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Does the use of Weapon Finesse trump the need for Agile Maneuvers? If my character only uses light weapons (or weapons that Weapon Finesse can be applied to), and only makes Combat Maneuvers that require an attack roll (such as Disarm), do I really need Agile Maneuvers?
This became a debate this weekend. Has anyone else had this come up? I eagerly await answers.
Does the use of Weapon Finesse trump the need for Agile Maneuvers? If my character only uses light weapons (or weapons that Weapon Finesse can be applied to), and only makes Combat Maneuvers that require an attack roll (such as Disarm), do I really need Agile Maneuvers?
This became a debate this weekend. Has anyone else had this come up? I eagerly await answers.
It really depends on the final wording, whether things like disarm actually use attack rolls (which would allow for enhancement bonuses, Weapon Focus, Weapon Finesse, and the like), or should more properly use "combat maneuver rolls." I greatly suspect that the language will be different in the final release version.
Regardless, the answer to your question is "it depends." Not only does Weapon Finesse only apply to attacks (and therefore only certain combat maneuvers), but Agile Maneuvers affects your CMB, which will affect the DC of enemies using combat maneuvers on you.
Woe to the disarming rogue who suddenly learns that he can be disarmed as well...
My bet is on one Feat for both usages (offensively),
with everyone automatically getting DEX benefit defensively, ala Maneuver AC.
The Beta is very vague, and Jason suggested people playtest it by whatever interpretation they wished when this was brought up earlier (the Feats are a side-effect, the issue is what Att/AC bonuses apply, though STACKING WFinesse & AManeuvers would seem ridiculous).
I say go with Maneuver AC if you want to play "Pathfinder" games before the Final is released.
Agile Maneuvers affects your CMB, which will affect the DC of enemies using combat maneuvers on you.So as worded, Agile Maneuvers applies to your CMB defense (aka the opposing CMB DC)? Was that it's only intention originally?
Agile Maneuvers allows you to use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier when calculating your CMB for all purposes, offensive and defensive.
CMB= BAB + Str + Special size modifier
with Agile Manuevers, that changes to
CMB= BAB+Dex+Special size modifier
The DC for any CMB against a target is 15 + target's CMB, no matter how you arrive at the target's CMB.
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Good summary by Brian here.
To answer your original question, "Does the use of Weapon Finesse trump the need for Agile Maneuvers?", the answer is no.
If you're doing a combat maneuver, you use your CMB bonus. Even if you're a high dex rogue with weapon finesse, you use your CMB bonus. This means your CMB bonus is crap unless you take Agile Maneuver.
If you're a high dex rogue, you should have both weapon finesse and agile maneuvre (if you plan to do damage and combat maneuvres). If you just plan to do damage, stick to Weapon Finesse only.
I actually like that Weapon Finesse and Agile Man. are separate: in one campaign I have a bard with a STR of 8, who can't deal damage for the life of him, so he uses Agile Maneuvre. When he uses a whip to disarm, he adds the +2 whip bonus, and another +1 due to the MW nature of the whip (combat maneuvres now fail on a 1 and are always a success on 20, which leads me to believe that when using a weapon as part of that combat maneuvre, like a disarm, you can use the weapon bonus).
Under PRPG rules, characters now have lots of feats, so I see no reason to unify weapon finesse and agile maneuvre. You couldn't in 3.5... why could you now? You shouldn't create an artificial buff to all DEX fighters because someone came up with a cool new feat that lets you add DEX instead of STR during combat maneuvres... Please remember that DEX fighters already benefit from a HIGH DEX, which affects their ranged attacks, AC, Initiative, Dex skills, Ref Save, etc. They shouldn't gain yet one more advantage over the regular high STR tanks out there...
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In 3.5, the Finesse feat allowed DEX-based fighting types to be good at both melee attacks AND most combat maneuvers.
With the PFRPG beta, they now have to take 2 feats (Finess and Agile Maneuvers) to get approximately the same result. It is an additional feat tax.
IMO, CMB should be based on the higher mod (STR or DEX).