|
I only know what I see in my area as far as living games. There was some interest in LFR 4.0 when it first came out and that has died out. Games days pull in less then 12 people usually where LG 3.5 game days had 2 to 3x as much. Most gaming stores seem to have very little shelf space dedicated to DnD 4.0.
That has been the experience I have had in New Zealand also. An initial race to get 4E core + supplements and then sort of a fade. I was hoping for a return to the "good old days" of D&D when the games clubs I were part of had mostly roleplaying, a little bit of wargaming and a few social rejects playing Magic the Splattering <he he>. Perhaps WotC should think about creating a chain of stores like the Games Workshop model? Have games running in the shops etc? With the new miniatures based 4E I would have thought that it now is not a bad visual game for spectators.
S.
|
|
I think they actually had a chain of WotC stores, some years ago, and it ended up being a loss, and they closed them down.
The local game stores still around do serve this role.
I wish then that WotC would lift its game with respect to supporting the local games stores. I know that our local store has the privilege of selling 4E but beyond that WotC really does nothing to support the game. Perhaps NZ is a arse end of nowhere and therefore doesn't register on the accounts department at WotC?
S.
Chief Technical Officer
|
I think they actually had a chain of WotC stores, some years ago, and it ended up being a loss, and they closed them down.
Most of the Wizards of the Coast retail stores were doing pretty well when they were shut down. Those stores moved an awful lot of Pokémon cards...
I believe that Hasbro just wasn't keen on the idea of doing direct retail sales and competing with their other distribution channels.
|
Director of Brand Strategy
|
WotC has said* that RPGA numbers have been up at an all-time high, which would seem to support that the general trend hasn't seen any real loss of activity.
I don't know if this is inherently a lie. Every time a new person registers for RPGA the number of total members is higher than ever before. That doesn't mean that the tens of thousands of people who were registered and active under LG are still playing LFR, but they're still members of RPGA. It doesn't take much logic to un-spin most of what WotC says these days. If they can convince us that they're doing great, they just might actually do so!
|
I don't know if this is inherently a lie. Every time a new person registers for RPGA the number of total members is higher than ever before.WotC has said* that RPGA numbers have been up at an all-time high, which would seem to support that the general trend hasn't seen any real loss of activity.
In this case, it seems that they are talking about the rate at which new registrations are coming in. I have nothing to back this up but a gut feeling. However, it wouldn't do WotC any good to lie about something that is so easily refuted. More likely this is just poor wording.
I won't stand for your vicious slander
Vicious slander? Have I made suprisingly inventive musings about your ancestry, invoking a multitude of creatures and some acts that are anatomically impossible? Have I used pejorative remarks about your gender, nationality, religion, or sexual orientation?
I didn't double check, but I'm pretty sure I didn't do any of this. Where do you get the vicious slander?
invoking a multitude of creatures and some acts that are anatomically impossible?
I would like a list
|
|
Most of the Wizards of the Coast retail stores were doing pretty well when they were shut down. Those stores moved an awful lot of Pokémon cards...I believe that Hasbro just wasn't keen on the idea of doing direct retail sales and competing with their other distribution channels.
I understand this fully what you are saying, but even when we were not in a recession it always seemed that companies such as Battlefront (Flames of War), Games Work$hop, and more recently Privateer Press have done quite a bit in "public good" activities that are well supported by the companies themselves. Not solely relying on the good will of the store owners and the people to run the games (for charity and love of the hobby). Our local store owner doesn't just sell 4E products and he has little time to organise events, so that isn't an option. Paying for another staff member, again not really an option. So we are down to enticement of gamers themselves, which either comes down to his wallet, Hasbro's wallet, or begging for good will. Let's say option three, most RPers I know wargame also (same general audience even more so now). Why would they gave up an afternoon running 4E when that same afternoon can be spot prize in an ongoing already organised weekend game of Flames of War?
Not sure of what I expect? Just had thought of all the gaming companies (in the greater sense) that Hasbro could have gone nuts and made D&D a house hold name along with monopoly.
Observations and musings from my little part of the World. Agree or disagree as you choose.
S.
In this case, it seems that they are talking about the rate at which new registrations are coming in. I have nothing to back this up but a gut feeling. However, it wouldn't do WotC any good to lie about something that is so easily refuted. More likely this is just poor wording.I don't know if this is inherently a lie. Every time a new person registers for RPGA the number of total members is higher than ever before.WotC has said* that RPGA numbers have been up at an all-time high, which would seem to support that the general trend hasn't seen any real loss of activity.
I haven't heard anything about new registration numbers, but the boasts I've seen from WotC guys regarding the RPGA is that actual play is higher than it's ever been. Since all RPGA events are reported (including number of players and number of adventures played), they can easily keep track of whether more or fewer RPGA games are taking place. In this case, they've said that it's more.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
I haven't heard anything about new registration numbers, but the boasts I've seen from WotC guys regarding the RPGA is that actual play is higher than it's ever been. Since all RPGA events are reported (including number of players and number of adventures played), they can easily keep track of whether more or fewer RPGA games are taking place. In this case, they've said that it's more.
Easily attributed to the first-ever policy of being able to replay adventures, and play adventures you've read. The heavy play crowd always accounted for the majority of events, and a substantial chunk of those folks are doing adventures 2 or more times each. Makes any comparisons with old numbers dubious at best.
And of course, as always, since only WotC knows the numbers, they're free to spin it any way they want, and no one can disprove it. Even if they *did* lie about numbers, and it were proven, there'd be no consequences - they aren't obligated to be truthful about sales or play.
Con attendance for RPGA events is certainly down in my area, with the majority of the south-of-Portland crowd having given up on the RPGA entirely. Doubtless this varies from area to area, but clearly a lot of die-hard RPGA playes did not transition from LG to LFR. And yes, I acknowledge many did go to LFR, along with some new players.
Russ
|
|
He might not have provided the other numbers, but the implication was there: "Look how great 4ePHB2 is, it ranks quite high". Which was followed by: "Aargh! Highest ranks are inferior to some books from the bottom"
It was in good fun, but it's interesting that you had to attack my logic at once.
No implication. I'm still astounded Twilight did so well when Butcher's series is infinitely superior. (When is evilhat gonna publish the rpg?!?)
The 4E stuff is for the rest of y'all to munch on ;-)
|
|
And of course, as always, since only WotC knows the numbers, they're free to spin it any way they want, and no one can disprove it. Even if they *did* lie about numbers, and it were proven, there'd be no consequences - they aren't obligated to be truthful about sales or play.
That applies to any company. So should we not believe, for example, Paizo and its subscriptions and PfRPG download numbers? I don't remember reading independent confirmation of those numbers, either.
Con attendance for RPGA events is certainly down in my area, with the majority of the south-of-Portland crowd having given up on the RPGA entirely. Doubtless this varies from area to area, but clearly a lot of die-hard RPGA playes did not transition from LG to LFR. And yes, I acknowledge many did go to LFR, along with some new players.
Russ
And in my area, both the local rpga and con attendance has gone up. So how does our experiences factor in the overall effect on 4e?
And pictures of course.invoking a multitude of creatures and some acts that are anatomically impossible?I would like a list
Just search the Internet. There's stuff out there that'll make just about anyone shudder. Maybe not the same things for different people, but still...
Easily attributed to the first-ever policy of being able to replay adventures, and play adventures you've read.
Sure, this might have something to do with it. But at the same time we're not seeing a noticeable decline in RPGA participation.
No implication. I'm still astounded Twilight did so well when Butcher's series is infinitely superior. (When is evilhat gonna publish the rpg?!?)
Haven't read either. I just saw that Small Favor is part of the Dresden Files. I've been hearing good things about it, and I guess I'll pick them up one of these days (still have some PF and PS stuff to read, and I think another couple of books, but still, you can't have enough books. Ever since I stopped reading FR stuff, I'm looking for new stuff to fill the gap)
invoking a multitude of creatures and some acts that are anatomically impossible?I would like a list
Sorry, can't. Age restrictions. This list and the accompanying pictures can only be looked at by 100-year-olds with their parents' supervision.
Are there non-english versions of 4E?
S.
Absolutely.
You'll need to do some searching with book retailers that cater to specific languages, but a quick search turned up an online retailer selling the 4th Edition catalog in Italian (you can find the PHB here).
|
|
He might not have provided the other numbers, but the implication was there: "Look how great 4ePHB2 is, it ranks quite high". Which was followed by: "Aargh! Highest ranks are inferior to some books from the bottom"
It was in good fun, but it's interesting that you had to attack my logic at once.
No implication. I'm still astounded Twilight did so well when Butcher's series is infinitely superior. (When is evilhat gonna publish the rpg?!?)
The 4E stuff is for the rest of y'all to munch on ;-)
Why is it "astounding"? There are more 13 year old girls on the planet than people who read Butcher ;)
Sorry, can't. Age restrictions. This list and the accompanying pictures can only be looked at by 100-year-olds with their parents' supervision.
Looks at his ID I am pretty sure I meet that one
|
|
When I went to OwlCon, there were far more players playing 4e (I don't recall if they had an official "Living Realms" game, but they had quite a few 4e games) than there were playing 3x or Pathfinder Society (I RAN the Pathfinder Society games, I should know).
Regardless of whether some people like 4e or not, there is no doubt in my mind that it is doing well. Whether or not it is doing better than earlier editions is immaterial (and like I said, 1e AD&D, in volume of players, did better than either 3x or 4e, fads are fads, and gaming hasn't been a fad for a long time).
As long as the game is bringing people who didn't play before in to the hobby, who cares? There's a bigger pool of players for me to steal and "retrain" for my game, so it's a good thing :)
|
|
As long as the game is bringing people who didn't play before in to the hobby, who cares? There's a bigger pool of players for me to steal and "retrain" for my game, so it's a good thing :)
Well said. I have yet to find a roleplayer you hasn't dabbled in numerous types of games. As long as somewhere someone is making good quality cool looking pen & paper games to halt the "computer generation" its fine by me.
S.
Looks at his ID I am pretty sure I meet that one
Got your parents with you?
Are there non-english versions of 4E?
There was a German 4e, but they canned it. They didn't give a reason, but from my observations in the past years, the reason could be that this version of German D&D, just like any other I've seen, was horrible (at least one link to former editions ;-P)
But then again, I'm not exactly impressed with the German stuff for Pathfinder, either.
Office max is having a price shred sale, I believe that it's never been cheaper to pick up some vicious slander
Do they deliver? The vicious slander I'm getting here has been quite bland, I'm looking for something fresh.
I just checked; as of 4/6/09, the 4E PH@ is no longer in the top 150.
How quickly they fade...
DogBone
|
There was a German 4e, but they canned it.
There is a French one, which even has a magazine sold in regular press retail "Dragon Rouge".
I can't speak about the edition, but the mag looked pretty good for a 4e player ... which I am not.
the other French RPG mag, called "Jeu de Rôle Magazine" also speaks about 4e, but also about Pathfinder, and other games too (call of Cthulhu ...)
BTW, I'll be visiting Berlin soon. Any good RPG shops to visit there ?
|
|
I wouldn't read much into this, honestly. I hope 4e does very well, but I (and at least 4 or 5 of my friends I know) are great examples of how this statistic is misleading.
I bought the 3 book core boxed set, had it shipped from Amazon.com the day it was released (no FLGS). SO I helped push those sales numbers.
But after reading through it, I don't like 4e. It's a personal thing. I don't like how constricted, limited, and shoe-horned char. gen. is. I don't like a lot of the basic changes they've made to creatures, and I really don't like what I'd call the "Book of 9 Swords on Steroids" feel to how fighters work now. I didn't like B9S for 3.5, why would I like more of the same in 4? And how do you explain that "healing surge" thing? I get hp back just by hanging out for a bit?
Anyway, this post isn't about why I do or don't like 4e, and as I said, I really hope they do well. What's good for 4e is good for the hobby in general, and I don't want to start (yet another) "my d&d edition is better than yours" argument.
The point I AM trying to make is that I represent 4e base sales, and I do not like or play 4e. Now the PHB2, some could argue might be different, but I'd still say there are a fair few people who are hoping that 4e can still be "saved", in their eyes, with a few more supplements. You know, "once I see them bring back Bards, hopefully it will be OK". Buying a book does NOT necessarily equal playing the game, and as far as the future of the industry goes, which do you think matters more?
BTW, I'll be visiting Berlin soon. Any good RPG shops to visit there ?
Never was in Berlin, can't give you any first-hand information about this.
I know about Serious Games (which is closed) and Morgenwelt. Can't tell you how good they are.
What are you up to in Berlin, anyway?
But after reading through it, I don't like 4e. It's a personal thing. I don't like how constricted, limited, and shoe-horned char. gen. is. I don't like a lot of the basic changes they've made to creatures, and I really don't like what I'd call the "Book of 9 Swords on Steroids" feel to how fighters work now. I didn't like B9S for 3.5, why would I like more of the same in 4? And how do you explain that "healing surge" thing? I get hp back just by hanging out for a bit?
Anyway, this post isn't about why I do or don't like 4e, and as I said, I really hope they do well. What's good for 4e is good for the hobby in general, and I don't want to start (yet another) "my d&d edition is better than yours" argument.
It's curious that someone who doesn't want to discuss why or why he doesn't like 4th Edition feels it's necessary to list four separate reasons why he doesn't like 4th Edition.
I mean, really, if you didn't want to discuss it, you didn't have to. Instead, this smacks much more of "I want to express my opinion without allowing others to express their own by disagreeing with me."
You're right, your reasons for why you like or don't like 4th Edition are not on-topic here. So why did you give them?
|
|
I mean, really, if you didn't want to discuss it, you didn't have to. Instead, this smacks much more of "I want to express my opinion without allowing others to express their own by disagreeing with me."You're right, your reasons for why you like or don't like 4th Edition are not on-topic here. So why did you give them?
I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.
Neither you nor I can really influence this persons opinion, so what is the point of disagreeing (even if given the chance)? I don't see the problem as they quite clearly stated it was their position and gave clear reasons why they had taken this position with regards to 4E. Their experience with 4E is their experience with 4E.
S.
|
|
It's curious that someone who doesn't want to discuss why or why he doesn't like 4th Edition feels it's necessary to list four separate reasons why he doesn't like 4th Edition.I mean, really, if you didn't want to discuss it, you didn't have to. Instead, this smacks much more of "I want to express my opinion without allowing others to express their own by disagreeing with me."
You're right, your reasons for why you like or don't like 4th Edition are not on-topic here. So why did you give them?
Sorry, you're right...I tend to ramble when I post, and it was not my intent to offend. I'll edit the post.
Well, turns out my ability to edit the post is gone... there must be some time limit on that or something.
I guess the apology will have to do.
|
|
Sorry, you're right...I tend to ramble when I post, and it was not my intent to offend. I'll edit the post.Well, turns out my ability to edit the post is gone... there must be some time limit on that or something.
I guess the apology will have to do.
No problem dude, I understood fully what you were getting at. You just have to be careful in the 4E boards, some people are extremely sensitive about anything or anyone that would sully the name of 4E. Almost to the point where your opinion is only valid if you support all the rules/mechanics of 4E in fact.
I brought 4E played it, hated it, took it back out of the cupboard (strangely enough I have Scott to thank for that) and gave it another go. Now I'm really enjoying it. So my completely invalid opinion, take 4E back out of storage sometime and try just an afternoons game with a small 2-3 may be group of friends - you may be pleasantly surprise.
Off topic I know, sue me.
S.
Scott isn't disagreeing with him for the sake of disagreement - he is simply pointing out (since more than a few folks keep making posts like this) that if someone honestly doesn't want to start up an argument about which edition is better, that needs to start with them.
Alternatively, if one doesn't wish to start up an argument about which edition is better it could also start with the person who makes the initial argument. Both are capable of stopping and both are required for there to be an argument. If no second person came, then it would be just one post in a big thread.
|
|
Is "Thin Skin" a Paragon Tier Encounter power? Just curious.
Dude said he bought 4e, listed a few reasons why he doesn't PLAY 4e, and used his personal experience as a reason why sales doesn't necessarily = game play.
Perfectly on topic, perfectly valid. Taking the poor guy to task for having an opinion and relating it the topic is crass, frankly.
Good job, you two. Seriously, this is the type of thing that DOES continue the beating of the dead horse that is the 3x/4e "my system is better" stupidity. Dude wasn't in attack mode, wasn't trolling, doesn't have an agenda, so stop thinking everyone who doesn't play or like 4e is a cretinous troll.
|
|
BTW, I'll be visiting Berlin soon. Any good RPG shops to visit there ?Never was in Berlin, can't give you any first-hand information about this.
I know about Serious Games (which is closed) and Morgenwelt. Can't tell you how good they are.
What are you up to in Berlin, anyway?
I won a voucher with a free plane ticket at a company tombola.
I won a voucher with a free plane ticket at a company tombola.
So, it will be some sight-seeing and blowing money on known RPGs in strange and foreign game stores?
So, it will be some sight-seeing and blowing money on known RPGs in strange and foreign game stores?I won a voucher with a free plane ticket at a company tombola.
That sounds like a good plane, he should do that
|
|
Is "Thin Skin" a Paragon Tier Encounter power? Just curious.From what I have read it's actually "Improved Thin Skin" at Paragon Tier, and basically it is an "Immediate Reaction" / "At-will" ability. It is why you see it happening so frequently and only as a "reply".
Hopes this helps,
S.
Can you move to Houston? I want you at my table! ;)
|
|
No problem dude, I understood fully what you were getting at. You just have to be careful in the 4E boards, some people are extremely sensitive about anything or anyone that would sully the name of 4E. Almost to the point where your opinion is only valid if you support all the rules/mechanics of 4E in fact.
Understandable really...I read some of the flame war threads (although I didn't really participate in any of them). Had I been involved in any of those, on EITHER side, I would have been a little sensitive as well to any potential of that stuff to re-surface.
I brought 4E played it, hated it, took it back out of the cupboard (strangely enough I have Scott to thank for that) and gave it another go. Now I'm really enjoying it. So my completely invalid opinion, take 4E back out of storage sometime and try just an afternoons game with a small 2-3 may be group of friends - you may be pleasantly surprise.Off topic I know, sue me.
S.
Certainly possible that this could happen with me as well. We shall see.
|
|
I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.
Yes, that very much was the point I was trying to make - sorry it got lost in my rambling. :)
I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.
This actually is a decent point to make: sales and popularity only correlate so far.
On the one hand, people may purchase the books and decide after reading through them that they are not going to make use of them in a game.
On the other hand (and the one I believe occurs far more often), people may not purchase any books and instead make use of books that are communally available (the DM's books, or a friend's books, or a library's books) to play the game.
I believe that the latter is more significant, and that ultimately popularity of 4th Edition is probably underrepresented by sales figures.
|
|
I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.This actually is a decent point to make: sales and popularity only correlate so far.
On the one hand, people may purchase the books and decide after reading through them that they are not going to make use of them in a game.
On the other hand (and the one I believe occurs far more often), people may not purchase any books and instead make use of books that are communally available (the DM's books, or a friend's books, or a library's books) to play the game.
I believe that the latter is more significant, and that ultimately popularity of 4th Edition is probably underrepresented by sales figures.
See, that's a lot better, frankly. Excellent counter-point.
See, that's a lot better, frankly. Excellent counter-point.I believe their point was that they had purchased the books but did not play the game. Therefore they added to the "4E is doing so well stats", but they were saying that they thought that actually playing the game counted more than sales (i.e. sales may not reflect the popularity of the game). Quite on topic.This actually is a decent point to make: sales and popularity only correlate so far.
On the one hand, people may purchase the books and decide after reading through them that they are not going to make use of them in a game.
On the other hand (and the one I believe occurs far more often), people may not purchase any books and instead make use of books that are communally available (the DM's books, or a friend's books, or a library's books) to play the game.
I believe that the latter is more significant, and that ultimately popularity of 4th Edition is probably underrepresented by sales figures.
I should also add that the above probably holds true for all editions of D&D (and, indeed, all tabletop role-playing games), and will inevitably also be the case for Pathfinder, when it is released.