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Just saw the Nick Cage film Knowing. Some little girl puts a sheet of numbers in a time capsule. Fine. Kid winds up with them fifty years later. Fine. They are {Event date/number dead/gps co-ordinates}. Shit Happens - some times we see it comming. Kids rescued by Angelic Aliens in UFO while all life on earth cooks to death thanks to the 100 Tesla Solar Flare. WTF were you Idiots thinking?
This is indicative of massive psychological injury as a consequence of the way civilization has been going. The Japanese altered their civilization to cope with the horror of total ahnihilation of two cities by Nuclear Weapon. I strongly Suggest the entire US population seek that cultural shift to bring you back from the insanity and despair of being wrong and paying for it in blood.
I can only recommend a total ban on US cultural exports until you people come back from crazy land.
I'm going to have to go see Dragonball just to get the taste of ick out of my mouth.
There's a skill to discerning the sh!tty American movies from the good ones. Cage seems to do a lot of bizarre and/or mediocre films. [See also: 9mm and Ghostrider.]
What exactly are you suggesting that Americans do to "cope" with nihilism?
Creative Director
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I actually thought "Knowing" was a really interesting, well-made, and thought-provoking movie. One of the better movies of the year so far. I wouldn't really call it nihilistic at all...
For good examples of nihilistic movies, you should check out some of the horror movies that France has been doing lately. Some great movies (like "Frontier(s)"), some mediocre (like "High Tension"), and some quite bad (like "Inside"). Or then there's Australia's "Wolf Creek."
AKA: The USA hardly has the market cornered on nihilism.
Also AKA: Nihilism isn't inherently a poor movie theme. A movie with a nihilistic message is just as likely to be great or terrible as any other movie, I think; it's all in the skill of the movie's creators.
There's a skill to discerning the sh!tty American movies from the good ones. Cage seems to do a lot of bizarre and/or mediocre films. [See also: 9mm and Ghostrider.]
What exactly are you suggesting that Americans do to "cope" with nihilism?
American culture has been sliding towards "nihilism" since the release of Star Wars: The Phantom Menace"
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There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this, and coming from the Dingo that isn't very surprising. It is also worth pointing out that the plot as described is not a million miles away from the plot of Childhood's End (or even 2001) by Arthur C Clark but I wouldn't describe them as being nihilistic at all. End of the world movies are far from new - usually the end of the world is averted, but it actually happening is an interesting change of pace (though, again, the plot as described is not a million miles away from When Worlds Collide or The Day the Earth Caught Fire, both from the 1950s).
As for Japan, movies and nihilism, has anyone seen Ran by Kurosawa - everyone dies or winds up miserable, and there is no god to offer redemption. Cheery? Hardly. And what is it based on? King Lear. So nihilism seems to have been around for much longer than America.
Finally, I might have been thinking about seeing this movie - some spoilers and warning thereof might be nice in future.
There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this, and coming from the Dingo that isn't very surprising. It is also worth pointing out that the plot as described is not a million miles away from the plot of Childhood's End (or even 2001) by Arthur C Clark but I wouldn't describe them as being nihilistic at all. End of the world movies are far from new - usually the end of the world is averted, but it actually happening is an interesting change of pace (though, again, the plot as described is not a million miles away from When Worlds Collide, from the 1950s).
As for Japan, movies and nihilism, has anyone seen Ran by Kurosawa - everyone dies or winds up miserable, and there is no god to offer redemption. Cheery? Hardly. And what is it based on? King Lear. So nihilism seems to have been around for much longer than America.
Actually, aren't all of William Shakespear's tragedies like this? For that matter, didn't the Ancient Greeks invent theatrical tragedy? (And did I mispell "Shakespeare"?)
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Yes, they are all pretty much like that. And you are right about the Greeks, though to some extent their tragedies are more about punishment for hubris and sin (like Oedipus Rex, where the titular protagonist is punished for sleeping, albeit unwittingly, with his mother). And there is an "e" at the end of Shakespeare. :-)
And yeah, the Phantom Menace made me feel pretty nihilistic.
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Spelling only became codified a couple of hundred years ago, so you were pretty free to spell things the way you liked, including your own name. The "official" modern spelling is with the "e", though I don't know where it comes from and how it became official.
True enough. That was done to make English as complex and nonsensical as possible so that we could look down on foreigners who couldn't spell or pronounce it properly. ;-)
Yes, they are all pretty much like that. And there is an "e" at the end of Shakespeare. :-)Sometimes. He spelled his own name so many different ways that pretty much anything that looks vaguely right was probably used at some point.
You know, this does make me think that we all should ...
The girls today in society go for classical poetry
So to win their hearts one must quote with ease
Aeschylus and Euripides
One must know Homer, and believe me, Beau
Sophocles, also Sappho-ho
Unless you know Shelley and Keats and Pope
Dainty Debbies will call you a dope
But the poet of them all
Who will start 'em simply ravin'
Is the poet people call
The Bard of Stratford on Avon
{Refrain}
----
Brush up your Shakespeare
Start quoting him now
Brush up your Shakespeare
And the women you will wow
----
Just declaim a few lines from Othella
And they'll think you're a hell of a fella
If your blonde won't respond when you flatter 'er
Tell her what Tony told Cleopatterer
If she fights when her clothes you are mussing
What are clothes? Much ado about nussing
Brush up your Shakespeare
And they'll all kow-tow
{Refrain}
With the wife of the British ambessida
Try a crack out of Troilus and Cressida
If she says she won't buy it or tike it
Make her tike it, what's more As You Like It
If she says your behavior is heinous
Kick her right in the Coriolanus
Brush up your Shakespeare
And they'll all kow-tow
{Refrain}
If you can't be a ham and do Hamlet
They will not give a damn or a damlet
Just recite an occasional sonnet
And your lap'll have honey upon it
When your baby is pleading for pleasure
Let her sample your Measure for Measure
Brush up your Shakespeare
And they'll all kow-tow - Forsooth
And they'll all kow-tow - I' faith
And they'll all kow-tow
{Refrain}
Better mention "The Merchant Of Venice"
When her sweet pound o' flesh you would menace
If her virtue, at first, she defends---well
Just remind her that "All's Well That Ends Well"
And if still she won't give you a bonus
You know what Venus got from Adonis
Brush up your Shakespeare
And they'll all kow-tow - Thinkst thou?
And they'll all kow-tow - Odds bodkins
And they'll all kow-tow
{Refrain}
If your goil is a Washington Heights dream
Treat the kid to "A Midsummer Night's Dream"
If she then wants an all-by-herself night
Let her rest ev'ry 'leventh or "Twelfth Night"
If because of your heat she gets huffy
Simply play on and "Lay on, Macduffy!"
Brush up your Shakespeare
And they'll all kow-tow - Forsooth
And they'll all kow-tow - Thinkst thou?
And they'll all kow-tow - We trou'
And they'll all kow-tow
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Spelling only became codified a couple of hundred years ago, so you were pretty free to spell things the way you liked, including your own name. The "official" modern spelling is with the "e", though I don't know where it comes from and how it became official.True enough. That was done to make English as complex and nonsensical as possible so that we could look down on foreigners who couldn't spell or pronounce it properly. ;-)
Of course. And then, damn me, if those pesky yanks didn't go and rationalise it so it was easier to spell. Armor v armour. Maneuver v manoeuvre. Feces v faeces. They just don't understand.
I can only recommend a total ban on US cultural exports until you people come back from crazy land.I'm going to have to go see Dragonball just to get the taste of ick out of my mouth.
Can I say Mad Max, On the Beach, Ned Kelly, Gallipoli, The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith, Bliss, Romper Stomper, The Proposition, Breaker Morant.
Some serious nihilism going on there...
Note if you are looking for good non American movies please watch these (Except for Bliss).
My one trip to the US admittedly it was to California and Nevada but it showed me that the country was more than just Hollywood.
I loved San Diego and San Francisco
There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this, and coming from the Dingo that isn't very surprising.
So all left wing people are anti American or do right wing people never have anti American rants?
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Yes, they are all pretty much like that. And there is an "e" at the end of Shakespeare. :-)
Sometimes. He spelled his own name so many different ways that pretty much anything that looks vaguely right was probably used at some point.
That's evidence that his tragedies were ghost-written by aliens, possessing his body, to prepare the world for a nihilistic outlook, that would cause Nicolas Cage to make a movie preparing humanity to submit to their new starfaring overlords.
There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this...
How accurate of you to lump 'left-wing' and 'anti-American' together.
There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this...How accurate of you to lump 'left-wing' and 'anti-American' together.
Yet it's the Republican Demagogues of Texas who are throwing the idea of secession into the face of the democratically elected government- that's probably about as Anti-American as one can get.
How accurate of you to lump 'left-wing' and 'anti-American' together.
What ? You can't be american and left wing ?
How accurate of you to lump 'left-wing' and 'anti-American' together.What ? You can't be american and left wing ?
No!
<Grumbles>
Do people actually call themselves "left-wing" and "right-wing?" Do any of us actually believe there is a sinister conspiracy of either side to destroy America? The practice of blaming our problems on one side or the other seems trivial to me, seeing how the majority of both Republican and Democratic politicians are corrupt.
It's not that I think we've grown nihilistic. I think Americans are simply tired of the partisan politics that has dominated the United States for so long, and it is starting to carry over into mainstream media. Hollywood will always continue to do their own thing, contrary to how the majority of Americans view. Being famous and wealthy tends to fuel a certain breed of arrogance in individuals.
Me personally, I blame emo... :P
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I actually thought "Knowing" was a really interesting, well-made, and thought-provoking movie. One of the better movies of the year so far. I wouldn't really call it nihilistic at all...
Perhaps not the best of the year for me, but it certainly went off the tracks of happily ever after. I always like that. I like that in my books too....heheh.
There was one thing that was anti-bible. The aliens rising to the ship was complete angel form. It spat like the naive "monkey-in-the-bush" that got it wrong theory. Aliens must have seemed like angels to those stupid beasts.
I am not in love or in hate of this film. It was entertaining and it had the doom I love to see play out.
Recommended to next round!
"These guys were Nazis, Walter?"
"They were threatening castration! Are we gonna split hairs here?"
"Well, I.."
"Am I wrong?"
"No, Walter, these guys weren't Nazis they were Nihilists. They kept saying they believe in nothing."
"Nihilists. F$$% me. I mean, say what you will about the tenets of national socialism, at least it's an ethos. And let's not forget that keeping... amphibious rodents for domestic purposes... in the city... that ain't legal, either."
Michael Adams (a pollster who writes books analyzing what his polls tell him) has written a couple of books about the evolution of American culture. He does it from a Canadian perspective, contrasting you guys with us, but there's some still interesting insights in them.
Check out "Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values"
http://www.quasar.ualberta.ca/css/Css_39_2/BRNeidhardt_fire_ice.htm
Edit, and I still can't remember how to get links to work :)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Michael Adams (a pollster who writes books analyzing what his polls tell him) has written a couple of books about the evolution of American culture. He does it from a Canadian perspective, contrasting you guys with us, but there's some still interesting insights in them.
Check out "Fire and Ice: The United States, Canada and the Myth of Converging Values"
http://www.quasar.ualberta.ca/css/Css_39_2/BRNeidhardt_fire_ice.htm
Edit, and I still can't remember how to get links to work :)
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There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this...How accurate of you to lump 'left-wing' and 'anti-American' together.
Outside America, pretty accurate. I don't know how many of you querying the conflation of left-wing and anti-American are American (since George W, putting the two together is quite normal outside the US) and so not very au fait with non-American political views. Arguably that is changing a bit under the present administration, or at least until it inevitably disappoints. Dingo isn't American, and neither am I, so putting the two together is not very abnormal. That said, the "left-wing, anti-American" comment was more about Dingo's politics specifically (which he has expressed here on a few occasions). Moreover, anti-American and left-wing are not necessarily the same, nor do I suggest they are, though they are frequent bedfellows. However, it is possible to have a right-wing anti-American rant - Obama's increasing genuflection to protectionism and regulation, for example - but I can't get excited.
And you guys (i.e. Americans, especially those who might think they are left wing) probably don't even really know what really left-wing is - socialism never got anywhere in the US. If the Democrats are the most left-wing mainstream party, you really don't get the Left. Trust me.
My main problem with this film is similar to my problem with other "outsider contact" films.
Actually if it was angels, I'd be willing to overlook this more because:
1) angels would be more concerned with the kingdom of heaven, thus just because people died, it would not be seen as tragic by them as those people just moved to the outer planes.
2) angels would be less concerned about technology because again they care less about the material existance. Their main concern would be the products of God were not lost.
But aliens? Sorry, by not trying to save more people, when they actually had the chance (say if they had started 50 years ago), instead of this b.s. noah's ark/garden of eden crap, just makes me question how a race could be so evolved and yet so lacking in morality.
And you guys (i.e. Americans, especially those who might think they are left wing) probably don't even really know what really left-wing is - socialism never got anywhere in the US. If the Democrats are the most left-wing mainstream party, you really don't get the Left. Trust me.
Yeh you could have had evil things like Health Care for everybody, an adequate social safety net, regulated banks that didn’t send your country into a recession -
Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, *evil* Socialism And here in Castle Anthrax, we have but one punishment for setting alight the grail-shaped beacon: You must tie her down on a bed, and *spank* her.
:-)
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Yes, they are all pretty much like that. And you are right about the Greeks, though to some extent their tragedies are more about punishment for hubris and sin (like Oedipus Rex, where the titular protagonist is punished for sleeping, albeit unwittingly, with his mother). And there is an "e" at the end of Shakespeare. :-)
And yeah, the Phantom Menace made me feel pretty nihilistic.
Phyntym Mynycy pyt my yf my styw tyy. Byt Yybryy thy mylfyrmyd, Y myst ygryy wyth whyt yyy syy...
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There is a strong whiff of anti-American left-wing rant to this, and coming from the Dingo that isn't very surprising. It is also worth pointing out that the plot as described is not a million miles away from the plot of Childhood's End (or even 2001) by Arthur C Clark but I wouldn't describe them as being nihilistic at all. End of the world movies are far from new - usually the end of the world is averted, but it actually happening is an interesting change of pace (though, again, the plot as described is not a million miles away from When Worlds Collide or The Day the Earth Caught Fire, both from the 1950s).
As for Japan, movies and nihilism, has anyone seen Ran by Kurosawa - everyone dies or winds up miserable, and there is no god to offer redemption. Cheery? Hardly. And what is it based on? King Lear. So nihilism seems to have been around for much longer than America.
Finally, I might have been thinking about seeing this movie - some spoilers and warning thereof might be nice in future.
nihilism is a self inflicted psychosis purely because we are never willing to admit we were wrong...I loved R.A.N.. I loved King Lear. "Knowing" is distinct in its vileness: It condoned the idea that no matter how wrong you are. No matter how much destruction you unleash, God will come and rescue you and the other "chosen few" from the wreck of worlds...and those who dont think like you will be abandoned to ahnihilation.
PS If I want to save the earth from a 100 Tesla Solar Flare, I put a black hole in the edge of the Solar corona and that give me a thousand years to evacuate, rather than zero.
Frankly the film would have been more realistic if they had said the solar flare was caused by the presence of the Aliens...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Phyntym Mynycy pyt my yf my styw tyy. Byt Yybryy thy mylfyrmyd, Y myst ygryy wyth whyt yyy syy...Yes, they are all pretty much like that. And you are right about the Greeks, though to some extent their tragedies are more about punishment for hubris and sin (like Oedipus Rex, where the titular protagonist is punished for sleeping, albeit unwittingly, with his mother). And there is an "e" at the end of Shakespeare. :-)
And yeah, the Phantom Menace made me feel pretty nihilistic.
Phantom Menace put me if me stew tie. But Aubrey the Malformed, I must agree with what you say.
Best I could do.
Vowels are still important in English.
nihilism is a self inflicted psychosis purely because we are never willing to admit we were wrong...
It takes about 200 years for western European cultures to start to admit that sometimes they are the bad guys. You know steeling peoples land, resources, children, committing genocide, imposing segregation, partition, denying citizenship to indigenous people (Even when they fight in two world wars for you).
After inflicting all the worst aspects of civilization on the (us) poor bastards they complain that we are lazy, drunks, violent, vindictive, aggressive, directionless.
If we are lucky really lucky we get an occasional sorry about that.
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nihilism is a self inflicted psychosis purely because we are never willing to admit we were wrong...It takes about 200 years for western European cultures to start to admit that sometimes they are the bad guys. You know steeling peoples land, resources, children, committing genocide, imposing segregation, partition, denying citizenship to indigenous people (Even when they fight in two world wars for you).
After inflicting all the worst aspects of civilization on the (us) poor bastards they complain that we are lazy, drunks, violent, vindictive, aggressive, directionless.
If we are lucky really lucky we get an occasional sorry about that.
Actually we started keeping score...thats what made genocide fun.
"No, Walter, these guys weren't Nazis they were Nihilists. They kept saying they believe in nothing."
Ninja'd by the Keegster!
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How do you measure a rise in Nihilism? It would be increasingly apparent that creativity is in decline. So the Film industry would increasingly resort to remakes.
Do you know what nihilism is, really? It is the belief that nothing matters, nothing has meaning, and nothing you do or say has any impact on anything. I think you're mistaking it for laziness and ennui, frankly, which I will not argue against, but nihilism is a very well defined philosophy, and it does not describe the philosophy of the average American at all. If anything, we are too far in the other direction, thinking we CAN make an impact and make things better, we can make the world a better place, although we are quite misguided in how much we can really do there, I think.
If anything, the average American is too idealistic and definitely naive. Read your Camus, Turgenev, Baudrillard, Kierkegaard, and your Kant, and you'll see where I'm coming from.
So...how to determine the relationship between "nihilistic" and "crappy"...
As an American, this thread, and all in it, are dead to me.
Now excuse me while go read No Exit. I need to get into character for my Wraith campaign with Flea, Peter Stormare and Lou Diamond Phillips (Torsten Voges was unavailable.)
How do you measure a rise in Nihilism? It would be increasingly apparent that creativity is in decline. So the Film industry would increasingly resort to remakes.
"Creativity" is not in decline so much as "Courage" is in decline.
What is happening in Hollywood is that the "bean-counters" are becoming increasingly afraid of taking risks. So they keep trying what has "already worked" rather then take a chance on something new.
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Actually, american culture is so filled with everything it looks like it'd have a meltdown. Some american productions are filled with superfluous content, while others are extremely artistic. Some are the product of fear, still others are brought up from a no-brainer-money-maker concept and there are geniuses at work everywhere too.
It's a country where Richard Dawkins gets invited to an Atheist Convention, yet, the same nation has the "Teach the controversy" campaign going on with other segment of the population, simultaneously. The country that used the atomic bomb against another human beings is the same country that fathered the hippies. You just can't make such a big assumption as saying they're becoming nihilist.
Violence is ubiquitous and accepted in mass media, yet, unapproved by some others; sex is sought and watched morbidly by a part of the population, another part shuns it, yet others try to stay in a more neutral ground...
More than nihilistic, then, I'd say you were aiming for the concept "hard to impress". Americans have seen so much, it's difficult to make them become genuinely excited or fascinated, for little seems new these days.
I'd like to rant a bit more, but my neighbors are having a party and I can't listen to my own thoughts right now... too loud...
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And you guys (i.e. Americans, especially those who might think they are left wing) probably don't even really know what really left-wing is - socialism never got anywhere in the US. If the Democrats are the most left-wing mainstream party, you really don't get the Left. Trust me.
Yeh you could have had evil things like Health Care for everybody, an adequate social safety net, regulated banks that didn’t send your country into a recession -
Oh, wicked, bad, naughty, *evil* Socialism And here in Castle Anthrax, we have but one punishment for setting alight the grail-shaped beacon: You must tie her down on a bed, and *spank* her.
:-)
Absolutely - what is "left" and "right" is fairly culturally specific. In the UK we have the NHS (National Health Service) - to not have universal healthcare to me, as a right-wing UK person, sounds utterly barbaric, as a few of the tales in the "Things that suck" thread make clear. Yet the US has a "left-wing" president who is, at best, going to maybe tinker with the insurance scheme a little bit. And the French, nominally right-wing president, is probably more "left-wing" than all of us, due to the very serious role of the state in the French economy.
That said, I do think that the ideas of "left" and "right" are gaining, in broader terms, more currency than they did back in the day when everyone was making money and it seemed that market forces were the be-all and end-all. There has been a lot of discussion about the role of the state in economic activity lately and this recession will likely change that balance for the next generation.
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Aubrey, if we did it German style, and eliminated corporate taxes, I would have no problem with it. The problem in America, is they add without subtracting. We pay taxes on just about everything here, except for food, and, basically, we work five to six months of the year just to cover our taxes. The other problem we have here is out of control bureaucracy. Our government is notoriously inefficient, and tax revenues are squandered to the point that, let's use welfare as an example, maybe ten cents on the dollar make it to the people receiving the help. Education, likewise, is terribly wasteful. Private schools pay their teachers more, educate their kids better and spend almost half as much per pupil as public schools here. In most things in life, more money per unit means better quality, in our government, it means much less quality.
This is why I do not trust our government with health care. If they waste money with the same skill they waste it on everything else, health care will be a bloated, bureaucratic, wasteful mess. It isn't that I think (or a lot of Americans think) that universal coverage is a bad idea, I just don't trust the criminals in Washington to do it right, and I'm tired of throwing good money after bad.
If we had accountability in our government, I'd be open to a lot of suggestions, but as it stands, no way, no how.
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Aubrey, if we did it German style, and eliminated corporate taxes, I would have no problem with it. The problem in America, is they add without subtracting. We pay taxes on just about everything here, except for food, and, basically, we work five to six months of the year just to cover our taxes. The other problem we have here is out of control bureaucracy. Our government is notoriously inefficient, and tax revenues are squandered to the point that, let's use welfare as an example, maybe ten cents on the dollar make it to the people receiving the help. Education, likewise, is terribly wasteful. Private schools pay their teachers more, educate their kids better and spend almost half as much per pupil as public schools here. In most things in life, more money per unit means better quality, in our government, it means much less quality.
This is why I do not trust our government with health care. If they waste money with the same skill they waste it on everything else, health care will be a bloated, bureaucratic, wasteful mess. It isn't that I think (or a lot of Americans think) that universal coverage is a bad idea, I just don't trust the criminals in Washington to do it right, and I'm tired of throwing good money after bad.
If we had accountability in our government, I'd be open to a lot of suggestions, but as it stands, no way, no how.
I don't think there is a genuinely good system of universal health care that doesn't cause problems of some sort or another. In Germany, for example, there are (or were) loads of unemployed doctors. The UK NHS is very inefficient and quality is patchy. The only thing worse than universal healthcare is its alternative.
A lot of the problem in state provision seems to be lack of choice - the state is a monolithic provider and you have no choice (except, maybe, to expensively opt into the private system). When a provider is in a monopolistic situation, provision of service is usually expensive (for what you get), inefficient and poor.
But the US private insurance system is horrifically expensive (in no small part due to the US legal system where the threat of being sued, and the expense and time wasted in defending oneself, ups the risk to doctors and insurers and so makes the whole process very expensive) and can act as a bar to economic efficiency (were workers cling to jobs they dislike, instead of moving on and allowing movement of labour, because they fear losing insurance provided to their employers; or where otherwise active members of society eremain long-term sick because they cannot get treatment due to a lack of insurance).
National, state-run insurance-based systems seem to work a bit better than either the US or UK systems (one extremely capitalist, one virtually Stalinist) but there are still problems because, ultimately, you are distorting economic priorities. But like I say, it's better (in my view) to have universal healthcare than not.