In the next couple of months I'm going to start up a new Oriental Campaign based off of my take of L5R. While most pathfinder classes cover most of the Oriental Adventures classes. I need to tweak their version of the Samurai. The complete warrior version is nice but I don't want all my samurai dual wielding. The biggest hurtle is the Shugenja they seem really weak compared to clerics out of Pathfinder.
Has anyone converted these classes or have any advice for me?
I agree with your asessment of the "samurai" from CW - it sucked.
For the samurai, you'll just have to look into the skill list, and maybe do something about ancestral daisho.
Change it to work a lot like a wizard's bonded item - the samurai can enhance his daisho himself as if he had the necessary feats (and you should probably forego the spell requirements).
You might change the shugenja schools to work like PF domains. Otherwise, he's supposed to be mainly a caster.
|
For the Wu Jen, you could use the Pathfinder Domains of Fire, Earth and Water as the elemental school specialty powers, and then make up your own Domains for Metal and Wood (you can look at the ones I made for inspiration, or not).
You could either play it as a specialist, fixed in one 'Domain,' either at character generation, or changeable at certain level breaks (or any level break?) or allow the character to prepare different spells to access a different Domain each day, if he choses, or even tweak the class more and have less spells per day, but the ability to access multiple Elemental Domains at the same time (exchanging prepared spells for a wider range of Domain SLA powers).
For the Samurai, I'd stay away from the idea of the ancestral daisho automagically upgrading, and have it be a level-based 'gift' from the Daimyo. The character's items would upgrade off-screen as a level-up bonus, but the Samurai wouldn't be 'enchanting' them himself. His master would take care of that, either by having the court wizard do it, or invoking the spirits of the ancestors or just awarding him a better weapon!
I *would* include the magical upgrading weapon ability for a 20 level Kensai core class (or Samurai who PrCed into the Complete Warrior version of the Kensai), since that fits the lone sword saint far better than the Samurai, thematically, IMO.
Of all the original OA classes, the one I've most wanted to see made to work was the Sohei. The Wu Jen, Ninja, Samurai and Shugenja were just Japanese-flavored Wizards, Rogues, Fighters and Clerics, and the Sohei really stood out as a Cleric / Monk hybrid the likes of which the game had never seen, although the original write-up just seemed underwhelming... The Yakuza also got short shrift, IMO, being a strange sort of Rogue with more social and community interaction skills (things that, unfortunately, don't translate as well into a game that ultimately boils down to round-by-round combat scenes).
The traditional samurai were oddly enough,dual weilders. The Katana always had a companion wakizashi,and wearing them both was a symbol of status as a samurai. Hence the Samurai were in fact dual wielders. But then you look at the fact that the katana, is essntially a hand and a half sword, an the wakizashi was not always drawn.
In game mechanics,this would pretty much make a samurai take both the path of TWF and THF. Kinda costly in the way of feats.
Im sure however, through out history, in the real world, there were some samurai who excelled at one fighting style over another, and in fact I remember reading of one who was more of an archer than anything else.
I would say for game purposes samurai would get TWF feat for free at first level OR do something like the monk doesand give a list of feats they get to choose as bonus feats as realting to their daisho.
Honestly they still seem like flavored fighters to me and I'm not sure I see a reason for another class. There was little if any real difference between a well trained bushi and a samurai,other than social/political status. This would be the same difference between a knighted fighter and an unknighted fighter.
Also without making a specific class for the samurai, you could then use Rangers or fighters or paladins in your campaign as samurai and just give somekind of "Trait" or status to the samurai.
The biggest part of making something oriental isnt going to be the game mechanics and classes,but the gear, flair, etc.
You can call your fighter a bushi and give him a broadsword, or you can call him a samurai and give him a katana. There wouldnt be any actual difference in how he leveled.
The traditional samurai were oddly enough,dual weilders. The Katana always had a companion wakizashi,and wearing them both was a symbol of status as a samurai. Hence the Samurai were in fact dual wielders. But then you look at the fact that the katana, is essntially a hand and a half sword, an the wakizashi was not always drawn.
It could probably be argued both ways, since for many samurai the wakizashi was only used for executing an enemy or for seppaku.Miyamoto Musashi used both, but then again he was one of the greatest swordsmen of all time... maybe it might be better for it to be only for specific schools of samurai? Like you said, some samurai were mainly archers, and others were dismounted and used mainly spears. Perhaps at character creation you pick which focus your particular clan excels at (two weapon, archery, spear, etc.) and gain abilities based on that.
Samurai would most definitely get, at some point, Improved Grapple, too (I'm not sure what the 3.x already has for the samurai), as the progenitors of jiu-jitsu.
For the Samurai, I'd stay away from the idea of the ancestral daisho automagically upgrading, and have it be a level-based 'gift' from the Daimyo. The character's items would upgrade off-screen as a level-up bonus, but the Samurai wouldn't be 'enchanting' them himself. His master would take care of that, either by having the court wizard do it, or invoking the spirits of the ancestors or just awarding him a better weapon!
A court wizard doesn't fit with a samurai I'd say.
And throwing away the traditional family weapon handed down from father to son for three and a half dynasties to get something with a better bonus? Gaijin....
Bonded item-like mechanics fit best. It can be explained by a spiritual empowerment or something like that. The time is spent in meditation and so on.
The traditional samurai were oddly enough,dual weilders.
Not necessarily, and especially not in L5R. While they always carry the wakizashi (the sword never leaves the samurai's side), they don't necessarily fight with it.
In game mechanics,this would pretty much make a samurai take both the path of TWF and THF. Kinda costly in the way of feats.
Actually, they usually learn either one-sword style or two-sword style. (And in rokugan, one-sword was the usual way, with only the Dragon clan practising niten)
I would say for game purposes samurai would get TWF feat for free at first level OR do something like the monk doesand give a list of feats they get to choose as bonus feats as realting to their daisho.
I.e. how they did in OA/Rokugan d20 - samurai gain bonus feats which are either clan technique feats or come from the clan's bonus feat list.
As for fighters instead of samurai: We have rangers, and paladins, and barbarians, right?
Samurai would most definitely get, at some point, Improved Grapple, too (I'm not sure what the 3.x already has for the samurai), as the progenitors of jiu-jitsu.
In 3e (I'm still talking about the non-CW Samurai) they usually stick to weapons - there's couple of monk classes for unarmed fighting.
I'd say put it on the list of bonus feats, but not make it automatic.
Wow these are some great ideas. I'm just going to tweak the fighter’s skills abet for the Samurai and then have the player choose bonus feats based upon a clans style of fighting.
All of my players are going to have some sort of bonded/legacy item that grows with them as they level or achieve rp events. My last experience with buying and selling magic items in a game was not fun.
I think I'm going to leave the Shugenja class alone for the most part. I'm just going to drop the elemental focus ability for two domains one of which has to be of their chosen element. I will then divvy up the other domains by clan values ie.. Scorpion Trickery, Lion Glory.
Set I really like your Domains, Scalykind will work great for my Naga and Yaun Ti. The metal one is nice as well since I'm considering turning the crab clan into a dwarven clan.
|
|
A court wizard doesn't fit with a samurai I'd say.
The courts had astrologers and priests, I don't see a daimyo with a court wizard as being a bad thing. The court priest could replace that idea just as well, invoking the spirits of the ancestors on behalf of the Samurai.
And throwing away the traditional family weapon handed down from father to son for three and a half dynasties to get something with a better bonus? Gaijin....
As the weapon would be handed down by the Daimyo to the Samurai, it *would* represent a Clan / family weapon, not just 'something with a better bonus.' The 1st level Samurai wouldn't get awarded the bestest ancestral relic in the vault, until he's proven himself (one of the higher ranking Samurai in service to the daimyo would have that honor). He'd have some weapon that *also* was handed down, but from an ancestor who was far less auspicious.
On the other hand, if you want to see it that way, you're welcome to do so, but that really has nothing to do with what I was talking about.
It's also possible that one might be playing a Samurai who doesn't have a daimyo or any sort of connection to a lord, in which case, yeah, your self-enchantment thing would work better, but, IMO, that wouldn't really be a Samurai. I see the class as more connected to the ties to the feudal lord and less of a self-reliant solo-er.
How can a sword become legendary if it is thrown away as soon as your level suggests you get a better one?
I think something like legacy items works best: The magical properties will only be "unlocked" when you have proven yourself sufficiently. And if you give the sword to someone else, it's just a sword.
|
The traditional samurai were oddly enough,dual weilders. The Katana always had a companion wakizashi,and wearing them both was a symbol of status as a samurai. Hence the Samurai were in fact dual wielders. But then you look at the fact that the katana, is essntially a hand and a half sword, an the wakizashi was not always drawn.
It could probably be argued both ways, since for many samurai the wakizashi was only used for executing an enemy or for seppaku.Miyamoto Musashi used both, but then again he was one of the greatest swordsmen of all time... maybe it might be better for it to be only for specific schools of samurai? Like you said, some samurai were mainly archers, and others were dismounted and used mainly spears. Perhaps at character creation you pick which focus your particular clan excels at (two weapon, archery, spear, etc.) and gain abilities based on that.
Samurai would most definitely get, at some point, Improved Grapple, too (I'm not sure what the 3.x already has for the samurai), as the progenitors of jiu-jitsu.
for ideas check Oriental Adventures for 3.0 DnD on Samurai Schools...
Hankfor the seppuku wasn't it used the tanto?
|
|
How can a sword become legendary if it is thrown away as soon as your level suggests you get a better one?
I think something like legacy items works best: The magical properties will only be "unlocked" when you have proven yourself sufficiently. And if you give the sword to someone else, it's just a sword.
i like this idea... Midnight has something similar called Covenant Items... weapons, armor,wondrous items... that 'unlock' powers as the PC grows in power (level up)
we arecurrently trying something similar in a couple of games.
i have always hated the idea that a PC is silly if he gets attached to a weaponat low levels. why? because its useless in the future... theconcept of the game is to get the next powerful item...
as with PCs is a planned obsolescense
|
The traditional samurai were oddly enough,dual weilders. The Katana always had a companion wakizashi,and wearing them both was a symbol of status as a samurai. Hence the Samurai were in fact dual wielders. But then you look at the fact that the katana, is essntially a hand and a half sword, an the wakizashi was not always drawn.
It could probably be argued both ways, since for many samurai the wakizashi was only used for executing an enemy or for seppaku.Miyamoto Musashi used both, but then again he was one of the greatest swordsmen of all time... maybe it might be better for it to be only for specific schools of samurai? Like you said, some samurai were mainly archers, and others were dismounted and used mainly spears. Perhaps at character creation you pick which focus your particular clan excels at (two weapon, archery, spear, etc.) and gain abilities based on that.
Samurai would most definitely get, at some point, Improved Grapple, too (I'm not sure what the 3.x already has for the samurai), as the progenitors of jiu-jitsu.
for ideas check Oriental Adventures for 3.0 DnD on Samurai Schools...
Hankfor the seppuku wasn't it used the tanto?
tanto was used by the samurai commiting sepukku, the wakizashi was used by the attendant samurai to remove their head once they can't continue...
most samurai used only the katana in battle.
|
|
tanto was used by the samurai commiting sepukku, the wakizashi was used by the attendant samurai to remove their head once they can't continue...
most samurai used only the katana in battle.
yes i forgot this... the "don't let me lose honor if i can't continue"
Katana wasthemain weapon, what about other traditional weapons? lance, bow and arrow, etc?
tanto was used by the samurai commiting sepukku, the wakizashi was used by the attendant samurai to remove their head once they can't continue...
Oh that's right, and that has some other name... (can't recall it right now...).
As far as weapons and battlefield tactics, I have this one Osprey book titled "Samurai: 1550-1600, Weapons, Armor, Tactics" that is an excellent resource for their training, education, battlefield formations, etc, and I recommend it. (I actually recommend Osprey for just about anything; I have at least 100 of these things spanning several time periods, and their illustrations look like AD&D 2nd edition full-color spreads. Very inspiring and nostalgic at the same time! Plus these things aren't very long.)
|
The first samurai used bows and naginata. Once Japanese metallurgy progressed to the point that katana could be forged the naginata fell out of favor with samurai.
It was then adopted as the weapon for women to train with, to defend their homes and lands while the men were off to war.
My favorite character ever is a Crusader/Wizard/Jade Phoenix Mage woman, who carries a naginata (I just used the glaive and called it a naginata) and also took improved unarmed attack. Fun, flavorful, and it even has a nod toward historical context.
Hasaki also got the nickname "The Cuisinart"! Combat reflexes + stand still + enlarge = FUN!
How can a sword become legendary if it is thrown away as soon as your level suggests you get a better one?
I think something like legacy items works best: The magical properties will only be "unlocked" when you have proven yourself sufficiently. And if you give the sword to someone else, it's just a sword.
i like this idea... Midnight has something similar called Covenant Items... weapons, armor,wondrous items... that 'unlock' powers as the PC grows in power (level up)
we arecurrently trying something similar in a couple of games.
i have always hated the idea that a PC is silly if he gets attached to a weaponat low levels. why? because its useless in the future... theconcept of the game is to get the next powerful item...
as with PCs is a planned obsolescense
"unlocking" abilities and powers was an idea touched on in earthdawn.
In that system there are no healers and all magic items are pretty much that way because some great hero weiled them long ago. As you gain power you "tether" yourself to the weapon "accessing" more power of the item.
However if you picked up your chums weapon, it would just be a sword.
It's an intersting look at magic items.
Kinda like a paladin and holy avenger. If a rogue picks it up its a +2 longsword, if the pally has it its a whole lot more.
No reason why MORE items cant work just like a holy avenger and be class/birth right/level/ quest completed activated.
I just worked out a PFRPG version of a samurai.
Samurai
BAB: +1
Good Saves: Fortitude
Hit Dice: 1d10
Class Skills: Acrobatics, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge history, Knowledge local, Knowledge nobility & royalty, Linguistics, Perform, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive.
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier
Samurai are proficient in all Simple and Martial Weapons, All Armor, but not Shields.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Ki Pool, Ki Smite, 1st Ki Skill, Ki Will
2. Iaijitsu +2
3. Determined +1
4. Combat Style Feat
5. Critical Strike
6. Determined +2
7. 2nd Ki Skill
8. Combat Style Feat
9. Determined +3
10. Improved Ki Smite
11. Iaijitsu +4
12. Combat Style Feat, Determined +4
13. 3rd Ki Skill
14. Mettle
15. Greater Ki Strike, Determined +5
16. Combat Style Feat
17. Quick Ki
18. Determined +6
19. 4th Ki Skill
20. Combat Style Feat, Greater Ki Smite, Iaijitsu +6
Ki Pool (Ex). The Samurai has a number of points in his Ki Pool equal to 1/2 his class level + his Charisma bonus (minimum 1). As long as the Samurai has at least 1 point in his Ki Pool, he benefits from Ki Will. He can spend points from his Ki Pool to activate his various ki powers.
Ki Smite (Ex). By spending 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action, the Samurai can perform a Ki Smite. The Samurai adds his Charisma bonus (minimum +1) to his attack and damage rolls on a single attack.
Ki Skill (Ex). At levels 1, 7, 13, and 19, the Samurai chooses one of the following Ki Skills. He must choose a different skill each time he gains this ability.
Bluff. The Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool to Feint in Combat as a swift action.
Diplomacy. The Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action and make a Diplomacy check opposed by an opponent's Will Save who can understand him. If the Diplomacy check is successful, the opponent will not attack the Samurai for 1 round. If the Diplomacy check beats the Will Save by 10 points, the Samurai can direct the opponent to attack a target of the Samurai's choice for 1 round.
Handle Animal. The Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action and make a Handle Animal check opposed by an animal opponent's Will Save. If the Handle Animal check is successful, the opponent will not attack the Samurai for 1 round. If the Handle Animal check beats the Will Save by 10 points, the Samurai can direct the opponent to attack a target of the Samurai's choice for 1 round. The Samurai can also use this ability on a magical beast with an intelligence of 1 or 2, but he takes a -4 penalty to his Handle Animal skill check.
Intimidate. The Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action and make an Intimidate check against all opponents within 30 feet. Any who fail their Will Save are shaken for a number of rounds equal to the Samurai's Charisma bonus (minimum +1).
Perform. The Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action and make a Perform check to inspire all allies within 30 feet. For every 10 points of the Samurai's Perform check, his allies gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls, damage rolls, and Will saves for a number of rounds equal to the Samurai's Charisma bonus (minimum +1).
Sense Motive. As an immediate action, the Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool and make a Sense Motive check opposed the attack roll of an opponent that is adjacent to the Samurai. If the Sense Motive check is successful, the opponent's attack roll misses.
Ki Will (Ex). As long as the Samurai has 1 point in his Ki Pool, he adds his Charisma bonus (minimum +1) to his Will Saves.
Iaijitsu (Ex). The Samurai gains Quick Draw as a bonus feat. In addition, at 2nd level, he adds +2 to his Initiative check. This increases to +4 at 11th level and +6 at 20th level.
Determination (Ex). The Samurai is confident in himself. At 3rd level, he adds +1 to all opposed rolls. This increases by +1 at 6th level and every 3 levels thereafter.
Combat Style. At 4th level, the Samurai chooses one of three combat styles: Horseback Fighting, Two-Handed Weapon Fighting, or Two-Weapon Fighting. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the Samurai gains a bonus feat from his style of fighting. He must meet all requirements of the selected feat.
Horseback Fighting: Animal Affinity, Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Ride-by Attack, Spirited Charge, Trample.
Two-Handed Weapon Fighting: Backswing, Combat Reflexes, Devastating Blow, Improved Vital Strike, Overhand Chop, Vital Strike.
Two-Weapon Fighting: Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice, Two Weapon Rend, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Two Weapon Defense, Weapon Swap.
Critical Strike (Ex). At 5th level, when a Samurai strikes a flat-footed opponent, he treats the attack as if it were a critical hit.
Improved Ki Smite (Ex). At 10th level, the Samurai's Ki Smite ability improves. He adds his class level instead of his Charisma bonus to the additional damage of his Ki Smite if his level his higher than his Charisma bonus. He still only adds his Charisma to the attack roll.
Mettle (Ex). At 14th level, the Samurai gains the Hexblade ability of the same name.
Greater Critical Strike (Ex). At 15th level, the Samurai can spend 1 point from his Ki Pool as a swift action and increase his weapon's critical hit multiplier by 1 for a damage roll.
Quick Ki (Ex). At 17th level, the Samurai can spend points from his Ki Pool as a free action instead of a swift action.
Greater Ki Smite (Ex). At 20th level, the Samurai adds his level and his Charisma bonus to damage when he uses a Ki Smite. He still only adds his Charisma to the attack roll.
"unlocking" abilities and powers was an idea touched on in earthdawn.
In that system there are no healers and all magic items are pretty much that way because some great hero weiled them long ago. As you gain power you "tether" yourself to the weapon "accessing" more power of the item.
However if you picked up your chums weapon, it would just be a sword.
It's an intersting look at magic items.
Kinda like a paladin and holy avenger. If a rogue picks it up its a +2 longsword, if the pally has it its a whole lot more.
No reason why MORE items cant work just like a holy avenger and be class/birth right/level/ quest completed activated.
Coincidentally enough, in the Cathay sourcebook that I wrote for Earthdawn, among the new disciplines I created is the Samurai.
|
|
How can a sword become legendary if it is thrown away as soon as your level suggests you get a better one?
I think something like legacy items works best: The magical properties will only be "unlocked" when you have proven yourself sufficiently. And if you give the sword to someone else, it's just a sword.
i like this idea... Midnight has something similar called Covenant Items... weapons, armor,wondrous items... that 'unlock' powers as the PC grows in power (level up)
we arecurrently trying something similar in a couple of games.
i have always hated the idea that a PC is silly if he gets attached to a weaponat low levels. why? because its useless in the future... theconcept of the game is to get the next powerful item...
as with PCs is a planned obsolescense
"unlocking" abilities and powers was an idea touched on in earthdawn.
In that system there are no healers and all magic items are pretty much that way because some great hero weiled them long ago. As you gain power you "tether" yourself to the weapon "accessing" more power of the item.
However if you picked up your chums weapon, it would just be a sword.
It's an intersting look at magic items.
Kinda like a paladin and holy avenger. If a rogue picks it up its a +2 longsword, if the pally has it its a whole lot more.
No reason why MORE items cant work just like a holy avenger and be class/birth right/level/ quest completed activated.
If a thread weapon had to thread holes, then 2 people could actually use the same thread item.
It's a GREAT system!!! woo
Coincidentally enough, in the Cathay sourcebook that I wrote for Earthdawn, among the new disciplines I created is the Samurai.
"unlocking" abilities and powers was an idea touched on in earthdawn.
In that system there are no healers and all magic items are pretty much that way because some great hero weiled them long ago. As you gain power you "tether" yourself to the weapon "accessing" more power of the item.
However if you picked up your chums weapon, it would just be a sword.
It's an intersting look at magic items.
Kinda like a paladin and holy avenger. If a rogue picks it up its a +2 longsword, if the pally has it its a whole lot more.
No reason why MORE items cant work just like a holy avenger and be class/birth right/level/ quest completed activated.
OOOOOOO see, now I'm gonna have to figure out how to afford that, that's Earthdawn Classic right Hank?
PFRPG Samurai, I would add reflexes to the good list of saves, as they were very well trained in combat.
"unlocking" abilities and powers was an idea touched on in earthdawn.In that system there are no healers and all magic items are pretty much that way because some great hero weiled them long ago. As you gain power you "tether" yourself to the weapon "accessing" more power of the item.
However if you picked up your chums weapon, it would just be a sword.
It's an intersting look at magic items.
Kinda like a paladin and holy avenger. If a rogue picks it up its a +2 longsword, if the pally has it its a whole lot more.
No reason why MORE items cant work just like a holy avenger and be class/birth right/level/ quest completed activated.
As an interesting sideline - a DM could potentially give any sword that isn't brand-spanking-new additional backstory and, based on the history of previous wielders, include additional unknown powers that can be unlocked by the samurai's advancement. These would be freebies and so should probably be minor and, perhaps, not always be beneficial.
PFRPG Samurai, I would add reflexes to the good list of saves, as they were very well trained in combat.
I would even go further and would give them good saves in Fortitude, Reflex and Will, like the Monk.
|
|
That could be workable, they are paladin-like in that respect.I would even go further and would give them good saves in Fortitude, Reflex and Will, like the Monk.PFRPG Samurai, I would add reflexes to the good list of saves, as they were very well trained in combat.
ok... considering the monk has a low bab... how you would balance this class against the others?
because you are talking about
1) good saves
2) good bab
3) quite possibly 1d10 hps...
4) special abilities
so how to balance it and not make it so superior that the fighter is sent back to unliked or simple not interesting to play?
the way you are putting it... i would actually prefer the samurai as a Prestigue Class
ok... considering the monk has a low bab... how you would balance this class against the others?because you are talking about
1) good saves
2) good bab
3) quite possibly 1d10 hps...
4) special abilitiesso how to balance it and not make it so superior that the fighter is sent back to unliked or simple not interesting to play?
the way you are putting it... i would actually prefer the samurai as a Prestigue Class
You're right that good BAB, all good saves, good hit dice, good armor choices, and special abilities makes for a very powerful package. Probably too powerful and something should give. Personally, I see no reason for the Samurai's saves to be any different from the fighter's unless it's primarily to contrast the two classes. Perhaps Dex instead of Fort. Will? Probably not.
If i would give up something, that would be the Reflex, which would give him good saves in For and Will, like i give to Paladins.
But still, i wouldn't personally do that. The samurai is the epitome of the warrior.
It shouldn't be balanced, as it should shine from his excellence.
I don't believe in balance for classes. IMHO classes shouldn't be balanced, they should complete each other.
This being said, it is still balanced by the samurai major hindrance, which comes from his severe code of honor, and his duty towards his lord, things even more restrictive than the code of the paladin.
|
|
If i would give up something, that would be the Reflex, which would give him good saves in For and Will, like i give to Paladins.
But still, i wouldn't personally do that. The samurai is the epitome of the warrior.
so is the Fighter
also the Samurai is the epithome as fighting skills... he is good in what he does... and he is focused... he is not extraordinarily agil...fast yes... but he has no reason to have a good reflex...
good reflex is something for the kind of the ninja... the samurai is more of the kind that keeps walking and prefers to cut than jump aside...
It shouldn't be balanced, as it should shine from his excellence.
I don't believe in balance for classes. IMHO classes shouldn't be balanced, they should complete each other.
mmm ok I can understand this part... the problem is with this, even if the concept is differetn you are stepping in the toes of the paladin and maybe pushing the fighter away... the simple idea is... why would someone be a Fighter isntead of a Samurai?
ask yourself this... as a plyer you can do it... there is no difficulty, no class issues, no background, no nobility, no nothing that interpose between you and the samurai... then as in SW suddely most of the players are but a single class...
when everyone or a lot of people is a Samurai... its he still special?
This being said, it is still balanced by the samurai major hindrance, which comes from his severe code of honor, and his duty towards his lord, things even more restrictive than the code of the paladin.
some would say more restrictive, others would disagree... but some DM ignore this issues so you have only some flavor flaw versus lots of mechanical issues
unless of coruse you make it mechanical... like losing his abilities if he dishonors himself, cannot use other weapon but the one chosen by his clan, and similar details that will interesting in RP sometimes derail from the fun... sometimes
|
|
The design of the fighter is he is a martial character with the unique ability to focus all his feats toward whatever goal the player desires.
What defines a samurai to you? Are any of the traits that say "Samurai!" to you not obtainable as a feat? If so, do these abilities need to be given to the character through a separate class? Or can they be simulated well enough through the fighter class that Kenji (LN Human Fighter 20) encapsulates all that it means to be the iconic Samurai?
It's easy to get caught up in class names...if I want a dextrous fighter, I may end up building a character with ranger, rogue or fighter levels. It all depends on what I want my character to be able to do. A class name is just a class name.
Why does a Samurai have to have it's own base class?
When I ran OA before the book was out we just used the base classes with different Flavor. Our Samurai was a Paladin. had a special Bow instead of sword and fought from horse back, his Paladin warhorse.
Does he have to? No. But I do think that the samurai class from 1e OA and from 3e OA has enough of its own character to differentiate it from the D&D standard fighter. So while you don't have to do it, I believe it enriches the game to do so.
|
|
If i would give up something, that would be the Reflex, which would give him good saves in For and Will, like i give to Paladins.
But still, i wouldn't personally do that. The samurai is the epitome of the warrior.so is the Fighter
also the Samurai is the epithome as fighting skills... he is good in what he does... and he is focused... he is not extraordinarily agil...fast yes... but he has no reason to have a good reflex...
good reflex is something for the kind of the ninja... the samurai is more of the kind that keeps walking and prefers to cut than jump aside...
It shouldn't be balanced, as it should shine from his excellence.
I don't believe in balance for classes. IMHO classes shouldn't be balanced, they should complete each other.mmm ok I can understand this part... the problem is with this, even if the concept is differetn you are stepping in the toes of the paladin and maybe pushing the fighter away... the simple idea is... why would someone be a Fighter isntead of a Samurai?
ask yourself this... as a plyer you can do it... there is no difficulty, no class issues, no background, no nobility, no nothing that interpose between you and the samurai... then as in SW suddely most of the players are but a single class...
when everyone or a lot of people is a Samurai... its he still special?
This being said, it is still balanced by the samurai major hindrance, which comes from his severe code of honor, and his duty towards his lord, things even more restrictive than the code of the paladin.some would say more restrictive, others would disagree... but some DM ignore this issues so you have only some flavor flaw versus lots of mechanical issues
unless of coruse you make it mechanical... like losing his abilities if he dishonors himself, cannot use other weapon but the one chosen by his clan, and similar details that will interesting in RP sometimes derail from the fun... sometimes
Ninja is evasion and improved evasion, uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge, I still think a samurai would have good reflexes...
A strict set of codes would be enforced, other wise loss of Samurai related class abilities would be lost and you'd become a Bushi (fighter)
|
|
Why does a Samurai have to have it's own base class?
When I ran OA before the book was out we just used the base classes with different Flavor. Our Samurai was a Paladin. had a special Bow instead of sword and fought from horse back, his Paladin warhorse.
While I am a fan of OA and Rokugan 3e, I concur. If anyone recalls, when 3e was initially released, it was touted as having a class for every character concept. Occasionally, you'd see publishers, like Paizo, tackle this notion by adding variants (and flavor) to the core classes.
I really hope that Paizo doesn't go the route of inventing new classes, but designing variants for the pre-existing ones. Perhaps the only real exception to this notion is psionics. For psionics, refine or tweak the classes in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
|
|
Why does a Samurai have to have it's own base class?
When I ran OA before the book was out we just used the base classes with different Flavor. Our Samurai was a Paladin. had a special Bow instead of sword and fought from horse back, his Paladin warhorse.
While I am a fan of OA and Rokugan 3e, I concur. If anyone recalls, when 3e was initially released, it was touted as having a class for every character concept. Occasionally, you'd see publishers, like Paizo, tackle this notion by adding variants (and flavor) to the core classes.
I really hope that Paizo doesn't go the route of inventing new classes, but designing variants for the pre-existing ones. Perhaps the only real exception to this notion is psionics. For psionics, refine or tweak the classes in the Expanded Psionics Handbook.
actually i agree
Samurai is nothing but a title, as Knightyou can make variants or rpestigue classes, i rather prefer this...
a samurai need feats for his katana and discipline: weapon focus, quick draw, iron will, etc
OOOOOOO see, now I'm gonna have to figure out how to afford that, that's Earthdawn Classic right Hank?
Yep!
This was a problem with 1st Ed. AD&D and 3.x D&D: developing classes for roles that could be covered by the core ones. 2nd Ed. AD&D used "kits" instead of separate classes, but even then there was a power creep that started to make the kit more important than the class when it came to "class abilities."
The core rules (and PFRPG) do a very good job of covering most concepts and roles, especially when using variants, feats, and possibly prestige classes. A samurai is nothing more than a fighter or fighter variant. Actually, as a social caste, it's probably closer to the NPC aristocrat class; not all historical samurai were highly skilled combatants! The "ancestral weapon" rules can easily be cribbed from the 3.0 Oriental Adventures (or even from the Book of Exalted Deeds with minimal alteration of the Ancestral Relic feat).
|
PIAO SHIH TEMPLATE
THE CARAVAN GUARD
Ability Requirements
ALL ABILITIES >11
STRENGTH or DEXTERITY >14
WISDOM or CHARISMA >14
Alignment Requirements
ANY LAWFUL or ANY GOOD Alignment (LAWFUL EVIL RESTRICTED TO EVIL GOVERNMENTS)
Class Requirements
PREFERED: RANGER/MONK Multiclass
ACCEPTABLE: ANY MULTICLASS WITH HD TYPE D8
Weapon/Armour Requirements
WEAPON: ANY (POISON only if LAWFUL EVIL), INITIALLY: Dart
ARMOUR: ANY, INITIALLY: Leather, Studded Leather, Padded Leather
Starting Wealth Requirements
Wealth Range 11-50 sp
Skills/Feats Requirements
REQUIRED SKILLS: Tracking, Leadership, Diplomacy, Unarmed Combat, Climb, Languages, Mounted Combat, Swim, and Weapon Mastery (other than Dart).
All you need is to go through the books and strip down "exotic" classes that best suit your campaign and build a cultural class template you can lay over the core classes.
|
|
SAMUARI TEMPLATE
THE NOBLE WARRIOR
Ability Requirements
DEXTERITY >15
Alignment Requirements
PREFERED: ANY NEUTRAL
ACCEPTABLE: ANY
Class Requirements
PREFERED: ROGUE/MONK MULTICLASS
ACCEPTABLE: ANY CAPABLE OF USING BOTH DAISHO, YUMI, AND UNARMED COMBAT(Judo)
Weapon/Armour Requirements
WEAPON: Determined by Status at beginning of Campaign
ARMOUR: ANY, INITIALLY: None
Starting Wealth Requirements
ACTIVE HOUSE- Minimum Value Daisho, Yumi + Coin
DISPERSED/DESTROYED HOUSE- None or Any Value Daisho with No Coin or Armor and Outcast Social Standing
Skills/Feats Requirements
REQUIRED SKILLS: Leadership, Diplomacy, Unarmed Combat, Languages, Mounted Combat, and Weapon Mastery (Daiso & Yumi).
|
|
How can a sword become legendary if it is thrown away as soon as your level suggests you get a better one?
Thrown away? You continue to make up stuff I didn't say to reduce what I did say to absurdity, so that you can mock the absurdity you proposed. It's disingenuous and makes me cranky. Go be a jerk to someone else.
|
|
The first samurai used bows and naginata.
IIRC, early Samurai were said to follow the Way of the Horse and the Bow, and were, like the English longbowmen, not regarded as swordsmen so much as consummate archers. But, from a gaming perspective, the Samurai is now pretty much defined by the katana and wakizashi, and it makes sense to go with that, while allowing the freedom for *some* Samurai to specialize in the naginata, yari, yumi, no-dachi or whatever (which the CW Samurai really doesn't do, assuming that every Samurai follows the cookie-cutter TWF katana / wakizashi track).
The sword was seen as a status symbol, as much as a weapon, particularly since the lower classes weren't supposed to be carrying them at all, and swords of fine make were regularly given as gifts from lord to retainer, to mark special achievements.
This would make a fine 'trading up' mechanic, for someone who wants to include the social ties that traditionally defined the role, as the Samurai who has won some great acclaim (by 'leveling up,' although it would be more thematic for the 'leveling up' process to be role-played as less mechanical and more story-based, so that the Samurai isn't said to be given the new sword because he 'made 8th level,' but because he's 'The Hero of Kanyo Pass, who held off the Thousand Screaming Red Oni' or whatever, conveniently ignoring the quibbly detail that some lesser ranked allies helped him out in that task...) could receive a sword of particular make or historical significance to his lord's house, while his current weapon would be bestowed upon one of the lower ranking Samurai (or held by the daimyo until one of the lower ranking Samurai reached the 'level of acclaim' where the daimyo feels that he is now worthy of bearing such a blade).
Since there would be, in a Japanese-themed campaign, *thousands* of Samurai classed individuals running around, serving dozens of different lords (or Houses, in Rokugan), it wouldn't fit as well for them to all be mystically empowering their weapons themselves, IMO, so much as being awarded them by their lords, along with the other signs of their increasing status. Allowing a Samurai to PrC into Kensai, or some sword-saint variation, would also allow for the occasional Musashi sort of individual to show up, without there being *thousands* of Musashi's running around.
Of course, the line between someone of Samurai 'class' and someone of Samurai *status* should probably be drawn somewhere. In less 'frontier-sy' areas, a lord might be served by a dozen Samurai who have most of their levels in Aristocrat, and go to moon-viewing parties and write poetry and swagger around the city carrying official documents and whatnot, and spend less time fighting Oni, bargaining with dragons or supressing peasant rebellions.
|
|
NINJA TEMPLATE
THE INVISIBLE GUILD
Ability Requirements
INTELLIGENCE >15
ALL OTHER ABILITIES >11
Alignment Requirements
NEUTRAL
Optional: Any Neutral
Class Requirements
PREFERED: ROGUE/MONK Multiclass
ACCEPTABLE: Any ROGUE Multiclass Capable of Fitting Template
Weapon/Armour Requirements
SKILLED IN ALL CULTURAL WEAPONS: Begin with any two of these: Ninja-to, Kursari-gami, Metsibushi, Hankyu, Shinobi zue, Tetsu bishi, Shruiken, + One Weapon Consistent with Disguise.
Higher levels-Nage Teppo, Sode Tsutsu, Kakae ozutsu;
ARMOUR: Only as Disguise
DISGUISES Initial (Single Core Class from Multiclassing-ROGUE/MONK may choose Rogue or Monk)
Second Class Disguise (Other Class from Multiclass), NPC Classes by Social Rank (Peasant, Specialist, Warrior, Adept, Aristocrat)
Starting Wealth Requirements
Wealth Range: None
Skills/Feats Requirements
REQUIRED SKILLS: Acrobatics, Disguise, Intimidate, Craft (Alchemy/Poison), Disable Device, Escape Artist, Knowledge (Nature-Natural Poisons,Satten-Jitsu, Sacchi-Jitsu), Linguistics, Perception, Perform or Profession (According to disguise), Sense Motive (Santsun-Jitsu), Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Weapon Mastery ( Trained in all Cultural Weapons), Concentration (Kuji-Kiri), Listen, Jump, Tracking
FEATS: Any that enhances a Required Skill or Disguise
|
|
Set you put it in interesting words, but also in Samurai Lore some Samurais were as famous for their deeds as for the weapon they used...
i agree that the daimyo would give them their sword... or they may forge it... or ask for a master crafter to do it. I see this weapons growing in the hands of their master more than a fixed bonus... why? because the weapon is made legendary by the samurai actions... they become that and i feel its mroe appropiate in the feeling of the class... and society
still a ritual blessing to awaken the powers sounds right here... Oriental Adventures does it kind of neat
still in an Oriental Campaign most 'samurais' would be warriors & aristocrats with titles... the true samurai is as strange as a fighter in a warrior dominated culture, or even rarer... true samurais are something special to behold.
still its different to decide... a PrC sounds appropiate, a variant class for the fighter or the paladin... also sounds apporpiate...
if someone wants a clase, clean and new it can be done... and while not 100% balanced there is the need of a certain sort of balance and not make a super class (like the jedi) for... what foun would have characters of other classes or who would not want to be a Samurai then?
Maybe we should take some pages from d20 Modern, and include "starting occupations" and "allegiances" instead of alignments.
Samurai might be:
Requirements:
Age 18+
Primary Allegiance to daimyo.
Benefits:
Choose 2 of the following as bonus class skills.
Appraisal, Craft, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge nobility, Perform, Ride.
Choose one of the following as a bonus feat.
Exotic Weapon Proficiency katana (bastard sword), Improved Initiative, Martial Weapon Proficiency (composite longbow), Mounted Combat, Quickdraw.
Begin equipped with a masterwork katana (bastard sword), wakizashi (shortsword), or composite longbow (daikyu).
|
|
Maybe we should take some pages from d20 Modern, and include "starting occupations" and "allegiances" instead of alignments.
Interesting that you suggest this, because this is exactly what exists as a house rule in my D&D campaign. Or rather, players have the choice at first level to take either 2 traits or 1 occupation. And allegiances and alignment overlap.
Returning to my previous remark, let me again hail Paizo:
For any future development regarding classes - please don't make or revise classes (with the exception of psions). Rather, add variants to pre-existing classes.
in Samurai Lore some Samurais were as famous for their deeds as for the weapon they used...
i agree that the daimyo would give them their sword... or they may forge it... or ask for a master crafter to do it. I see this weapons growing in the hands of their master more than a fixed bonus... why? because the weapon is made legendary by the samurai actions... they become that and i feel its mroe appropiate in the feeling of the class... and society
still a ritual blessing to awaken the powers sounds right here... Oriental Adventures does it kind of neat
Exactly.
At your gempukku, you are given your sword. You will make that sword legendary.
In some very special occations, you might be gifted with a legendary clan's sword, or go on a special quest to retrieve a great blade.
But you definetly won't get a new sword every two weeks. And no amount of namecalling will change that.
if someone wants a clase
I think I do. As I said, we have extra classes for rangers, paladins and barbarians - you could just have warriors and feats for the stuff.
But D&D is about archetypes.
And while I generally don't want 100 classes to have one for every character concepts, I do think the Samurai is different enough from both fighters and paladins to warrant its own class.
Samurai, especially those depicted in OA and Rokugan, aren't just fighters, but they're not paladins with their supernatural, god-given powers.
And remember that D&D is mostly about western fantasy, and I think that some concepts need more than a variant base class to fit eastern fantasy.
I think I'm going to leave the Shugenja class alone for the most part. I'm just going to drop the elemental focus ability for two domains one of which has to be of their chosen element. I will then divvy up the other domains by clan values ie.. Scorpion Trickery, Lion Glory.
I just wanted to say I think you're good to go here. The Shugenja, from what I've seen with it being played, is a rather strong class - the power is in its amazingly nice spell list, the best of wizard and cleric and druid, with some extra cool spells as well. Not everything of course, but very nice selections (my prime example is Heal + Disintegrate + Haste).
I don't see a reason to drop elemental focus, but it's your game :)