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Hi, my name is Laz and I'm addicted to 4th Edition
So after playing in multipul 4e pbps I come to love it as much if not more than 3.5.
Now what I'd really like to do is give it a go in real world. Problem is I don't know how to get my usual group to try it. The gaming community is nil and my usual group consists of my friends (husband/wife) who are completly and totally against 4e. They haven't looked at it, and won't even think about.
What can I do to peek their interest? I really would like to run and they're pretty much the only game in town
HI Laz!
You can pique their interest by running a game as a one-shot, and making it work. Tell them that there are people who like 4e, and that the merits of the system only really come forward through gameplay. You can also tell them the stories from the PBPs you are playing in, as a subtle way to show that roleplaying and story are still possible in 4e.
Good luck.
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HI Laz!
You can pique their interest by running a game as a one-shot, and making it work. Tell them that there are people who like 4e, and that the merits of the system only really come forward through gameplay. You can also tell them the stories from the PBPs you are playing in, as a subtle way to show that roleplaying and story are still possible in 4e.
Good luck.
I've discussed the one-shot idea. Thought about running the adventure from last years D&D Day. Got shot down
Everytime anyone mentions 4e their brains shut down and they try to change the subject. Yesterday I talked about the Spellgard game I was in, Merryc changed the subject to his BESM D&D game,
I think they just like bring stubborn...
Ach! Smash their faces and damn them for fools!
Apart from the general stubborn, what are their specific aversions/fears? Are they particularly avid role-players/power builders/just hate changers?
If you can identify the specific problem - even if it's just as simple as "don't want to go to the trouble of rolling a pc for something I know I'll hate" you can offer to run a short (i.e. no more than 2 encounters and a skill challenge in a flavourful setting) with pre-generated characters.
One short session playing 4e may not change their minds, but it may help to show why you like it so much. Even if it doesn't, you're asking for 4-5 hours from them, and it would be a little churlish of them to refuse that.
That said, if they won't, they won't, but gamers are hard to find. It's worth finding out what their particular gripe against 4e is.
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I'm one of those players who will probably never play a 4E game. It's a personal choice.
Having said that, however, I know friends who do play and enjoy 4E. Despite much of the criticism I've heard about skill challenges and 4E being a tactical combat game, my friend creates his own 4E campaign rich with storytelling. I even enjoy hearing about their campaign, and have offered plot and character ideas etc, without even knowing the differences between the rules.
By all means, don't censor your 4E stories around your friends, and keep the door open to them maybe joining in someday, in their own time, on their own terms, but constant urging is going to push someone who isn't interested further away (ala the shutting down, changing topic response).
I'd recommend finding other players who do enjoy 4E, and when your other group hear how much fun you're having, one of them might become curious on what they're missing out on (but only if his friends don't find out).
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Their list goes on like this
1)4e is stupid
2)The rules are stupid
3)There's no need for a cleric when a character can heal its self
4)Power are stupid
5)Races are stupid
Noticing a theme yet
6)The rule are to dumbed down
7)Minions are stupid
8)The new skills are stupid
9)Monster in 4e are stupid
10)I'm not able to make multipul attacks in a round... stupid
This could go for awhile, but I think you get the point. If it's not 3e or BESM it's not worth their time.
Again I just don't know how to get them into it. Everytime I get shot down, maybe that's just how it has to be. It's time like this I wish there were more players, but pbps are better than nothing, plus I have fun.
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Perhaps offer to run some 4E sessions at your local game store, or university, or wherever RPG curious people might be found. It sounds like you're not going to get any positive response from your current group with their current attitudes, so don't let it get you down, you need to look elsewhere, and maybe meet some great new RPG friends in the process. Not saying you need to abandon your current group, they're still good for 3.5 and BESM, so you should continue to enjoy that, but apparently not for 4E.
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I'd recommend finding other players who do enjoy 4E, and when your other group hear how much fun you're having, one of them might become curious on what they're missing out on (but only if his friends don't find out).
Only problem is that here players are HARD to find. People are embarrassed or ashamed to show their love for it out in the open. One of the main reasons the gaminf stores have all closed up.
People who do play keep it to themselves and their groups have normally been playing for years, , and don't take kindly to new players.
My two friend own one of the last, and new, game stores in town. But even than most of the people, kids and adults, just come to play pokemon. I tried to get others involved, but get met with stares and big time religous backlash.
There are people out there who will just hate 4E because it's not 3.5. :( It's a shame they're being close-minded about it.
It is a pity, but the whole point of freedom of choice is the freedom to say "not for me". Saying it on the basis of no real experience or information is short-sighted, but if that's how it is, so be it.
A "gamer's wanted" notice in places that sell 4e books might be a start, but otherwise I can't really offer much in the way of suggestions or comfort.
EDITED to stress that the above comment was not aimed at any of the posters on this thread, but at Laz's gaming friends.
Oh man, it took so long for me to get 1 of my groups to try 4e. My real advantage was that I'm the only one in that group with the time to commit to DMing and I had 1 pro-4e supporter. At first I heard the same arguments as Laz, but I talked to each person individually and I did my best to make it non-confrontational.
In the end every "it's dumb" argument turned out to be an attempt to cover up that they just didn't want to buy a new D&D. For some it didn't matter about a new game, that would have been fine, but no new D&D. They didn't want to pay for new books and waste the thousands of dollars spent on old books. I finally convinced them that they didn't have to buy anything to play. They already knew most of the actual rules and most of what they needed to know was on their character sheet or in the powers. I told them that they weren't wasting the old books either. Fluff is transferable, and a lot of prestige classes have become paragon paths. With a better familiarity some things could be converted. And my final point: 3.x wasn't going anywhere. At the very worst we would try out a rule set that they didn't like and we might lose a few hours.
I built characters for those without books, and present them options at each level up. I told them to focus on their characters story and roleplaying and not about mechanics. I studied Keep on the Shadowfell and made certain I knew the NPC's. That's right, I ran a 4e game with emphasis on roleplaying. And it's working. They're 3rd level and near the end of Keep on the Shadowfell, and evryone wants to keep it going.
If your community is really that small, with no more potential gamers, then you're really fighting an uphill battle with your group if NONE of them will consider 4E.
As some have mentioned, a lot of anti-4E mentality comes from people who don't want to learn a rules system or spend money on a game when they already have tons of 3E stuff sitting around.
If you're willing to run the game and invest in the books, then tell them they won't need any materials themselves and everyone can just share. If they end up liking it they'll all likely end up buying a PHB anyway.
Other than that, I don't know what to tell you. After playing 4E, the idea of ever starting a 3E campaign at level 1 ever again doesn't sound very exciting but I'm fortunate enough to live in a big city with plenty of gamers in it if you're willing to look around.
Keep at it and just try and get some better discussion going. The fact that all they're saying is that "it's stupid" shows me they probably just don't want to invest the time. If you could just convince them to invest some time and effort, then they'd probably enjoy it.
As for everyone healing themselves, second wind is usually just a small drop in the bucket and without a cleric or other leader around, things can go south really fast. (This argument is a pet peeve of mine)
Also, I think WoTC has a message board in their forums specifically for people trying to find a group. You could post on there and see what happens. You may be able to find a group reasonably close if you're lucky.
You can always try to convince them to at least play a one-shot with you where you prepare everything, but don't be surprised if it turns out that their dislike will get stronger once they see the actual rules.
Darkwhite
Perhaps you should give a one-shot of 4th ed a try. Don't worry it doesn't hurt and you might just like it.
I'm not darkwhite, but I wouldn't, even if I could. Which I can't: I know no one who has the books, so even if I wanted to waste time on the game, the option just doesn't present itself.
I'm a die-hard 3.5/PF player but I think I might be able to help. Back when 4e came out my gaming group split in half, and it got UGLY. But, now that some time has passed and the system-shock is wearing off, the smoke is clearing and we can talk again. I looked at the rules, and decided 4e was not for me, but I can also see why a lot of people enjoy it. So, I tend to mediate between editions for people when I can.
My point is, they sound very adamant about not playing 4e. But, what they aren't seeing is that 4e is just another version of the game they are already playing. You've tried the direct approach and it didn't work. Furthering that pursuit will only drive them further away. You might need to back off of them and wait for a moment in the current game to come to a close, and then possibly try to ask again. One reason they may be so against switching is that maybe they are in the middle of something big in-game already? Also, when you do approach them, try to show examples of what they like about 3e that exists in 4e (I couldn't find it in my case, but I wish you luck).
I was thinking as reading through the posts. I have seen resistance towards 4th edition also. Whatever game you play the main things is to have fun.
But enough of that. Have you thought about bringing in ideas from 4th edition into your current game to give the players a feel for some of the new stuff. Maybe a magic item that works once every 12 hours (daily power) or once every hour (encounter type). A wand of cure light wounds is like having healing surges.
I don't like how skill challenges are run so I just let my players role-play out the scene and tell them to roll a skill check to see how they would react.
There are other ideas out there. If any of them use the book of 9 swords then they are using elements of 4e in the game.
I'll second Runfer's notion of slowly adding elements of 4e into a 3e game and see if they like it. I'm not saying to "trick" them necessarily, just show them that maybe it wouldnt be so bad to try it once after they get a feel for some of it. Our 4e converted-DM implemented the minions from 4e into his last 3.5 game for the end battle and it helped, but we were pretty dismayed by them having only 1hp... Everyone needs to get some hands-on time with it before they can really argue that they don't like it.
But, what they aren't seeing is that 4e is just another version of the game they are already playing.
Only in name. In my opinion, and that of many D&D fans, 4e is nothing like earlier editions of D&D. I don't care what wizards says - for me, 4e is not related to D&D.
My dislike for 4e might be less if they hadn't tried it to sell it to me as the next edition of the RPG D&D.
And maybe that's the solution: Don't try to sell 4e as a D&D RPG to them.
Ask them if they're interested in a short beer&pretzels dungeon crawl/skirmish game using the 4e rules. Prepare everything and ask them for an hour or three of their time, independant on their other games.
I disagree with your position, but you may have a valid strategy for Laz to use.
I disagree with your position, but you may have a valid strategy for Laz to use.
Yes, I have. Because you disagree.
Apparently, you're already sold on 4e. You need no coercion or convincing.
As someone who's completely unsold on 4e, I can offer first-hand insights on the matter.
Exactly so. :D
I dunno, maybe I'm a jackass but I think the Dm is doing a lot of the work, if they wanna play game X then their players can say 'ok' or 'no'. If they opt for 'no' then it is their turn to DM and are welcome to the headaches therein.
Good point, well made. If the DM doesn't want to DM that game, one of them had better step up.
Good point, well made. If the DM doesn't want to DM that game, one of them had better step up.
Or, if none of them wants to run a game, or isn't really made for the GM's seat, they don't play at all.
Decisions like that should not be done easily. And they sure as hell should not be presented in a "You want to play your stupid game? Well YOU run it then!" tone, since that will increase the likelyhood that your gaming days are over quite significantly.
True indeed, and you're right, hostility is the worst way to tackle this. I've been asked by a player in our rela-life game to run 3.5 alongside 4E, and I had to demur. It's a shame as he really likes being a player in 3.5. He likes 4E too, but gets a different kick from 3.5 .