I just played a barbarian for the first time and couldn't agree more. The ability just doen't fit right. Continued plusses to move, or some plusses to skill checks while in raged, ect... almost anything would be better.
I find that the Trap Sense ability's relevance depends on the idea behind the barbarian in general, more or less. For a jungly-stalker type with more cunning than strength (I have one in a campaign right now), the Trap Sense ability seems to make some sense (finding hidden tripwires and concealed pits and stuff).
But, the normal tendency is to see barbarians in, well, a more "traditional" light, with focus on brute strength and anger and whatnot, which makes Trap Sense seem odd. I would advocate swapping it out for something else if thats the case (not to mention using the alternative ruling of sensing traps like an elf's "door sense").
So I agree with you for the most part, but I would prefer to see it possible to swap out certain class features for alternate ones rather than eliminate it entirely.
I agree here with everyone. It does not make sense for the standard comcpet. However I can see them sneaking around like stealthy special forces or something.
What needs to be done is 1 of 2 things.
1. Improve the ability greatly making it more relevant.
2. Just ditch it and give us more DR, that needs help too.
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Most games are much more cautious than this, but Tracy Hickman did a fantastic article on just what that little used ability is for: Kicking in doors!
He posits that sometimes games can get too methodical, that we start to think of our groups and characters as modern special opps... very conservative, careful, and tactical. The article claims that sometimes you have to kick in a door to jump-start the action.
The barbarian class is all about taking risks. Trap sense is there to add an incentive for this type of play. With the new rage mechanic it gets even better; rage for one round (increased str, hp and saves), kick down the door and absorb the trap. RAWR!
I wish I had a link to the original text. It received a lot of attention on the Dragon Magazine boards (both good and bad) and I think it is one of the best gaming "op-ed" pieces I've read.
Keep Trap Sense. It is a great ability for both the rogue and the barbarian, for VERY different reasons.
Ryn, who hasn't typed RAWR in too long...
Most games are much more cautious than this, but Tracy Hickman did a fantastic article on just what that little used ability is for: Kicking in doors!
i loved that article, and i've always played barbarians that way from that point forward. to the dislike of many of my fellow players.
Most games are much more cautious than this, but Tracy Hickman did a fantastic article on just what that little used ability is for: Kicking in doors!
He posits that sometimes games can get too methodical, that we start to think of our groups and characters as modern special opps... very conservative, careful, and tactical. The article claims that sometimes you have to kick in a door to jump-start the action.
The barbarian class is all about taking risks. Trap sense is there to add an incentive for this type of play. With the new rage mechanic it gets even better; rage for one round (increased str, hp and saves), kick down the door and absorb the trap. RAWR!
I wish I had a link to the original text. It received a lot of attention on the Dragon Magazine boards (both good and bad) and I think it is one of the best gaming "op-ed" pieces I've read.
Keep Trap Sense. It is a great ability for both the rogue and the barbarian, for VERY different reasons.
Ryn, who hasn't typed RAWR in too long...
I have no disagreement here, thus why I say the bonus should be increased to be something more relevant.
Honestly, I don't think there's a fundamental problem with Barbarian Trap Sense.
Sure, I don't PARTICULARLY like it personally, and am prone to give it up if I can use an alternative (like the Barbarian Totems), but I think it's only problem is being a PASSIVE ability when active ones seem more "fun".
Why do I think it's OK?
For one, it usually stacks with Uncanny Dodge (since Traps should usually catch you Flatfooted), which means together, it IS a more signifigant boost to AC for relevant Traps. Secondly, Rogues also have it. Is Trap Sense worthless for Rogues also? I don't think so.
The only thing I'd change here is how Trap Perception works, i.e. the limit that only those with 1 level of Rogue can detect high DC Traps (sounds great when I word it like that, huh?) Instead, Trap Sense would also grant a Bonus to Perception vs. Traps (or simply allow rolling vs. X DC Traps), meaning Barbarians with good Perception can be ALMOST as good as Rogues at DETECTING Traps if not disabling them (upper end Trap Perception DCs should probably be bumped up to adjust for this new Bonus, though the DC to Save vs. Effect shouldn't be altered... slightly complicated*). Just like how Tracking was made non-exlusive by becoming an aspect of Survival (though Rangers still remain superior through free level-scaling), I think expanding Perception of Traps will make the Trap Sense Bonus more appreciated.
Honestly, I don't think there's a fundamental problem with Barbarian Trap Sense.
Sure, I don't PARTICULARLY like it personally, and am prone to give it up if I can use an alternative (like the Barbarian Totems), but I think it's only problem is being a PASSIVE ability when active ones seem more "fun".Why do I think it's OK?
For one, it usually stacks with Uncanny Dodge (since Traps should usually catch you Flatfooted), which means together, it IS a more signifigant boost to AC for relevant Traps. Secondly, Rogues also have it. Is Trap Sense worthless for Rogues also? I don't think so.The only thing I'd change here is how Trap Perception works, i.e. the limit that only those with 1 level of Rogue can detect high DC Traps (sounds great when I word it like that, huh?) Instead, Trap Sense would also grant a Bonus to Perception vs. Traps, meaning Barbarians with decent Perception can be ALMOST as good as Rogues at DETECTING Traps if not disabling them (upper end Trap DCs should probably be bumped up to adjust for this new Bonus). Just like how Tracking was made non-exlusive by becoming an aspect of Survival (though Rangers still remain superior through free level-scaling), I think expanding Perception of Traps will make the Trap Sense Bonus more appreciated.
Interesting idea, giving them a perception bonus to finding traps without an action in addition to the save bonuses. This wouldn't be restricted to non-magical traps, but they wouldn't be able to tell exactly where the trap is or what the trap does; leaving that to the a rogue.
So you would have sense like this. Signs of threats are present and the party readies for battle. The barbarian goes first, but then he senses something, "there is a trap in this hallway". The rogue moves back up and checks to find where it is, he can't find it due to a bad role, the barbarian is like "%*$& it" and charges forward.
Exactly, KNOWING there is a Trap around is helpful in it's self, even if you can't Disarm it:
You know that the Wizard reeling on last 10% of HPs should defintely stay back.
You can take precautions, like Resistance Spells or Potions, or readying a Tower Shield (etc)
Now you know there's a Trap, the Caster can bypass it if you don't have a Rogue in the Party
Or just choose Door #2 that doesn't have any Traps
Plus, it feels more important when the DM announces "Slob-Dar the Barbarian smells a Trap just ahead of you" - You actually "did something", even if the DM made the roll.
EDIT: Actually, under such a system it might be interesting to allow Feats which granted/raised Trap Sense by +1, which might allow a Barbarian to Perceive Traps otherwise beyond his Perception limit (or, equivalent to a higher level Barbarian/Rogue)
Exactly, KNOWING there is a Trap around is helpful in it's self, even if you can't Disarm it:
You know that the Wizard reeling on last 10% of HPs should defintely stay back.
You can take precautions, like Resistance Spells or Potions, or readying a Tower Shield (etc)
Now you know there's a Trap, the Caster can bypass it if you don't have a Rogue in the Party
Or just choose Door #2 that doesn't have any TrapsPlus, it feels more important when the DM announces "Slob-Dar the Barbarian smells a Trap just ahead of you" - You actually "did something", even if the DM made the roll.
Leaving it vague enough to still need a rogue.
Thinking it over, I'd choose a slightly different solution to the two I mentioned:
My first idea, "complete Skill normalization" ala Tracking/Survival (with Trap Sense bonus to Perception vs. Traps) would result in EVERYONE with high Perception percieving Traps regularly. If the DCs are increased to compensate (not BW-compatable), either the Damage Saves get too high for everyone else, or we need to have SEPARATE Perception/Damage DCs for Traps (clunky).
My second idea was to abandon the Peception Bonus, but "granularize" the DC limit for Trap Perception based on "Tiers" of Trap Sense (+1, +3, etc) - But, besides being complicated, that would mean the Barbarian would not be able percieve the same level-appropriate Traps as the Rogue... So what would be the point?
SO: Short, Simple, and makes the Barbarian glad to have Trap Sense:
Trap Sense would not give a Bonus to Perception Checks,
but when the Barbarian gains it (Rangers have also been mentioned as possibly worthy to find Traps) you gain the same Trapfinding ability as Rogues (to Roll Perception vs. >20 DC Traps.) Since it's not gained until 3rd level, you can't just do a 1-level dip to gain this ability. Disable Device is not a Class Skill for Barbarians and they have no ability to Disable Magical Traps (like Rogues do). If Rangers also gain this ability (for outdoor/'natural' Traps - Urban Rangers excepted?), perhaps they should be allowed to use Survival in lieu of Disable Device for Crafting/Disabling 'outdoor' Traps...?