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Forgive me if this question sound silly or newbiesh.
1 - With the claw attack, being a natural weapon can i apply weapon finesse?
2 - i get two attack per round using the claws. what happen when i reach the level where i get 2 attack normally? can i do the claw attack and then attack with something else or even claw again?
I had a look at the previous post about didnt find anything that could answer my questions.
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iForgive me if this question sound silly or newbiesh.
1 - With the claw attack, being a natural weapon can i apply weapon finesse?
2 - i get two attack per round using the claws. what happen when i reach the level where i get 2 attack normally? can i do the claw attack and then attack with something else or even claw again?
I had a look at the previous post about didnt find anything that could answer my questions.
1) Yes, natural weapons count as light weapons so you can use Weapon Finesse with them.
2) Mixing natural weapons and manufactured weapons is explained in the 3.5 FAQ. Generally, you can make your normal number of weapon attacks with one hand and a single, extra claw attack at -5 with the other hand.
2) Mixing natural weapons and manufactured weapons is explained in the 3.5 FAQ. Generally, you can make your normal number of weapon attacks with one hand and a single, extra claw attack at -5 with the other hand.
And when using that option, the multi-attack feat might be useful to drop that -5 to -2.
He could get both attacks at -2 in addition if he multi-classed with monk and did unarmed strikes. Only half strength modifier though.
2 - i get two attack per round using the claws. what happen when i reach the level where i get 2 attack normally? can i do the claw attack and then attack with something else or even claw again?
A creature with natural attacks does not gain iterative attacks with a BaB increment (like with manufactured weapons). Which is, no matter if your BaB is 0, +6, or +20, if you have 2 claws and 1 bite, you would have 2 claws and 1 bite forever (special Feats omitted).
However, as hogarth pointed out, a creature with both manufactured weapons and natural weapons can still take his regular routine with his manufactured weapons (BaB dependant) and ADD his natural weapons not already involved.(In the example above, a creature with a one-handed weapon and no shield can take a full-attack - with possible multiple attacks - with the one-handed weapon, and add 1 Claw and 1 Bite; if the creature has both hands full, it can only add 1 Bite; if it has ALSO the mouth full (see Roronoa Zoro from the Anime/Manga One Piece...), it can use only the manufactured weapons).
Note that, differently from a two-weapon fighting (which imposes a penalty to all the attacks), the manufactured weapons attacks do not take any penalties; the natural attacks, however, are all treated as secondary attacks at a -5 penalty (fixed), or at a -2 penalty (fixed) if the creature has the Multiattack Feat. All secondary attacks use only half the Strength bonus of the creature to damage rolls (as Majuba pointed out, ninjaing me...).
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Ok, cool thank you for clarifying things for me, I have only one last question which i not quite sure.
1 - while doing the two claw attacks what penalties are imposed? (the weapon fighting penalties? ) and to make it simple at level 1 do i apply my BAB to my attacks with my claws?
2 - While under the effect of lets say shocking grasp can it be discharged when i am doing my claw attacks on the next round? that question goes for any touch spells really can i deliver touch spells while attacking with my claws?
think i dont have any more questions really.
at least not at this time..
thank you all in advance by the way it has helped alot to understand these things unfortunately that area on the book doesnt seems very self explanatory.
regards.
1 - while doing the two claw attacks what penalties are imposed? (the weapon fighting penalties? ) and to make it simple at level 1 do i apply my BAB to my attacks with my claws?
2 - While under the effect of lets say shocking grasp can it be discharged when i am doing my claw attacks on the next round? that question goes for any touch spells really can i deliver touch spells while attacking with my claws?
1. You always apply your BAB to all attacks. These are natural attacks so there are no penalties. Your attack roll should be your BAB+STR+Size. If you take Weapon Finesse, you can use DEX instead of STR for the attack rolls. So, at level 1, assuming a simple STR of 10 and no Weapon Finesse, and you are not a halfling or a gnome, then you should be +0/+0 with your two claws as a full-round action. Now, if you're a gnome, and you bumped your STR up to 12, then you would be +2/+2 with your claws at level 1.
Claws (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can make two claw attacks as your full-attack action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, meaning that you are always considered armed and you do not gain additional attacks for a high base attack bonus.
2. You can cast any spell with a range of touch and then hold the charge indefinitely, releasing the charge at some future round, even if that is several days later. Unfortunately, while holding a charge, you cannot cast any other spells or the one you're "holding" dissipates. And yes, if you're holding a charge, any time you touch an enemy, with a melee touch attack, or a melee claw attack, you can discharge the held spell into that enemy.
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don’t discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indef initely. You can make touch attacks round after round. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.
2) Mixing natural weapons and manufactured weapons is explained in the 3.5 FAQ. Generally, you can make your normal number of weapon attacks with one hand and a single, extra claw attack at -5 with the other hand.
Actually, this contradicts what the Pathfinder Beta book says about the sorcerer:
Claws (Ex): Starting at 1st level, you can make two claw attacks as your full-attack action. These claws are treated as natural weapons, meaning that you are always considered armed and you do not gain additional attacks for a high base attack bonus.
(boldface emphasis mine)
This means that at 20th level, a sorcerer with BAB 10 and a 10 STR would be +10/+10 with her two claws. There would be no extra iterative attack for her high BAB.
Since these two documents contradict each other, it's probably up to each individual DM as to how to interpret this.
As for me, I think the default ruling is that any new Pathfinder rule that breaks an existing 3.5 rule was deliberately designed to do so, therefore it's a design of the game, in this case, of the sorcerers' claws, to overrule the 3.5 FAQ in this case.
Now, that would be my default ruling, applicable to all things Pathfinder, but still subject to individual analysis and possibly house-ruling as needed.
In this case, I don't see any reason to limit that extra attack from the puny sorcerer. At levels high enough for a sorcerer to get a 2nd attack (11 and up) those little tiny child-like claws will be nothing compared to his spell damage, and with his AC and HP, charging into melee with bared claws is a recipe for sorcerer suicide.
Isn't it kind of silly to write "S e o n i" at the top of your posts?
What is the purpose of that anyways...?
Isn't it kind of silly to write "S e o n i" at the top of your posts?
What is the purpose of that anyways...?
I can't speak for S e o n i, but I've noticed that if you start a list in one of the lines next to your avatar, the "dot" that starts one of your list items is gobbled up by the avatar picture. So forcing the writing to start after the avatar picture would avoid that problem.
This means that at 20th level, a sorcerer with BAB 10 and a 10 STR would be +10/+10 with her two claws. There would be no extra iterative attack for her high BAB.
I wasn't suggesting that a sorcerer would get iterative claw attacks. I was suggesting that a sorcerer could have iterative dagger attacks (say), with a claw attack on the side.
E.g. a 20th level sorcerer could attack with a dagger at +10/+5 and add an additional attack with a clawed hand at +5 (the -5 penalty is for using a secondary attack).
But if you don't like the 3.5 FAQ interpretation, just ignore it and say that you can't mix natural weapons and manufactured weapons (unless it says so in a monster entry).
Isn't it kind of silly to write "S e o n i" at the top of your posts?
What is the purpose of that anyways...?
Several people do something like that to space down the post beyond the avatar.
Ah. Thanks.
This means that at 20th level, a sorcerer with BAB 10 and a 10 STR would be +10/+10 with her two claws. There would be no extra iterative attack for her high BAB.I wasn't suggesting that a sorcerer would get iterative claw attacks. I was suggesting that a sorcerer could have iterative dagger attacks (say), with a claw attack on the side.
E.g. a 20th level sorcerer could attack with a dagger at +10/+5 and add an additional attack with a clawed hand at +5 (the -5 penalty is for using a secondary attack).
Ah, well, I guess I misunderstood.
In this case, the weapon becomes the primary (always, per RAW) and the natural attack(s) become the secondary, and suffer the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (the Multiattack feat reduces this to -2 for those interested, though for a sorcerer to get +3 to hit with a weak secondary claw seems a poor use of a precious feat, probably).
Which agrees with what you said.
So, now that I'm finally on the same page, it seems we agree :)
In this case, the weapon becomes the primary (always, per RAW) and the natural attack(s) become the secondary, and suffer the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (the Multiattack feat reduces this to -2 for those interested, though for a sorcerer to get +3 to hit with a weak secondary claw seems a poor use of a precious feat, probably).
It depends on the sorcerer.
A sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight (up to BAB +15 for sorcerer 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10) with a spell storing melee weapon and a held charge touch spell can be a fairly effective combatant. Multiattack may be worth it for this character.
In this case, the weapon becomes the primary (always, per RAW) and the natural attack(s) become the secondary, and suffer the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (the Multiattack feat reduces this to -2 for those interested, though for a sorcerer to get +3 to hit with a weak secondary claw seems a poor use of a precious feat, probably).It depends on the sorcerer.
A sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight (up to BAB +15 for sorcerer 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10) with a spell storing melee weapon and a held charge touch spell can be a fairly effective combatant. Multiattack may be worth it for this character.
Maybe, but the held charge goes off on the first hit (the one multi-attack doesn't improve) and then the other attacks are just lame old claws again.
Sure, it's a little bit of added damage, so it probably is worth it.
But really, can't a powerful spellcaster find something better to do with his time than scratch the balor/pit fiend/colossal dragon/tarrasque with his little puny sorcerer claws?
IMHO, the Draconic Claws only really come into their own with the Dragon Disciple. Keeping Draconic Sorceror until 20, I don't see the Claws being as usefull. But same goes for practically all the 1st level abilities: Are Wizards really going to be using their Mage Hand attack or Elemental Rays at 20 either? So I don't really see the big deal here. It only has to be useful until the point that the Caster has better things to do, and it seem like it accomplishes that goal. It will be interesting if we see any PrC's that are equivalent in over-all aim to the Dragon Disciple, but with a Demonic/Devil/Elemental "Bloodline Paragon" theme instead.
Maybe, but the held charge goes off on the first hit (the one multi-attack doesn't improve) and then the other attacks are just lame old claws again.In this case, the weapon becomes the primary (always, per RAW) and the natural attack(s) become the secondary, and suffer the -5 penalty for secondary natural attacks (the Multiattack feat reduces this to -2 for those interested, though for a sorcerer to get +3 to hit with a weak secondary claw seems a poor use of a precious feat, probably).It depends on the sorcerer.
A sorcerer/fighter/eldritch knight (up to BAB +15 for sorcerer 9/fighter 1/eldritch knight 10) with a spell storing melee weapon and a held charge touch spell can be a fairly effective combatant. Multiattack may be worth it for this character.
The held charge is on the claw and the spell storing weapon can also discharge a spell. With the Quickened Spell feat, that's three spell effects, plus melee damage, in a single round. Granted, there are level limits on spell storing and Quickened Spell, but it can still be a lot of pain to the target.