Using Paizo's half-orc as an example what do you think an Orc's stat adjustments would be? I had some before, but I have no idea where I saved them in my PC.
I had some before, but I have no idea where I saved them in my PC.
That would explain why you're in the wrong forum with this.
I'm not sure they will be changed. They've worked fine all this time, and half-orc stats need not reflect on full orcs, since the issue here is more about nurture than nature - whatever they inherit, it's what they need to have in order to survive childhood that contributes to their stats:
Half-orcs find it easier (i.e. possible) to survive among orcs if they're considered smart enough to be useful as leaders. Among humans, it's important that they have willpower and doesn't let himself be goaded into stuff that gets him killed.
Yeah, but they are not balanced, and the Orc is also LA 0 race.
They could do something about the LA, of course.
I do think that they will not adher to the standard races' pattern of +2 to a physical stat, +2 to a mental stat, -2 to one stat.
I doubt that they lose the +4 str. I also don't know whether they'd get a bonus in any physical stat.
They do get a net -2 instead of a +2, and have light blindness. Of course the +4 is big, but all in all, it could be balanced. It's a tricky thing.
They could do something about the LA, of course.
I do think that they will not adher to the standard races' pattern of +2 to a physical stat, +2 to a mental stat, -2 to one stat.
I doubt that they lose the +4 str. I also don't know whether they'd get a bonus in any physical stat.
They do get a net -2 instead of a +2, and have light blindness. Of course the +4 is big, but all in all, it could be balanced. It's a tricky thing.
As it stand I would take a half-orc over an orc, but I am not sure what to do to make the orc just as suitable. It might be easier to give it a con bonus or something else and bump it up to an LA +1.
As it stands I would take a half-orc over an orc, but I am not sure what to do to make the orc just as suitable. It might be easier to give it a con bonus or something else and bump it up to an LA +1.
It really depends on what you're looking for. A pure orc isn't much good except for a straight beating machine.(Barbarian/Fighter) Not saying thats all they CAN do, but the more any given class requires decent stats other than STR, they get a lot less impressive.(Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Cleric, Druid(other than wildshaper))
The pure orc out weighs the half-orc because STR as a stat has a GREATER impact on the current game of 3.X. Much like DEX had on 2E covering a multitude of game mechanics, most of which were combat-oriented... initiative, speed, AC, etc.
Having seen a pure orc Monk and pure orc Barbarian(players) in action now. I would probably say just give them a +1 LA and call it good. All the racial abilities aside, that +4 STR at 1st level is underrated quite a bit, same goes for Catfolk and their +4 DEX, IMO.
As it stands I would take a half-orc over an orc, but I am not sure what to do to make the orc just as suitable. It might be easier to give it a con bonus or something else and bump it up to an LA +1.It really depends on what you're looking for. A pure orc isn't much good except for a straight beating machine.(Barbarian/Fighter) Not saying thats all they CAN do, but the more any given class requires decent stats other than STR, they get a lot less impressive.(Paladin, Ranger, Monk, Cleric, Druid(other than wildshaper))
The pure orc out weighs the half-orc because STR as a stat has a GREATER impact on the current game of 3.X. Much like DEX had on 2E covering a multitude of game mechanics, most of which were combat-oriented... initiative, speed, AC, etc.
Having seen a pure orc Monk and pure orc Barbarian(players) in action now. I would probably say just give them a +1 LA and call it good. All the racial abilities aside, that +4 STR at 1st level is underrated quite a bit, same goes for Catfolk and their +4 DEX, IMO.
The half-orc(Paizo)gets bonuses to strength and wisdom, making it ideal as a battle-cleric or shaman(role not class). I don't wamt to get rid of the -intelligence because the primitive savage orc is a creature that has its place in D&D. They are smarter than ogres, but not as smart as the average person. I may have to give up making mechanics match the fluff.
I got the Orc stats from classic Monsters revisited.
Str +6,
con +2,
Int -2,
Wis -2
cha -4
These are of course in addition to darkvision and anything else they get. Does that make them a valid +1 for LA?
If they don't go too far from this all the orc has is the + 4 Str - 2 Int - 2 Wis - 2 Cha...
Even if they boost the str and con while giving another -2 to Cha they are still only drawing even on stats, and all they get is darkvision. To go with that darkvision they have light sensitivity which gives them a -1 to attack, spot and search checks.
Yeah the STR is nice but they get nothing else. No stability, no pack mule trait, no save bonuses, no weapon proficiencies, nothing. Heck they don't even get half elf bonuses (what few those are).
I got the Orc stats from classic Monsters revisited.
Str +6,
con +2,
Int -2,
Wis -2
cha -4These are of course in addition to darkvision and anything else they get. Does that make them a valid +1 for LA?
Those are the same stats as in the SRD. Because it was meant as a quick monster entry, they left out "The orc warrior presented here had the following ability scores before racial adjustments: Str 13, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 9, Cha 8."
They don't change the stats in Chronicles, since Chronicles is still in 3.5e mode.
Oh, and it should be Wis -4 above, as that guy has Wis 7.
Oh, and it should be Wis -4 above, as that guy has Wis 7.
Good catch. :)
Don't full orcs have some sort of light sensivity? That alone would sort of discourage anyone from playing one in any campaign I ran...
Don't full orcs have some sort of light sensivity? That alone would sort of discourage anyone from playing one in any campaign I ran...
Yes, however there is an item in the "Races of the Dragon" book that allows you to remove that penalty. I believe the name of the item is "Sundark Goggles" (aka Sunglasses) and they price at 25gp. Important to note, they take up your face slot. (Sorry I cannot provide the page number, I'm at work... working hard, honest!)
Kobolds and various other underground races also suffer the "Dazzled" penalty.
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Dazzled
The creature is unable to see well because of overstimulation of the eyes. A dazzled creature takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls, Search checks, and Spot checks.
Those goggles were in a lot of places before and since Races of Dragons.
Good to know! *hands Crimson Jester a cookie*
Orcs should also get Orc Ferocity. Seems silly for half-orcs to get that racial trait but not full-blooded orcs.
Yes, however there is an item in the "Races of the Dragon" book that allows you to remove that penalty. I believe the name of the item is "Sundark Goggles" (aka Sunglasses) and they price at 25gp.
If they're so cheap, why isn't Golarion/World of Greyhawk/FR/game world of your choice overrun with "cool" orcs? And does nobody else except me think it's (a) mechanically unsound and (b) totally setting-inappropriate to negate a race's weakness in that way?
Yes, however there is an item in the "Races of the Dragon" book that allows you to remove that penalty. I believe the name of the item is "Sundark Goggles" (aka Sunglasses) and they price at 25gp.If they're so cheap, why isn't Golarion/World of Greyhawk/FR/game world of your choice overrun with "cool" orcs? And does nobody else except me think it's (a) mechanically unsound and (b) totally setting-inappropriate to negate a race's weakness in that way?
Not when the race is already worse off then most the others between total stat minus no skill bonus and no bonus feats or racial abilities.. For the records orcs kinda suck as fighters.. You need to put a stat into wis so you have a will save.. If you want to go whirlwind you need to put a fifteen into int.. In a brightly lit area the orc has over the average human with the same gear and his +2 into strength
-1 feat
-2 skills
-1 will
+0 bab
+1 damage
Sure is worth an ECL adjustment alright
You need to put a stat into wis so you have a will save.. If you want to go whirlwind you need to put a fifteen into int.. In a brightly lit area the orc has over the average human with the same gear and his +2 into strength
-1 feat
-2 skills
-1 will
+0 bab
+1 damageSure is worth an ECL adjustment alright
What use are skill points, or looking good, to a fighter? I can see the will save (but that's about all), since if you're an orc fighter, you don't go for fancy stuff like whirlwind attack. You go power attack and overhand chop.
They're not as versatile, but they don't want to be versatile. They want to start with Str 20 (or more) They want to tear things to shred. They don't want to seduce women, either - they just abduct and rape them.
The night thing is kinda a drag, but you'll just attack by night and it turns into an advantage, because now you can see and they cannot.
Yes, however there is an item in the "Races of the Dragon" book that allows you to remove that penalty. I believe the name of the item is "Sundark Goggles" (aka Sunglasses) and they price at 25gp.If they're so cheap, why isn't Golarion/World of Greyhawk/FR/game world of your choice overrun with "cool" orcs? And does nobody else except me think it's (a) mechanically unsound and (b) totally setting-inappropriate to negate a race's weakness in that way?
I used them for a Kobold, I had enough problems to deal with without being penalized by bright light constantly. Besides what's not "cool" about a Kobold on his Low-rider with his dope shades on?
As for it being "mechanically unsound" and "setting-inappropriate", I don't have the answer for that, perhaps you should e-mail WotC and ask them, since it is straight out of their pages. Also note, IT IS a "SPLAT BOOK" the answer will likely be something you really don't want to hear. I'm guessing something similar to the answers explaining "Paladins of ANY alignment" and "How Duskblade isn't overpowered, but IS banned from Living Greyhawk".
What use are skill points, or looking good, to a fighter? I can see the will save (but that's about all), since if you're an orc fighter, you don't go for fancy stuff like whirlwind attack. You go power attack and overhand chop.
Yup, as I mentioned above... BEATING MACHINE!! Play a Half-Orc or Human if you want to be strong and still able to eat with utensils, that's not the pure Orc's lot in life.
And your battle cry must consist of 2 or less words, much like a Steven Segal movie can only have 3 or less words in the title.
Examples:
What use are skill points, or looking good, to a fighter? I can see the will save (but that's about all), since if you're an orc fighter, you don't go for fancy stuff like whirlwind attack. You go power attack and overhand chop.Yup, as I mentioned above... BEATING MACHINE!! Play a Half-Orc or Human if you want to be strong and still able to eat with utensils, that's not the pure Orc's lot in life.
And your battle cry must consist of 2 or less words, much like a Steven Segal movie can only have 3 or less words in the title.
Examples:
ORC SMASH!
ORC KILL!
YOU DIE!
ME SMASH!
ME KILL!
Smarter Orcs have some more
What use are skill points, or looking good, to a fighter? I can see the will save (but that's about all), since if you're an orc fighter, you don't go for fancy stuff like whirlwind attack. You go power attack and overhand chop.Yup, as I mentioned above... BEATING MACHINE!! Play a Half-Orc or Human if you want to be strong and still able to eat with utensils, that's not the pure Orc's lot in life.
And your battle cry must consist of 2 or less words, much like a Steven Segal movie can only have 3 or less words in the title.
Examples:
ORC SMASH!
ORC KILL!
YOU DIE!
ME SMASH!
ME KILL!
Smarter Orcs have some more
ME WILL SMASH YOU FACE!
ME WILL CRUSH YOU! CRUSH YOU TO GOO!
Lol. I eventually decided that an Orc's job is to smash things in the face really hard. They have half-orcs to be shamans(divine leaders) if they need one.
As it stand I would take a half-orc over an orc, but I am not sure what to do to make the orc just as suitable. It might be easier to give it a con bonus or something else and bump it up to an LA +1.
Have you noticed that Many Orc Tribes in Golarion are actively breeding (Half-Human) Half-Orcs. So appearently, not only would you take a Half-Orc over an Orc, so would many Orc Chieftens.
Actually, in the long run (from an evolutionary standpoint) this would lead to Half-Orc replacing Orcs as the primary species.
Lol. I eventually decided that an Orc's job is to smash things in the face really hard. They have half-orcs to be shamans(divine leaders) if they need one.
Oh no, no no no.
When in any society, ever, including today's modern, most politically-correct and racially tolerent societies, has a half-breed ever been readily accepted by any culture.
Now I'm not saying racism is right or good, and I'm not condoning it. In fact, I think I'm above the curve on embracing ethnic diversity.
But I can also recognize how the world works, and how it's always worked.
And I think orcs would be less culturally enlightened, and less open to racial diversity, than most races.
In other words, no way would a tribe of orcs look to a half-orc to lead them in any capacity. Half orcs in an orc tribe/village would be virtual "untouchables", just barely more socially acceptible than slaves.
Now, maybe some half-orc walks into Orcton one day and starts kicking serious orc butt. Might makes right. Eventually he's killed any orc dumb enough to question his musclebound authority, and he takes charge by force.
Other than that, I'm afraid the lot of half-orcs in Orcton would be sad and grim indeed.
And yes, that's all my own opinion, of course.
And yes, before anyone calls me to the carpet for this, I know this post is dripping with irony, racially profiling orcs and simultaneously proclaiming my own enlightenment - choc this one up to creative license in a fictional setting. The villain in my novel is a murderous misogynistic psychopath, but it doesn't make me one. And describing orc racial intolerance doesn't make me intolerant.
Nobody has mentioned it (unless I missed it), so it's either so obvious that nobody felt the need, or it's been overlooked.
But orcs should get racial proficiency with all "orc" weapons.
In other words, no way would a tribe of orcs look to a half-orc to lead them in any capacity. Half orcs in an orc tribe/village would be virtual "untouchables", just barely more socially acceptible than slaves.
Now, maybe some half-orc walks into Orcton one day and starts kicking serious orc butt. Might makes right. Eventually he's killed any orc dumb enough to question his musclebound authority, and he takes charge by force.
Don't forget the classic...
"Me Half-Orc make BIG FIRE from sky! I burn your hut!"Or the ever popular...
"Me Half-Orc control GREAT ANIMAL SPIRITS that eat BAD Orcs!"
And other ways to impress a savage species with magical powers. Where there's a will, there's a way! Whether or not you then get beat into a pulp resembling a wet prune for threatening something that could twist you into a pretzel, is left up to the Dice and the DM's kindness... if he has such things.
Lol. I eventually decided that an Orc's job is to smash things in the face really hard. They have half-orcs to be shamans(divine leaders) if they need one.Oh no, no no no.
When in any society, ever, including today's modern, most politically-correct and racially tolerent societies, has a half-breed ever been readily accepted by any culture.
Now I'm not saying racism is right or good, and I'm not condoning it. In fact, I think I'm above the curve on embracing ethnic diversity.
But I can also recognize how the world works, and how it's always worked.
And I think orcs would be less culturally enlightened, and less open to racial diversity, than most races.
In other words, no way would a tribe of orcs look to a half-orc to lead them in any capacity. Half orcs in an orc tribe/village would be virtual "untouchables", just barely more socially acceptible than slaves.
Now, maybe some half-orc walks into Orcton one day and starts kicking serious orc butt. Might makes right. Eventually he's killed any orc dumb enough to question his musclebound authority, and he takes charge by force.
Other than that, I'm afraid the lot of half-orcs in Orcton would be sad and grim indeed.
And yes, that's all my own opinion, of course.
And yes, before anyone calls me to the carpet for this, I know this post is dripping with irony, racially profiling orcs and simultaneously proclaiming my own enlightenment - choc this one up to creative license in a fictional setting. The villain in my novel is a murderous misogynistic psychopath, but it doesn't make me one. And describing orc racial intolerance doesn't make me intolerant.
I would normally go with this, but I normally game in Eberron where some of the monsters are more civilized. The monsters being more humane makes things different since goblins are not attacked on sight. My next adventure series may be non-campaign specific however.