Escape from Old Korvosa ended up in a battle between Bahor and Vimanda (see the obituary thread if you want to know how it came out). I'm wondering though if I played out the battle between these two correctly.
Both are armed with weapons that can't get past the DR, right? They have spells, but can't get past SR. Vimanda has area attacks, but Bahor's evasion nerfs that.
They do have natural weapons. I seem to recall (but can't find) a rule where a creature's natural attacks bypass the DR of the same type? So the only way these two can hurt each other is to use the natural attacks?
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My players hated the battle as well. They were using power attack on the other R's to get past DR. But Bahor's AC is so high, that power attack can't hit him. And thus the damage is too low for the DR. His SR is too high for any spell, and evasion saves him from any area attack. He's next to impossible to damage.
Escape from Old Korvosa ended up in a battle between Bahor and Vimanda (see the obituary thread if you want to know how it came out). I'm wondering though if I played out the battle between these two correctly.
Both are armed with weapons that can't get past the DR, right? They have spells, but can't get past SR. Vimanda has area attacks, but Bahor's evasion nerfs that.
They do have natural weapons. I seem to recall (but can't find) a rule where a creature's natural attacks bypass the DR of the same type? So the only way these two can hurt each other is to use the natural attacks?
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My players hated the battle as well. They were using power attack on the other R's to get past DR. But Bahor's AC is so high, that power attack can't hit him. And thus the damage is too low for the DR. His SR is too high for any spell, and evasion saves him from any area attack. He's next to impossible to damage.
[rant]
That's the whole point about Bahor - the characters are not SUPPOSED to throw down with him, or any of the rest besides Vimanda. The SR assigned to their stat-blocks is incorrect [according to the MM], but it is not the biggest deal. Rakshasa are "glass jaw" bad guys - you bop off a 1st level cleric spell on the main piercing weapons of the party and wipe them out. Have the arcane casters prep non-SR spells - they can be dealt with violently - not easily, and about impossible 'off the cuff', but it can be done even at the level the characters first encounter them.
The intent is to get the characters into the dungeon, rescue the two chowderheads and rub out Vimanda, then get sent on their way with Bahor's nominal blessing & on with the rest of the AP. Yes, they are hard to hit - aid other actions to add +2 per PC to attack rolls works plenty fine. Guidance spells work well too. Bless spells, Prayer spells - there are plenty of ways to ramp up attack bonuses with preparation. The idea is that they are not supposed to be easy nor a fair fight under the scripted circumstances - but Bahor, desirous of his sister's messy demise, is certainly willing to let the character's rest up or whatever before sending them downstairs. Uppity characters get turned into dinner entrees and "playthings"... the two characters left behind can form the nucleus of a new character group, owing serious debt of life to the Arkonas and tasked with picking up the mess...
However, as many groups seem to wind up throwing down with the Rakshasa clan - well, wipe 'em out. They've been posing as an entire clan of nobility for about a century - they should not be easy nor "level appropriate", if anything, they should be much harder than scripted. IMO and YMMV of course - as long as the AP can continue without too much trouble, the players need a reminder some times that there are NASTY bad guys out there. Some times starting a fight is a Bad Idea...
[/rant]
>> as long as the AP can continue without too much trouble
Kind of hard to continue when half the party gets wiped out.
I suck at looking at a stat block and telling how a battle would go. When James mentioned on the forums that the PCs aren't really meant to fight Bahor, I should have taken that as a big warning sign I guess.
>> as long as the AP can continue without too much trouble
Kind of hard to continue when half the party gets wiped out.
I suck at looking at a stat block and telling how a battle would go. When James mentioned on the forums that the PCs aren't really meant to fight Bahor, I should have taken that as a big warning sign I guess.
Yeah, I can see your perspective on the matter. When I ran it, I didn't even look at his stat block - I was running "as intended" when my players went all kinds of sideways. Paladin fired off a detect evil, got stunned for his trouble, the Ranger attempted to drill Bahor full of arrows and the smack down started. My group had the sense to run once it was clear they were in over their heads - but even then they held their own, not really breaking until the rest of the clan came down the hallway getting ready to unlimber a massed volley of lightning bolts. I didn't really realize what a hornet's nest they had kicked until after they kicked it.
Personally, I love it when there are NPCs around that are "not level appropriate". They are often the movers and shakers - but now and again they're also the wild-haired hermit in the wilderness, the quiet dude that's always hanging out in the inn (or the grim silent chap tending bar ... or the serving wench with a smoke hanging out of her lips ... or the mascot ...) or the like. Some times a character will mouth off, and most of those times they'll get away with it, circumstances depending of course. Now and again though, they should get a Boot to the Head.
>> as long as the AP can continue without too much trouble
Kind of hard to continue when half the party gets wiped out.
I suck at looking at a stat block and telling how a battle would go. When James mentioned on the forums that the PCs aren't really meant to fight Bahor, I should have taken that as a big warning sign I guess.
Yeah, I can see your perspective on the matter. When I ran it, I didn't even look at his stat block - I was running "as intended" when my players went all kinds of sideways. Paladin fired off a detect evil, got stunned for his trouble, the Ranger attempted to drill Bahor full of arrows and the smack down started. My group had the sense to run once it was clear they were in over their heads - but even then they held their own, not really breaking until the rest of the clan came down the hallway getting ready to unlimber a massed volley of lightning bolts. I didn't really realize what a hornet's nest they had kicked until after they kicked it.
Personally, I love it when there are NPCs around that are "not level appropriate". They are often the movers and shakers - but now and again they're also the wild-haired hermit in the wilderness, the quiet dude that's always hanging out in the inn (or the grim silent chap tending bar ... or the serving wench with a smoke hanging out of her lips ... or the mascot ...) or the like. Some times a character will mouth off, and most of those times they'll get away with it, circumstances depending of course. Now and again though, they should get a Boot to the Head.
The good thing about having a party that is not purely good is that they don't automatically attack anything that is evil. My party is about to go through this and I imagine that they will not like dealing with Glorio, but they will have no reason to not take him at his word. With his DR & SR he is a tough fight if you use his abilities properly. I guess I would wonder why a party would start attacking Glorio in the first place. It shouldn't be on the basis that he is evil, there are Temples to Asmodeus in the town for example and all sorts of LE people who live in the town that you can't just attack whenever you feel like it...
The question I'm asking is:
if the party attack Bahor but on his human form, has he got the same stat block (AC, HP, and so on..)?
The question I'm asking is:
if the party attack Bahor but on his human form, has he got the same stat block (AC, HP, and so on..)?
Yes, because the human form is an illusion. He's always a Rakshasa underneath :)
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The question I'm asking is:
if the party attack Bahor but on his human form, has he got the same stat block (AC, HP, and so on..)?
The basic answer is "yes" (except for movement and natural weapons). Read the description of "Change Shape" for details:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#changeShape
^_^ Yup, messing with Rakshasa is dangerous business - you get a free standard action once you disarm them for them to change back to rakshasa and sprout claws and teeth, that's about it.
On fact is, if my party goes to visit Bahor after killing the "emporro of Old Korvosa". Bahor would receive them in the visitor's lounge and not in his bath, but in that case, thez'll make some diplomacy with him and at no moment the Arkona's palace will be under alert, so, considering that Bahor would give to the PC the solution to enter to the labyrinth, will the four Rakshasas after all attack the party?
On fact is, if my party goes to visit Bahor after killing the "emporro of Old Korvosa". Bahor would receive them in the visitor's lounge and not in his bath, but in that case, thez'll make some diplomacy with him and at no moment the Arkona's palace will be under alert, so, considering that Bahor would give to the PC the solution to enter to the labyrinth, will the four Rakshasas after all attack the party?
It really REALLY depends on their attitude IMO.
You talk smack to nobility, especially these guys, they kill you horribly then animate your remains into their undead servitors and send you back out to do what they want you to do.
It really REALLY depends on their attitude IMO.
If Bahor tells to the PC the way to enter into the secret labyrinth, why would he ask to his servents to kill the PC, knowing that he wish that they kill Vimanda. If he uses his servents, OK its XP for PC but a great risk to kill them, don't you think?
If Bahor tells to the PC the way to enter into the secret labyrinth, why would he ask to his servents to kill the PC, knowing that he wish that they kill Vimanda. If he uses his servents, OK its XP for PC but a great risk to kill them, don't you think?It really REALLY depends on their attitude IMO.
I meant about the player characters' attitudes towards the Arkonas. :)
I meant about the player characters' attitudes towards the Arkonas. :)
Of course, but knowing my party, they'll discuss with Bahor and not searching to kill him (they can't in fact) so they'll have the information and the question still remain. Is Bahor going to tell to his servants to kill my party after all?
Of course, but knowing my party, they'll discuss with Bahor and not searching to kill him (they can't in fact) so they'll have the information and the question still remain. Is Bahor going to tell to his servants to kill my party after all?I meant about the player characters' attitudes towards the Arkonas. :)
If they give him no alternative, of course he will.
They can do subdual / nonlethal damage if you permit them to. Beat them and blast them unconscious, strip them to the "essentials" (your discretion as the GM) and toss them in the middle of the dungeon to deal with Vimanda and the sphinx.
In fact, i’m thinking of a fact : when the party will meet Vimanda under the look of Vencarlo. Have they a way to notice that it’s not Vencarlo other than roleplay? I want to mean that if they haven’t got a Will throw or something else and that they won’t ask the good questions and that I’m to good in my role, they’ll leave with Vimanda/vencarlo the labyrinth and fight against Bahor. Of course, I know that if this encounter arrive, Bahor will tell the truth to the PC in order to make them choose his side, but it’s going to be time consuming.
In fact, i’m thinking of a fact : when the party will meet Vimanda under the look of Vencarlo. Have they a way to notice that it’s not Vencarlo other than roleplay? I want to mean that if they haven’t got a Will throw or something else and that they won’t ask the good questions and that I’m to good in my role, they’ll leave with Vimanda/vencarlo the labyrinth and fight against Bahor. Of course, I know that if this encounter arrive, Bahor will tell the truth to the PC in order to make them choose his side, but it’s going to be time consuming.
The PCs get a chance to see through Vimanda's disguise. If she's reading minds though, it's a pretty high check.
This is exactly what I did in my campaign. Fighting Bahor was a near TPK for them. I'd be careful.
The PCs get a chance to see through Vimanda's disguise. If she's reading minds though, it's a pretty high check.
In fact, I suppose that there's a "perception check" against her "disguise" but under the appearance of Vencarlo, what is the bonus for her disguise? A lot I suppose? In fact, a thing that I wish is that my PC will be clever and in asking some personal questions they'll find that it's not Vencarlo...
When I ran it I had one of the pc's notice (dc 20 spot check) that the two smaller fingers on the fakes right hand were moving (which if a pc made the spot check when they first meet the real Vencarlo they know those two fingers cant.)
Great idea for the finger!!!!!!!!
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We caught on to Vimanda when she started moving a little bit too fast for Vencarlo. In the end though we forced her to surrender and have now sided with her, we didn't like Bahor tricking us to kill her (and she didn't care much for it either). So she's escaped to Harse with us and we're going to go deal with Bahor later.
We're also gonna slip a helm of opposite alignment onto her while she sleeps and put her on the throne after we depose the Queen, but that's another story...
I am switching my campaign over to 4E, and the party is going to be heading in to visit the Arkonas tomorrow.
Some thoughts I have:
- This adventure seems like it could be really short. There is a ton of space in the book devoted to the Arkona Palace, but, if the adventure plays out as written, the party will never fight Bahor or the other 4 rakshasa's up in the palace, and probably not the one down below hanging out with his snakes.
- I see the only encounters being the fungus janni soldier thingies, Vimanda, the Beatific One, and Sivis... not much for a 4E style adventure. I need to do some thinking on how to beef this up some.
- I'd really like to send the 4 rakshasas after the party, but I don't want them to make enemies with Bahor yet... but if they're just "cousins" from Vudra, maybe Bahor wouldn't mind if a few of them died in a battle with the PCs...
- Maybe the party can come back to visit the Arkonas sometime later. I think I'll do as Turin has and make them a pretty high level and have them run into the Arkonas later in the adventure path, possibly after dealing with Ileosa.
OK, I re-read the Vivified Labyrinth last night, and I guess there *is* a heck of a lot going on in it, just mostly a LOT of traps. I'm going to really have to pull out the stops in converting this. But, it should be fun.
My PCs approached the meeting with the Arkonas in a pretty unique way, I think.
Knowing the Arkonas are underworld criminals and the palace was at the top of a cliff, they just assumed that there would be a smuggler's entrance, so they found it, went in, and killed the Reefclaw (I'm running this as 4E, so I made it an Elite Chuul with extra poisoning abilities.)
Then, they went and met the Rakshasa with the cobras, with whom they parleyed. The dumb dwarf spilled his guts... that they were there to find Neolandus. The sneaky rogue just about blew a gasket, getting pissed at the dwarf for spilling his guts... but it worked out perfectly. The Rakshasa suggested they talk to Glorio. So they did, and he sent them down into the Labyrinth. (We have a new player who is a bit of an archeaologist... and so I had it that he had been petitioning to visit the Labyrinth to find some ancient item of power that was rumored to be there, worked great, another person to help the party kill Vimanda.)
So, the rakshasha snake master dude (can't remember his name) took them back down and sent them into the labyrinth.
Where the rogue promptly walked into the first rotating room and pulled the level and rotated away. Then, she went into the next room and pulled that lever and rotated away. Then, the rest of the party went into the "Good" pool room and got rotated away...
To avoid the complications, I let them keep rotating to eventually get back together again, probably 12 to 15 rotations. I probably should have started throwing stuff at them... but it was just going to be too big of a pain in the butt.
So, then, while fighting the blood cobra, I had Vimanda come up behind the party dressed as Vencarlo. They pretty much were suspicious immediately. And they kept asking questions that she had no way of answering. Like, "Hey, Blackjack, we found your rapier... where'd we find it... if you're really Vencarlo, you'll know." I had her just say, "Well, obviously, you're testing me, we all know I'm not Blackjack." I thought that was good. But, eventually, they just got so suspicious, I had one of them notice the fingers. So, then I had her turn back to Meliya and try to get them to join her against Bahor. They would have none of it. So, finally, battle ensued. I had given her some armor that lets her go insubstantial once a day, so I had her run when she was down to about 15% of her hit points. She'll be back, though, and will try to kill them off.
I made Vimanda a Level 14 Elite Skirmisher (the party is Level 9). I had to reduce her defenses a little, though, otherwise she would probably have wiped up the party. As it was, it was a pretty knockdown dragout fight. I gave her the powers of a 9th level monk and 6th level wizard (all thunder and lightning powers), with the wizard powers all useable as minor actions. She is pretty nasty. If there hadn't been 5 party members, she might have killed them. As it was, they got her down from 288 to about 32 hit points and she fled.
All in all, a pretty fun battle. Although the battlefield was a little small for her to really use all of her movement and push and pull powers to full effect.
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I've been having some fun with this one with my players. Although, now that I've started really looking closely at Bahor's stats... wow, I think even my band of ubercharacters might have trouble with this one. ;)
In any case, I had Eries Yelloweyes actually be Vimanda. She's been sort of following them along (thanks to her little friend) and helping at various points where it was needed. She favours one of the characters over the others (half the party are lawful-good nutjobs - a paladin and a priest of Torag), and he's the one with which she always made contact (had her just appear out of nowhere from behind a building at Trail's End whenever he showed up). Now that they've horrifically butchered Sivit, I had Eries hanging from the other set of shackles in the throne room beside Vencarlo. She opted to reveal herself as a rakshasa and proceeded to convince the party that Bahor was the greater threat and they should work together to dethrone him as head of the family (it helped that she told them he sent them down here for her to kill them).
I don't know how it's going to happen, but it will be gory I think. We'll find out tonight as they're on their way back up from the labyrinth (with which we had great fun once they got separated - I had the map all printed out and was actually spinning the pieces as they pulled levers. Some of them actually ended up totally trapped at one point, just waiting for the other group to pull another lever so they could get out.)
Anyhow, just Pathfinderizing Bahor and Vimanda now in anticipation of something truly scary for tonight's session. :) With Bahor as truly overpowering and nigh untouchable as he is he might just toy with them until he can convince them that Vimanda has lied to them and that they should actually finish her off and be on their way (likely to come back when they're about 15th level and try again, of course... but for now... :)
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Yah... so it turns out that my lawful good Paladin and my lawful good Cleric of Torag are not willing to go against the deal they made with Vimanda (that they kill Bahor in return for the safe release of Neolandus, Vencarlo, and their lives are spared by her) and as such they will both likely die at the hands of Bahor tonight. Last week they were given ample opportunities to surrender or to turn on Vimanda, but they constantly refused. I had the straight-up Rakshasas pop out (since they all knew what was coming up the stairs from the Vivified Labyrinth)... having a group of 7th level sorcerers around can really dish out a lot of damage in a round (Scorching Rays and Lightning Bolts everywhere!). Especially when they focus on one character...
Anyway, perhaps their new characters will be more... morally ambiguous? :)
I actually tricked out Bahor a little differently... I chose a bunch of Swift and Immediate spells for him so he could really do some craziness in melee (which is a little different than his writeup says, but I've found that the module writers for Paizo seem to think that a spellcaster is going to have several rounds of spell use before the characters are on top of him... it NEVER works that way, guys, so stop assuming it does...). His first spell cast: Persistent Blade. It can provide a flank partner for him, while its damage is near negligible. Very nice spell for a Sorcerer/Rogue.
Anyway... the interplay between Vimanda and Bahor has been such that they haven't faced off against each other directly - both were trying to use the characters to do in the other.
Well, creative players will find it REAL difficult to take on the entire Arkonas clan when they are prepared to defend themselves - and with the prolific scattering of eyeballs throughout the complex, odds are Bahor will know when they're coming - and be able to act and place his mini-onions accordingly.
Six or seven 7d6 lightning bolts is going to ruin the players' day if they are caught with their britches down ...
Wipe out the stubborn, then let the replacement PCs be captured pukes in the bowels of the dungeon (sans gear that they have to acquire from elsewhere therein) that have to be healed up to be much more than glorified porters. :)
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So as it turns out I managed to take the Paladin to about -7 (I am an out-in-the-open DM... my dice hit the table where everyone can see them) without having foreknowledge of how many hit points he had left - so no accusations of pulling punches or of fudging for extra damage.
When the Paladin went down the others gave their head a shake and actually took Bahor's final offer of "collecting the corpse" and leaving his home immediately (not to mention they had kicked the living snot out of Bahor - PRPG Paladins are stupid... but I'll go find the appropriate forum for that particular gripe). The cleric gave it some thought and decided that as long as they had Neolandus and Vencarlo safely out of there that the mission was a success and agreed, stepping forward to stop the Paladin from bleeding out. Vimanda was, of course, gone when they turned around to look for her, having now broken their bargain with her. She'll be back, somewhere - not sure where, yet, but she won't be happy with the party when she finds them again. :)
The Paladin was most disgusted with his failure when he woke up - good roleplaying all around and I'm happy to see that.
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How did you folks handle the levels below Arkona Palace? There's one room (area 24) that has an Arkona in it --
I'm not sure about it. On the one hand, he would be most effective that way. On the other hand, I'm not sure I want the party to know that there are creatures of that type involved...