The changes to polymorph (and, by extension, wildshape) went too far. Sure, it was powerful before, but since you don't get size bonuses to ability scores (it's all enhancement, which won't stack with spells like bull's strength and items like belts of strength), the cleric is now the class with the best "wildshape" like ability (righteous might inexplicably still grants you size bonuses).
The best solution is to introduce size bonuses into the equation, but I'm not quite sure how. Should they be in addition to what polymorph spells do, or should the existing bonuses be split.
I had the idea of changing the way those spells work: you don't get to change to a specific size and gain enhancement bonuses. No, you get to change your size by a number of steps (beast shape I: one step down and so on), with each step giving you size bonuses (maybe a flat +2 str per category, or you could have a table) and then you might get enhancement bonuses on top of that.)
So the size bonuses depend on your actual size change (which does depend on what spell you use, but you can still use beast shape XXVII to turn into a small animal), while the enhancement bonuses depends on the spell (even if you use beast shape MCM to just turn into a critter one step above you, you'll still get better enhancement bonuses than the guy who uses best shape III to turn into a critter two steps above)
Just to clarify, when in "Beast Shape" do you gain the base AC of the creature and then add the bonuses granted via the appropriate Beast Shape spell? and do you gain the base attacks also?
Wow. Nice GMs.
My advice: Just alter wildshape and don't tell them. They obviously don't care either way, so why should your enjoyment of the game suffer from their ignorance.
No matter how much you like druids, it sounds like utter suicide to play a druid in this campaign.
Your DM, in your own words, hates druids. Further, he seems inflexible in his willingness to do nothing to make them playable.
So, essentially, you would be playing an under-powered (IMO broken) class with a big bullseye on your chest saying "Hey, DM, you hate me - I bet you can't find a monster capable of eating me!"
And, just from your brief comments, my best guess is you're playing with the kind of DM who would rise to that challenge.
I may be wrong.
But sounds like suicide.
Here's a well made Druid that's in our 20th level playtest.
He doesn't have nearly the gold you have, so obviously with 4 more levels, you could make him much more interesting...
Just to clarify, when in "Beast Shape" do you gain the base AC of the creature and then add the bonuses granted via the appropriate Beast Shape spell? and do you gain the base attacks also?
No, you only gain the bonuses from the spell. It's quite limited. Read in the Magic chapter about polymorph spells, under Transmutation.
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I personally think Druids get enough toys to play with, without Wild Shape, to be quite effective. You've already said that trying to outmatch the Fighter for melee is pointless - so why consider your wild shaping anything more than utility?
You do lose quite a bit with no access to the epic wildshape feats, or epic spellcasting feats (I'm presuming here - if you do have those, you've a lot of options). You also do have Shapechange remember.
You can certainly go the summoner route, with augment summoning and all.
Take Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus (Evocation) and pick up a greater rod of metamagic maximize and go to town with firestorms. Change your spells up often to keep your DM guessing. Pearls of power are also your friend (pray for a wide variety of spells, and keep using them). Use the Domain option instead of Animal Companion.
As for what next class to take? Without Heirophant I can't really think of much that combines well - your fellows are in about the same boat anyhow. How about Assassin? (wait, Good only, right). Perhaps Duelist (claws are light piercing/slashing weapons right?)
If you're wanting to fill a support niche, don't worry about needing to dominate any aspect too much.
a lot of stuff about changing size via wildshape
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. You ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
So no stat bonuses, but the other size mods apply.
For example:
let's take a lvl 6 human druid (Str, Dex and Con all 14) with a roughly average 46 hp (8+(40/2)+12+6)(First level+(Max HP for next 5 lvls/2)+Con+Preferred Class Bonus) taking the same shape.
First we take the ability score bonuses from the spell of +4 Str and -2 Dex. Then we DON'T factor in the ability score bonuses from going up to a Large creature from Medium of +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to a meagre 18 Str and 14 Con, while dropping Dex to 12. He also loses -2 from his attack modifier (which offsets the +2 he gains for his bonus STR) and takes -2 to his AC for size and -1 to his AC for reduced DEX, but gains +4 AC from the spell, so gains a whole +1 AC (but he cannot wear armor, unless he has magical armor that works in wildshape forms). His CMB goes up by 2, and his Stealth skill drops by 2.
Net effect (assuming he was wearing simple leather armor):
He gains +2 CMB, and +2 damage
He loses -1 AC, -1 REF save, -1 Initiative, -2 Stealth
He breaks even on HP, Fort Save, etc.
So, basically, he's a weak fighter (druid with poor melee stats - 14 isn't poor, but it's poor for a fighter) in a foam rubber bear suit. His AC sucks (12 + his reduced DEX modifier). His HP are that of a druid, his attacks are weak (Druid BAB and no enhancement for the Wildshape), his damage is mediocre (bear damage with weak druid STR and a minor benefit from the Wildshape). He is slower and easier to kill with fireballs (etc.) and less sneaky.
And this is a core, defining class feature of the druid.
Wildshape used to be overpowered, but now it's a joke.
Here's a post of mine in the druid playtest forum (now closed).
So no stat bonuses, but the other size mods apply.
And this is a core, defining class feature of the druid.
Wildshape used to be overpowered, but now it's a joke.
Here's a in the druid playtest forum (now closed).
I agree, having enjoyed concept shapshifter Druids in the past of all variants. My thoughts are that, if you can’t use Spells or Equipment to Enhance your Wildshape due to “Enhancement Bonus” conflicts, you should at least get the SIZE bonus added in or vice-versa. Equipment aside, some of the Druid's coolest spells are the Enhancement spells...Bull's, Bear's, Cat's... and the current situation just makes them useless to the WildShaper.
The only way I could see justifying the current Wildshape rules would be to see that all the animals in the Monster Manual be reduced in stats accordingly,particularly STR & DEX. So turning into an animal during mating season wouldn't lead to a potentially embarrassing Druid rape scene. As most of the LARGE animals readily whoop a strong Half-Orc Druid's STR by 8-10 points... HELLO CMB GRAPPLE SURPRISE ROUND!
My DM and I were discussing it and came to the conclusion that we probably would just rather see the WildShape become a "tree choice" within the Druid class, like Ranger has Bow vs. Two-Weapon. The Druid would then have 3 choices being WildShaper, Animal Companion or Pure Caster(aka Elementalist). Not to mention add a ton of flavor to the Druid like Bloodlines have done for Sorcerers.
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DM_Blake... As for the previously now closed post, I wouldn't have chosen an Elephant with BeastShape III, but instead a Tiger for the "Charge -> Pounce & Rake". (Rake opens with BSIII.) I would probably use something like an Elephant for its Trample on smaller high-quantity minions. But I that's probably just personal preference since the Fighter would still likely wreck you in under 5 rounds anyway, you'd just have a slightly better damage output.
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If I would play a druid I would take a half-orc for the added STR and WIS, and take a light or heavy horse animal companion, take the whole Mounted Combat feat tree, and fully min/max the fact that when I activate wild shape, I'm just getting uglier and no longer changing into a tiger, which won't affect my horseriding skill in the slightest!
:P
So far the only thing our group did to help rescue the tragic druid class is make their level 1 decision not a decision any more. Our druids get a companion and 1 cleric domain.
That gives them an at-will laser beam like all the other pure casters get, so they don't have to resort to firing sling bullets or at-will daze spells in combat.
The extra power will be really noticeable at low levels, but by level 5 or so, the beauty of at-will laser beams will fade into a weak attack that doesn't accomplish much.
By then, our druid will be experimenting with wildshape, and getting practically no combat benefit from it, so I will be helping her to find tactical uses for it, like becoming a hummingbird and floating 30' over a battlefield zotting enemies with her laser beam.
I'm sure she will at least have fun with wildshape, playing around with it, even if it has become worthless as a combat tactic in its own right.
I am guessing that by the time she's reaching double-digits in level, we're going to really feel like we're dragging along a sorry NPC expert rather than a real class.
Oh well, we haven't gotten that far yet, so it remains to be seen.
I agree with what has already been said on this thread, that getting the full spread of size modifiers would go a long way to restoring druids as a worthy adventuring class without overpowering them.
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- thus far, my mentioning to the primary-DM 'Have you looked at wild shape in PF at all?' essentially got me a 'No, and I have no intentions of doing so. Get over it.'{<- cleaning up the language used *alot*).
Have they explained what their objection is?
IE: is it based on a previous campaign being derailed by D&D3.5 style wild-shaping?
Or is it that they dislike the concept of wild-shaping at all? (eg; 'Druids don't fit my idea of fantasy')
While I can't say I've sat down to do a detailed comparison between old and new rules, if a player was really interested in playing a certain class, I'd make the effort to check out the main differences of its iconic ability.
No stat bonuses, but the other size mods apply.
For example:
let's take a lvl 6 human druid (Str, Dex and Con all 14) ...
First we take the ability score bonuses from the spell of +4 Str and -2 Dex. This brings the human druid up to 18 Str, while dropping Dex to 12. He also loses -1 from his attack modifier and takes -1 to his AC for size and -1 to his AC for reduced DEX, but gains +4 natural armor from the spell (note, this is not an enhancement bonus to natural armor, so it stacks with Barkskin), so gains +2 AC (but he cannot wear armor, unless he has magical armor that works in wildshape forms). His CMB goes up by 1, and his Stealth skill drops by 4.
Net effect (assuming he was wearing leather armor):
He gains +3 CMB, and +2 damage
He loses 0 AC, -1 REF save, -1 Initiative, -4 Stealth
Fixed/added the items in bold. Size modifier change from Medium to Large is 1 (+1 CMB, -1 AC), -4 for Stealth.
Also note, permanent items such as Rings of Protection, Amulets, belts, headbands, etc., all continue to work in wild shape form. Armor and Shield (and weapons and charged items) are about all that doesn't.
For the record D_R_024, I was not agreeing that Wild Shape is useless. I really don't know. I was merely saying if you found it useless for you, plenty else to enjoy - so I think you should stick to you guns and play it.