
When you've captured them though, then you should respect their rights, under international law.
Let me put it another way. If Iran captured some US Special Forces, or a US Pilot, snooping around their country, and stuck them in a legal black hole, waterboarded and 'walled' them, would you say it's torture? Of course you would. Torture is the thing the bad guys do.
I beg your indulgence while I answer your question with a question. If waterboarding is torture, should we prosocute the protesters that waterboarded one of their own outside the Capital building?
Edit: Also by admitting that the enemy will engage in those behaviors regardless of what we do, you have removed the most common argument used by those who oppose such techniques, which is that doing so puts our servicemen in harm's way. You have just admitted that we are no less safe for having used such techniques.
Both those protesters, and the US servicemen, volunteered to have that done to them. In one case to prove a point, in the other case because they want to serve their country. Not the same as the real thing, my friend, where you are taken from your country (or in some cases US soil), flown half way round the world, stuck in hole and tortured.
Now, yes. The 'bad guys' will always torture. What you've lost is your moral authority when it happens. What you've lost is your moral authority when another country kidnaps a US citizen, sticks them in a hole and tortures them.
As for the 'less safe' argument, by doing this, you've created more anger towards the US from the Muslim world (and left Europe far less willing to help out). Yes, a hardcore of people will always hate the Americans, but what that torture did was give people more reasons to move closer to the position of hating America, and give more people reasons to not want to help out. Even worse, it's prejudiced the chances of ever getting any of those prisoners in Gitmo convicted for their crimes.
No to be honest I agree with you here.I grow increasingly certain that politics discussions on a gaming site are utterly pointless and should be banned.
I'd love you guys to prove me wrong, but this tit-for-tat BS is not doing the trick at the moment.
You see I don't get this. All politics are 'tit for tat BS' if you look at it a certain way. If we don't have an outlet to discuss issues then how are we to evolve our thoughts on said issues? Honestly, if you don't enjoy political talk on your gaming site, keep the browser away from the OTD threads. It's that simple. I for one enjoy discussing political items, and I have even (gasp) modified my stance on certain issues due to cogent points brought up by other posters. That is what debate is all about.
Should we also ban discussion of movies and TV shows? Non-Pathfinder gaming systems? There's a 'civil religious thread' should that get tossed out too?
It's easy to ban things you don't agree with. It's harder to face people who disagree with you and defend your position. I am proud posters on this site for the most part do the latter.
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Both those protesters, and the US servicemen, volunteered to have that done to them. In one case to prove a point, in the other case because they want to serve their country. Not the same as the real thing, my friend, where you are taken from your country (or in some cases US soil), flown half way round the world, stuck in hole and tortured.
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act itself is not torture, but the way it is carried out is. Is that a correct analysis?
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Yes, no taco bell franchises exist here.
*the author does not speak, however, about the possible side effects of Taco Bell
Actually I heard a news report last summer that they opened a Taco Bell in Mexico City. It was the most hilarious thing I had heard in a while.
Edit: Found an article on it. Apparently it was two years ago.
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No to be honest I agree with you here.
I grow increasingly certain that politics discussions on a gaming site are utterly pointless and should be banned.
I'd love you guys to prove me wrong, but this tit-for-tat BS is not doing the trick at the moment.
I feel the same way. It's just the same talking heads from both sides hammering away at each other. They demonize the other side to a comical degree under the guise that it means something. On the plus side, it's always good to read for a laugh or two.
I think it's still okay to hate the Chinese, French, and gamers. ;p If you are French, it is okay to continue hating the rest of the world. ;p x2
Hey ! I am french. And gamer. Don't feed my paranoia...
It's true i hate the world, but that's not because i'm french.
I actually hate France too.
I suspect some jealousy is involved. Also the French cultural disposition toward cretinism.
Kudos for the stereotype, Mr Mona.
I guess i could be offended. But then it would serve your argument.
A church in North Carolina was surprised by a special visitor on Sunday, the Lord God Almighty.
Hmmm... three weeks late, I guess?
Stefan
I suspect some jealousy is involved. Also the French cultural disposition toward cretinism.
Kudos for the stereotype, Mr Mona.
I guess i could be offended. But then it would serve your argument.
I always thought that the most often used stereotype for the french is their arrogance with which they view all lesser beings(i.e., non-french)?
Stefan
He wasn't a C Student in college...he also hasn't flipped off the camera while it's on...Both. He is smarter, and his image is better portrayed.Okay, what has he done to prove he is smarter?
You seriously believe that a what grades a person gets is a clear indicator of their intelligence? Smart people are never lazy?
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Yes, no taco bell franchises exist here.
*the author does not speak, however, about the possible side effects of Taco Bell
Actually I heard a news report last summer that they opened a Taco Bell in Mexico City. It was the most hilarious thing I had heard in a while.
Edit: Found an article on it. Apparently it was two years ago.
Americanized Mexican fast food in Mexico...man I don't even eat that crap...good Mexican food was the one thing I missed when I was in Washington for 3 years...and Taco Bell didn't cut it...
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You seriously believe that a what grades a person gets is a clear indicator of their intelligence? Smart people are never lazy?He wasn't a C Student in college...he also hasn't flipped off the camera while it's on...Both. He is smarter, and his image is better portrayed.Okay, what has he done to prove he is smarter?
Speaking from the perspective of a person who got D&Fs when I was a teenager, to getting As in college when I went back, no.
But then again, I know that Strategery isn't a word...and that nuclear isn't pronounced Nuke-U-Lar...
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I suspect some jealousy is involved. Also the French cultural disposition toward cretinism.
Kudos for the stereotype, Mr Mona.
I guess i could be offended. But then it would serve your argument.I always thought that the most often used stereotype for the french is their arrogance with which they view all lesser beings(i.e., non-french)?
Stefan
As my high school film analysis teacher once told our class, stereotypes may not be true, but they do have a basis in fact.
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and that nuclear isn't pronounced Nuke-U-Lar...
Is that how tomato isn't pronounced Toe-mate-toe or isn't pronounced toe-mah-toe, or how it's pronounced Drow? Seriously, I'll give you strategery, that was bad, but I hate when people start knocking pronunciation as if there has ever been a gold standard and not just regional dialect. Personally I want to cram my fist down the throat of anyone who ever had an idear (spelled the way I have heard idea pronounced) but I don't take it as a knock on their intelligence.
As my high school film analysis teacher once told our class, stereotypes may not be true, but they do have a basis in fact.I suspect some jealousy is involved. Also the French cultural disposition toward cretinism.
Kudos for the stereotype, Mr Mona.
I guess i could be offended. But then it would serve your argument.I always thought that the most often used stereotype for the french is their arrogance with which they view all lesser beings(i.e., non-french)?
Stefan
Yeah, all these nice stereotypes come from somewhere - otherwise, they would not exist as stereotypes. (That does not mean that they are broadly applicable, however) Further, It would suck big time if we would have to give them up :-) While we´re at it, do you all have stereotypes about germans? I always love to hear these kind of things and compare them to reality.
Stefan
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and that nuclear isn't pronounced Nuke-U-Lar...Is that how tomato isn't pronounced Toe-mate-toe or isn't pronounced toe-mah-toe, or how it's pronounced Drow? Seriously, I'll give you strategery, that was bad, but I hate when people start knocking pronunciation as if there has ever been a gold standard and not just regional dialect. Personally I want to cram my fist down the throat of anyone who ever had an idear (spelled the way I have heard idea pronounced) but I don't take it as a knock on their intelligence.
Tomato and Nuclear are completely different creatures...
In tomato, "ma" can be pronouced Mah, or May, in the middle of a word.
There is only 1 "U" in Nuclear...it can't be pronounced Nook-YOU-Lar...because there aren't two "U"s...it's not an alternate pronunciation in the dictionary...sorry...no. That is just an uneducated pronunciation. (It's called metathesis when you transpose letter or sounds in a word, doesn't make it right.)
Do the English teachers teach people to say Idear in those areas??? No, they don't...it's a matter of letting local dialect overwrite what they've learned.
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Ok, as a Mexican I have a few things to say:
I had already seen that article, I lived in Mexico City and never saw a single, A SINGLE Taco Bell establishment, to my despair. When I moved out of there, I didn't find it elsewhere.
A) Carlos Monsiváis, as cultured as he may be, I believe he has never eaten at Taco Bell. He said that Taco Bell in Mexico is like bringing ice to the Arctic. Taco Bell is NOT, by far, mexican food. It is... urhg... [???]... I dont' know. Typical Yuggoth cuisine disguised as mexican only in name? Calling Taco Bell mexican would be calling Chop Suey chinese food. Misguiding, but not accurate.
B) Yes, our country is overrun with fast food franchises, but they're successful. Instead of complaining, people should stop purchasing, if they're really against them.
C) I demand that Mountain Dew is sold again in Mexico. That is all.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I suspect some jealousy is involved. Also the French cultural disposition toward cretinism.
Kudos for the stereotype, Mr Mona.
I guess i could be offended. But then it would serve your argument.
It was meant in the most positive way imaginable.
Serge Gainsbourg, my favorite musician in history, epitomizes what I am talking about. And you've got to admit Sarkozy has a bit of it about him as well.
I love the French.
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He said that Taco Bell in Mexico is like bringing ice to the Arctic. Taco Bell is NOT, by far, mexican food. It is... urhg... [???]... I dont' know. Typical Yuggoth cuisine disguised as mexican only in name? Calling Taco Bell mexican would be calling Chop Suey chinese food. Misguiding, but not accurate.
Most Americanized foods are not like what's made in the home country and that includes Mexican, Chinese and even Italian.
Sigh...now if only a good German restaurant would open up near me.
And you've got to admit Sarkozy has a bit of it about him as well.
I love the French.
Except Sarkozy has a Hungarian father and his motherly grandfather was a Jew of Greek nationality...
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[
You see I don't get this. All politics are 'tit for tat BS' if you look at it a certain way. If we don't have an outlet to discuss issues then how are we to evolve our thoughts on said issues? Honestly, if you don't enjoy political talk on your gaming site, keep the browser away from the OTD threads. It's that simple. I for one enjoy discussing political items, and I have even (gasp) modified my stance on certain issues due to cogent points brought up by other posters. That is what debate is all about.
To be honest I've seen this sort of thing happen before on places like Librarium online they would allow political discussion (Which I actually normally enjoy) Unfortunately what always happens is certain people on either size just cant let a point go or feel they have to win the argument which means they inevitable just turn into page long arguments as and as was said on one of the other forums I frequented "Why should we pay for bandwith for people to insult and argue with each other when there are already political websites for that?"
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I feel the same way. It's just the same talking heads from both sides hammering away at each other. They demonize the other side to a comical degree under the guise that it means something. On the plus side, it's always good to read for a laugh or two.No to be honest I agree with you here.
I grow increasingly certain that politics discussions on a gaming site are utterly pointless and should be banned.
I'd love you guys to prove me wrong, but this tit-for-tat BS is not doing the trick at the moment.
Exactly what I meant I mean you know there's something up when you go to the gamer den to see calm rational political discussion over the Paizo forums
The two stereotypes I have heard about Germans is that they are authoritarian and anti-democracy.
** spoiler omitted **
These stereotypes again have some truth to them. Only in Prussia of 1906 it was possible that a ex-convict cobbler who had bought old captains uniform parts from various peddlers commandeered a few soldiers and had them seize the local townhall of Köpenick and seize the cash reserves there, without any meaningful protest against this, and making off with the cash. He was arrested much later. It was quite the scandal of the day, that if you wore a military uniform in Germany, you HAD to be right in whatever you do, no questions asked.
More later, got to go.
Stefan
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To be honest I've seen this sort of thing happen before on places like Librarium online they would allow political discussion (Which I actually normally enjoy) Unfortunately what always happens is certain people on either size just cant let a point go or feel they have to win the argument which means they inevitable just turn into page long arguments as and as was said on one of the other forums I frequented "Why should we pay for bandwith for people to insult and argue with each other when there are already political websites for that?"[
You see I don't get this. All politics are 'tit for tat BS' if you look at it a certain way. If we don't have an outlet to discuss issues then how are we to evolve our thoughts on said issues? Honestly, if you don't enjoy political talk on your gaming site, keep the browser away from the OTD threads. It's that simple. I for one enjoy discussing political items, and I have even (gasp) modified my stance on certain issues due to cogent points brought up by other posters. That is what debate is all about.
I humbly and respectfully disagree. I believe that most people are being quite civil, particularly in this thread. Yes we have had some blow ups in other threads, but honestly I have seen blowups that were just as bad or worse in playtest threads and the infamous Edition Wars. Certain people just like to argue and insult each other and if they don't do it in political threads, they will just do it in other threads. The only way to avoid wasting bandwidth with that is to shut down the boards entirely. That is my opinion.
To be honest I've seen this sort of thing happen before on places like Librarium online they would allow political discussion (Which I actually normally enjoy) Unfortunately what always happens is certain people on either size just cant let a point go or feel they have to win the argument which means they inevitable just turn into page long arguments as and as was said on one of the other forums I frequented "Why should we pay for bandwith for people to insult and argue with each other when there are already political websites for that?"
But Kevin, no one is forcing you to look at these threads. There are plenty of inane threads in the OTD section, that's kinda the point. I don't want to go to a political website, because most of them plant a flag on one side of the political spectrum and differing opinions aren't welcome. Plus, I spend most of my time here, if I was on some other site I wouldn't be updating my PbPs as often..:P
Except Sarkozy has a Hungarian father and his motherly grandfather was a Jew of Greek nationality...And you've got to admit Sarkozy has a bit of it about him as well.
I love the French.
Lucien Ginsburg (aka Serge Gainsbourg) was born from Russian Jewish immigrants. So he's got a point here.
I love the French too. However, I can never again set foot in that country. Too many angry husbands are hunting me there. ;)
I did not realize France legalized same-sex marriages. Good for them!
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Both those protesters, and the US servicemen, volunteered to have that done to them. In one case to prove a point, in the other case because they want to serve their country. Not the same as the real thing, my friend, where you are taken from your country (or in some cases US soil), flown half way round the world, stuck in hole and tortured.
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act itself is not torture, but the way it is carried out is. Is that a correct analysis?
No. Waterboarding is torture, under both the definition from the UN Convention on Torture, and under Title 18 of the U.S. Code (Part I, chapter 113C, section 2340).
Spoiler:Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
Spoiler:(1) “torture” means an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control; (2) “severe mental pain or suffering” means the prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from—
(A) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering;
(B) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality;
(C) the threat of imminent death; or
(D) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality;
The act of volunteering for it means it's not a crime, however.
I love the French too. However, I can never again set foot in that country. Too many angry husbands are hunting me there. ;)I did not realize France legalized same-sex marriages. Good for them!
BAA ZING!
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The two stereotypes I have heard about Germans is that they are authoritarian and anti-democracy.
From what I have heard the democracy thing comes from Hitler having been democratically elected.
Hitler was not democratically elected. (As he never won more then 50% of the vote). He got a majority in the Reichstag, then was helped into power by the machinations and intrigues of the German Elite, especially Baron von Papen, who felt that by giving Hitler the chancellor ship, they could reverse many of the Weimar socialist tendencies through Hitler's popular support.
That didn't quite work out.
Well to be fair in a lot of these discussions that's all I'm seeing here.
Kevin, meet humanity.
Some folks dismiss politicians on the basis of style over substance--but honestly, a politician must fuse both together in order to be effective in any kind of representational government. At first, people liked Bush for his 'folksiness'--but that only got him so far. Similarly, people love Obama because he is well spoken--but that will only get him so far. Bush failed to capitalize on his folksiness and the good will Americans extended him in the wake of 911; it remains to be seen if Obama can capitalize on his persona and the good will Americans are extending him right now.
One big sea change I've noticed, though. In the Bush years, people were suspicious of intellectuals (look how Kerry was perceived); now our country seems to be comfortable with the idea of having smart folks in the halls of power. Personally, I want bright people running the country--yet I understand the fear of letting someone smarter than you take charge and be in a position to pull the wool over your eyes...
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Both those protesters, and the US servicemen, volunteered to have that done to them. In one case to prove a point, in the other case because they want to serve their country. Not the same as the real thing, my friend, where you are taken from your country (or in some cases US soil), flown half way round the world, stuck in hole and tortured.
So, if I understand you correctly, you are saying that the act itself is not torture, but the way it is carried out is. Is that a correct analysis?
No. Waterboarding is torture, under both the definition from the UN Convention on Torture, and under Title 18 of the U.S. Code (Part I, chapter 113C, section 2340).
Then if waterboarding is torture, shouldn't those who perform the act be prosecuted for it? If torture is illegal then it should not matter if the victim volunteered or not, the act itself is the crime. After all, we prosecute doctors that perform euthinasia for murder. At least that is my opinion.
. I don't want to go to a political website, because most of them plant a flag on one side of the political spectrum and differing opinions aren't welcome.Well to be fair in a lot of these discussions that's all I'm seeing here.
Actually I find the people who usually discuss politics here are a nice mix ..I'd say 50/30/20 Left/Right/Neither.
Usually the topic ends up veering all over the place, and if things get out of hand, like with that one dood right after the election calling for the death of all conservatives, well, that's why we have a flag option and the mighty Postmonster has a timeout function.
Now, you have threads like 'Congressional Republicans Confuse Me' that started as a rant as to why the 'Pubs didn't just shut their pie holes and vote for the stimulus package. That thread has morphed into a general discussion of taxation and the long term effects of these massive debt numbers. You have the 'Is it me or is American culture increasingly nihilistic?' thread which pruported that due to the Hollywood film 'Knowing' that America was in 'crazyland'. But that odd thread spawned a very nice side discussion about what nihilism really IS.
Communication is a great tool for learning. If you aren't hidebound in your political views you can learn a lot by the views of others. My 2 cents.