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Would it be possible to have some guidance on adapting non-OGL prestige classes?
Prestige classes have been a bit of a headache in my campaign during the Beta. With the changes to several base classes' abilities and mechanics, it's much harder to determine how these changes interact with some prestige classes.
This has been a particular problem with Wizards. Do Wizards get their 8th level specialist bonus ability if they enter a prestige class at 8th level? Do they get get their new bonus spells as they rise in prestige level (the class description implies it is tied to Wizard level versus caster level).
Clerical domains have been another problem area. Similar to specialist bonus abilities, do the domain abilities improve when the Cleric increases a prestige class level? What about prestige classes that grant a new domain? Does the domain start at level one, or does it combine with the Cleric's existing clerical levels to determine what the Cleric can do with the domain?
I singled out spellcaster friendly prestige classes, since these seem to have so many prestige classes, and have base classes with some of the more extensive mechanical changes. Barbarians and Paladins have several mechanical changes, but friendly prestige classes are a bit fewer.
Strangely enough, Bards don't seem to have this problem. Almost all, if not all, Bard friendly prestige classes have a line indicating the prestige classes levels stack for determining access to bardic music abilities. Go figure.
Thanks for reading. Any thoughts?
Would it be possible to have some guidance on adapting non-OGL prestige classes?
Prestige classes have been a bit of a headache in my campaign during the Beta. With the changes to several base classes' abilities and mechanics, it's much harder to determine how these changes interact with some prestige classes.
Unfortunately this is a really tall order to fill with "generalizations." Also as it isn't OGL material I don't think we will ever see any sort of "official ruling" from Paizo on what to do outside of the make the BAB and HD conform and a few other tweaks that are already in the book. I think the best thing to do is try and keep to the spirit of what PFRPG is trying to accomplish when you decide what changes to make.
This has been a particular problem with Wizards. Do Wizards get their 8th level specialist bonus ability if they enter a prestige class at 8th level? Do they get get their new bonus spells as they rise in prestige level (the class description implies it is tied to Wizard level versus caster level).
Pathfinder/Paizo has stated one of the design goals was to make the core classes more attractive to play. Also they have dumped several of the core PrC's that were basically extensions of the core casters (which I didn't agree with but I understand why they did it). With that trend established I would comfortably say no the wizards don't get their specialist abilities, if they did you get into the same issue you had before - why not PrC into another class and get more benefits on top of the ones you get from the class? As for the learning spells, I'm not with my books but I think most PrC's say that they learn spells as XXXXX class when they level, so I don't think that is too much of an issue.
Clerical domains have been another problem area. Similar to specialist bonus abilities, do the domain abilities improve when the Cleric increases a prestige class level? What about prestige classes that grant a new domain? Does the domain start at level one, or does it combine with the Cleric's existing clerical levels to determine what the Cleric can do with the domain?
This one is a little more tricky, for the reasons I mentioned before I would have to say no they don't stack with a PrC level. As for the ones that grant domains, I would almost say you'd want to keep track of them individually. Cleric levels apply only to the cleric domains and the new granted domain powers are determined by the level of the PrC that granted it. It is definitely more book keeping but it still keeps you from getting all the goodies from the core class and double dipping into another PrC and getting even more on top of that for no real cost. Again this seems to be the type of thing PFRPG is trying to stop.
I singled out spellcaster friendly prestige classes, since these seem to have so many prestige classes, and have base classes with some of the more extensive mechanical changes. Barbarians and Paladins have several mechanical changes, but friendly prestige classes are a bit fewer.
Melee classes would be expected to be easier, they usually were getting abilities or expanding on what they already had and as such the class abilities were detailed in the PrC. The CMB change would just mean most bonuses for those types of actions would be lowered appropriately (probably half would be a safe bet). The Rage point mechanic would probably be the hardest and with the posts on the mechanic and how they came up with the mechanic/how it works, I believe it is a pretty straight forward fix (IE classes that grant rage still accumulate rage points the same way a barbarian of that level would).
Strangely enough, Bards don't seem to have this problem. Almost all, if not all, Bard friendly prestige classes have a line indicating the prestige classes levels stack for determining access to bardic music abilities. Go figure.
Even in 3.5 Bards were somewhat of a special case as they had "bardic music" that depended on bard levels, so it had to be called out specifically if a PrC granted/increased that. Now with PFRPG and bards abilities still being based on skill ranks and being usable a number of times equal to bard level, that part ports over perfectly.
I'm sure people might disagree with me on some points but I think the above follows what the PFRPG is trying to accomplish with the changes to date. Hopefully this gives you at least someplace to start at least.
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Skylancer, thanks for your thoughts on the subject.
Concerning generalization: I think Jason tried to address this with the prestige class examples, but I don't think it addressed the wizard and cleric issues I came across. Hence why I was looking for guidance. One of the major pluses of Pathfinder is it's compatibility with 3.5 material. My players expect to be able to still use older prestige classes, I expect to as well. If there is a compatibility issue, we may need to find a solution - I was hoping there would be one in game. Since it's ridiculous to expect every prestige class to be addressed (especially when they legally can't), I was hoping for a little official guidance on converting material.
On Wizards: I agree with your assessment on abilities. As far as spell acquisition, I was talking about the bonus spells per spell level, not the two spells acquired automatically as the wizard rises in level. The bonus spells seem to be a class ability at certain levels now, as opposed to a first level ability as it was under 3.5.
On Clerical Domains: Good thoughts here as well. Domains don't appear to continue with a prestige class; I was looking for confirmation since the prestige class examples didn't address this (or if they did I missed it). Prestige classes which add a domain are out there as well (there are several in the splat books) and still need a method to address them.
On Melee Classes: Agreed. Most of these will require minor tinkering at best. I believe the Barbarian Rage mechanic has been changed to a round based system, making it even easier to convert.
On Bards: Bards just smooth operators - even with entering prestige classes. Can't beat that.
Thanks for reading!