Just to be a bit different to other Rogues, I decided to arm mine with two Hand Crossbows. Along with this I took the Bleed ability.
My theory was that the Rogue would be big on avoiding direct confrontation, instead relying on 'hitman' style tactics - ie shooting the baddies in the back from 30'.
I read elsewhere on the forums that 'surprise attacks' can affect more than one melee hit, but what about two hand crossbow bolts?
If my enemy is engaged in a melee (or advancing to a melee) and I shoot him in the back, is that considered 'flanked'? Flanking appears to be a mechanic geared toward providing a melee bonus, but leaves a cloud when it comes to matters of range, only providing a 0 modifier - but is that Flanked, with no bonus to hit, or not flanked?
If we presume all of the above works, does the Bleeding stack? Or can the opponent only be affected by bleeding once?
A 30' Sniper doesn't sound too dramatic (what Id give for it to be 100' with a Heavy Crossbow!) but I'd really like to make it all work.
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In 3.5, you can't flank with a ranged weapon (you don't actually threatened any squares when using a ranged weapon) and I don't believe this has changed for the Beta. So you wouldn't get to deal sneak attack damage and you wouldn't get the +2 flanking bonus. Instead, you'd take the -4 for firing into melee unless you have the Precise Shot feat.
-Skeld
I don't disagree with you there on the interpretation.
Seems out of kilter with what I'd expect in a contact - If they were advancing on an enemy in front of them, and weren't expecting one at the rear, would the person behind them still be taking a 'surprise shot'?
Obviously in a 'complete surprise' scenario you would be catching them flat footed - so moot if its in the front or the rear (that almost sounds so wrong). Personally I think the flanking rules are a bit odd - If I can knife you in the back I am flanking you, but if I stand 5 feet away and crack you in the back of the head with a crossbow you aren't :p
Personally, i always found the rules preventing to flank or sneak attack from distance were absurd.
What about snipers ? Do they shoot their targets from 30 feet only ?
I allow range flanking and range sneak attacks in my games, and for sneak attack i allow greater distances than 30ft, each d6 granting 30ft of range.
I allow range flanking and range sneak attacks in my games, and for sneak attack i allow greater distances than 30ft, each d6 granting 30ft of range.
Interesting work around.
Also I took the flanking modifier as being representative of the notion that its easier to stick someone in the back or side (hence the + to hit) than it is to hit from the front where they can more aggressively defend.
They are still trying to avoid you and trying to bring shields to bear, but you do get a tactical advantage.
Once again it would flow that the same elements would notionally come into play from a ranged attack because the arrow would be coming out of nowhere and thus hard to defend against. That being said, whether you are firing at the back or the front of a target would make no difference to the archer as the target will still have the same silhouette - so hence no modifier - the consideration on 'to hit' would be all geared around penetration of armour etc.
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Flanking rules don't apply to ranged attacks. I think the sniper effect you're looking for is the Surprise Round which denies your opponent's DEX bonus, and thus your Rogue sniper can apply Sneak Attack. After the surprise round, your opponent is aware of the attack and can defend himself.
Other things you might consider are Feats which might extend the range increment of your weapon, Careful Aim which might allow an attack bonus if spend a full round doing nothing but focusing on your target, etc. Disclaimer: no idea if these Feats exist, but they'd be the kind of thing I'd be looking for a sniper role.
After the surprise round, your opponent is aware of the attack and can defend himself.
Actually I was considering just this very point while out exercising this morning.
If two parties are engaged in combat, and a third party subsequently springs an ambush, can the 'already engaged' parties be 'surprised' under the ruleset?
Probably a point to ponder outside the intent of this thread though!
As you can tell, I am somewhat new to the concepts of 3.5 - coming straight from AD&D and 2nd Ed. Its almost familiar, yet so very different. I think 3.5 (so far) seems a lot lighter on tactics, though will be interested to see how that opinion might change as we have more sessions.
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If two parties are engaged in combat, and a third party subsequently springs an ambush, can the 'already engaged' parties be 'surprised' under the ruleset?
The "already engaged" parties would be surprised if they failed the Spot checks they are entitled to (opposed by the "third" party's Hide check). Under the "sniping" usage of the Hide skill, the 3rd party would be entitled to a sneak attack and an immediate opportunity to Hide again at a -20 penalty.
-Skeld
Thanks for that Skeld.
You seem adept at solving the conundrums of the masses, one perplexing puzzle at a time :)
If two parties are engaged in combat, and a third party subsequently springs an ambush, can the 'already engaged' parties be 'surprised' under the ruleset?The "already engaged" parties would be surprised if they failed the Spot checks they are entitled to (opposed by the "third" party's Hide check). Under the "sniping" usage of the Hide skill, the 3rd party would be entitled to a sneak attack and an immediate opportunity to Hide again at a -20 penalty.
Yes, basically with hiding you can sneak attack, whether the first round or later. Usually takes a move action, but you'd nee to reload your crossbows anyhow. (I at least rule that even with Rapid Reload you can't reload with two of them in hand as free actions).
Or use a plain ol' bow and arrow; reloading is moot under 3.x/Pathfinder. And you can get better damage with the composite feature (+x Str) over the crossbow.
-Skeld
Yeah but for me its all about Style>Substance!
There are definitely feats/PrC's that will increase your range with sneak attacks if you are interested in that. One thing to note though, unless the target is flat footed/denied their DEX through out an entire round you will be hard pressed to get more than one attack with sneak attack damage off in ranged combat. During a "surprise round" you only get a standard action (and possibly free actions) which means you would never be able to bring multiple attacks into the mix (either from a single crossbow or from two crossbows, you need to make a full round attack to do so). Even using the skill Hide, sniping states you get to make 1 (single) attack before hiding.
Even being hidden/unseen during a round will only get you the SA damage on the first attack unless you have something like Greater Invisibility, as you become visible/seen as soon as you make that first attack (preventing further attacks with SA afterwards).
Getting your SA to kick in on ranged attacks generally requires more planning and effort on your part, you will have to "jump through hoops" in comparison to using it in melee. Two of the most exploitable ways in 3.5 - balancing or climbing, balancing means you are flat footed unless you have 5 ranks, climbing states you lose your DEX (unless you have a climb speed) while climbing. The grease spell will do wonders for you at lower levels if you can get someone to cast it or have the money/skill points to buy a scroll (or wand even) of the spell cast by someone with a few levels (1 round/level duration) and take advantage of Use Magic Device. This is much less useful in the PFRPG due to the skill consolidation and removal of the 1/2 ranks on non class skills (everyone should have acrobatics if possible in the new rules if there is the chance they will be moving around in melee combat regularly).
If you have a ranger in the party I believe there is an alternative class feature in the Players Handbook 2 that allows them to make a target considered "flanked" for a round via ranged attack (I forget what you gave up and if it was a standard action or full round action to do, but it wouldn't be useful for you to multiclass to get it either way). He or she would be your new best friend as you both would have the skill points to put into Hide and Move Silently (or Stealth in PFRPG). A continuous use message wonderous magic item (aka short range radio) would even be worthwhile considering how much you'd end up using it, at least until you get items that allow for telepathy and such. If your character is into the "team work" aspect that is.
As for the restrictions on SA and ranged combat, once you get more familiar with the rules and the system I think you'll understand why they are there and why they balance the way they do. Hope this helps some and enjoy!
...During a "surprise round" you only get a standard action (and possibly free actions) which means you would never be able to bring multiple attacks into the mix (either from a single crossbow or from two crossbows, you need to make a full round attack to do so). Even using the skill Hide, sniping states you get to make 1 (single) attack before hiding.
That is what I get for saying "never"...
I just remembered about Manyshot, as a standard action you can put out multiple ranged attacks against 1 target but you will only get SA on one of them. There is a Greater Manyshot feat (SRD & printed in Expanded Psionics Handbook though it isn't a psionic feat, url here, scroll down/search for feat name on the page) as well that allows you to target multiple opponents and get the damage, but as a non human "straight" rogue you won't be seeing that until 9th level at least with the BAB and feat requirements in 3.5 (+6 BAB, 4 feats total, Dex 17). Extra attacks possible are a function of the BAB so this is less useful as a rogue and/or if you are planning on trying to take advantage of dual wielding crossbows some how (a magic enhancement that automatically reloads the crossbow is out there someplace as well).
This would allow for you to get multiple shots out on surprise round versus a flat footed opponent. This may be the only way to pull this off in "Core" rules (or at least what our group considers core I should say).