One of my pet peeves with 3e is trapfinding. It's not that I think it's not useful, assuming the DM is running your typical Indiana Jones trap-laden dungeon. It's just that trapfinding is a non-ability; it's a loophole in an artificial game rule limitation.
Let me put it this way: does anyone require a special class ability to make Spot checks against foes with +10 Hide bonuses or higher? No. So why require a special ability to make a Search check against DC 20 traps?
No good reason, that's why.
I agree. As has been pointed out before, there are only two classes in the core books which actually gain Search as a class skill: ranger and rogue. One might think that good game design would let either class fill the disarming role, but only one actually does. Without the ability to use Search in that capacity, the practicality of the skill is greatly compromised for the ranger. Further, traps become extremely deadly without a rogue. No one can do much about them unless the party has a member of a specific class. One might try to compare this to the cleric, citing that undead are far harder challenges without that class' abilities. However, the game allows the paladin to fill in a similar role to the cleric, and every other class can do something about undead in general regardless of a cleric's presence. The same is not true in the case of traps.
My solution? I got rid of both trapfinding, and the rule which necessitated it. Anyone who rolls high enough to hit a trap's DC can find it. So a ranger can now fill in the security job in the dungeon as well as a rogue, offering more choice, options, and flexibility to the party. Even if the group doesn't have one of those two classes present, they aren't completely hosed. So far, the players have appreciated the changes a lot.
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I'm 99.993% sure that trapfinding is going to be adjusted for this very reason in the final game. In that the ability will grant rogues a bonus on finding traps, so that they're the best at it, but anyone who's got ranks in trapfinding can use the ability to disarm traps.
Is a good change, I think, if only because suddenly rogues aren't required for trap dungeons. Diversifying class roles to a certain extent is good; that's why healing's not really stuck on the cleric only anymore with 3rd edition.
I always wished that rangers, with their whole, "ever vigilant" concept, could function in this regard. To me it just made sense that rangers could fill a similar role to rogues in this regard. I'll be interested in seeing the final rules on this one in PFRPG.
I'm 99.993% sure that trapfinding is going to be adjusted for this very reason in the final game.
Glad to hear it. Please don't give rogues a bonus to finding traps based on level, though. I'd prefer that trapfinding simply allow auto-search checks, but if you all are set on it granting a bonus just keep it as a flat bonus. +2, +4 at the very most.
TS
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I would vote for the auto-search rule. Kinda like the elf's secret door trick (which I never completely understood, actually).
I'd say anyone that CAN roll high enough, even someone who uses it as a cross-class skill, should be able to find traps. The thing that always bothers me is that most of the DM's I play with treat a natural 20 as an auto success no matter what, and always better than someone that didn't nat 20, even if the other player's skill check was higher *grumble*
But I digress.
I would vote for the auto-search rule. Kinda like the elf's secret door trick (which I never completely understood, actually).
Not many people know this, but the elven secret-door-sense is an evolutionary necessity for them. And they didn't evolve it to find hidden valuables or to spoil surprise parties; you can hardly walk ten steps in any elven forest without falling through some hastily made and rotting trap door into all kinds of dangers--burning spikes, animated golden Buddhas, the infamous elven winged worms. (Because any animal found by the elves eventually winds up with wings and magical powers.) It is even whispered that the ghost of Gygax lurks right under the trapdoor that hides in front of Queen Alalahanyadwenialissahamana's boudoir.
TS
I would vote for the auto-search rule. Kinda like the elf's secret door trick (which I never completely understood, actually).Not many people know this, but the elven secret-door-sense is an evolutionary necessity for them. And they didn't evolve it to find hidden valuables or to spoil surprise parties; you can hardly walk ten steps in any elven forest without falling through some hastily made and rotting trap door into all kinds of dangers--burning spikes, animated golden Buddhas, the infamous elven winged worms. (Because any animal found by the elves eventually winds up with wings and magical powers.) It is even whispered that the ghost of Gygax lurks right under the trapdoor that hides in front of Queen Alalahanyadwenialissahamana's boudoir.
TS
Got elf issues? :)
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I always wished that rangers, with their whole, "ever vigilant" concept, could function in this regard. To me it just made sense that rangers could fill a similar role to rogues in this regard. I'll be interested in seeing the final rules on this one in PFRPG.
There is a variant for ranger in WotC Dungeonscape. It allows you to take trapfindering and the ranger gives up track and swift track.
I think trapfinding should be a feat.., with some rules associated.
Got elf issues? :)I would vote for the auto-search rule. Kinda like the elf's secret door trick (which I never completely understood, actually).Not many people know this, but the elven secret-door-sense is an evolutionary necessity for them. And they didn't evolve it to find hidden valuables or to spoil surprise parties; you can hardly walk ten steps in any elven forest without falling through some hastily made and rotting trap door into all kinds of dangers--burning spikes, animated golden Buddhas, the infamous elven winged worms. (Because any animal found by the elves eventually winds up with wings and magical powers.) It is even whispered that the ghost of Gygax lurks right under the trapdoor that hides in front of Queen Alalahanyadwenialissahamana's boudoir.
TS
No, but I do have issues with nonsensical racial abilities that create even more [often predestined] rolls for DMs to remember.
I must be grouchy. You kids get off my lawn! ;)
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I admit, Trapfinding is somewhat odd, but I don't believe it should be removed. I'm thinking of ruling that it grants a bonus equal to half the character's level in the class that grants the Trapfinding ability to Search rolls for traps. That way a Rogue gets their logical bonus to the ability while anyone else can use it.
I do agree that Elves shouldn't have the ability to automatically detect secret doors. Its just silly.
I do have issues with nonsensical racial abilities that create even more [often predestined] rolls for DMs to remember.
Agreed.
Diversifying class roles to a certain extent is good; that's why healing's not really stuck on the cleric only anymore with 3rd edition.
Which is why its kind of a shame that PFRPG is pushing back toward making the Cleric the only healing class.
But as for Rogues...yeah. That was my 'one thing'.
Been preaching that since alpha. Actually, since before alpha. And they saw the light (they probably saw that light before I mentioned how bright it shines, but still)
Is a good change, I think, if only because suddenly rogues aren't required for trap dungeons. Diversifying class roles to a certain extent is good; that's why healing's not really stuck on the cleric only anymore with 3rd edition.
It also eliminates the "must take at least one level of rogue" requirement to deal with traps after 1st-3rd level. Great!
I admit, Trapfinding is somewhat odd, but I don't believe it should be removed. I'm thinking of ruling that it grants a bonus equal to half the character's level in the class that grants the Trapfinding ability to Search rolls for traps. That way a Rogue gets their logical bonus to the ability while anyone else can use it.
Half level is no good. It will only lead to inflation. Give the rogue a fixed bonus.
My suggestions:A) Let's have perception (wisdom and passive) and search (int and active) as two different skills.
Most trapfinders will be scouts (classes with stealth) that is rogues, rangers, monks and bards. Both monks and rangers will have a higher wisdom then the rogue. So make it int. based. Also at higher levels a druid would be a better trapfinder than the rogue. This I don't like.
Make based on int won't make wizards better trapfinder than rogue since I don't see wizards as scouts it won't happen.
Also I can see other classes (fighters!)picking skill focus perception, but they won't pick skill focus search. Make search a separate skill.
B) Give search as a class skill to rangers and rogues (and perhaps Bards)
This way you don't need the rogue. You can use a bard or ranger.
C) Give the rogue skill focus search for free.
This way we don't need half the rogues level as a bonus.
Fighters have many feats and can obviously pick skill focus but the rogue still has search as a class skill. And I don't think Rangers or Bards would want to waste a feat on skill focus search.
D) Give disable devise as a class skill to Rogues and bards and give the bard evasion.
Before you read this, I would like to point out that right now I'm fighting to keep my eyes open and very oblivious to what's going on around me, much less able to understand the specifics of what I'm reading. As such, I may very well end up talking out my arse here, but I'm to tired to give a hoot. The following is based on the assumption made by someone who could be considered to be typing in his sleep that this is based around 3.0/5 D&D. If it's not, oh well. You might pull something out of it anyways.
I will say, a ranger should have an ability atleast similar to that of the rogue's trapfinding, if not as good. In fact, I might the same for a bard, or maybe a monk (they do go through a heck of a lot of training to fine-tune their body, one would think it would have an effect on their senses. They can deflect arrows!!) As for rogues having the ability, and elves with their detect secret doors, that's easily explained.
Elves are apparently supposed to have a higher perception than other races (atleast according to most fantasy literature), and therefor are more likely to notice the secret door being there. I would also say that half-elves should've gotten it, aswell, since there isn't much of a point to electing to be a half elf. Might as well just choose either elf or human, one would be better off.
Along the same lines with rogues, they're supposed to be naturally ever wary of they're surroundings. They develop a sixth sense for things like that. It goes right along with their ability to get out of damage for reflex saves in 3.5. Along with that, it's not uncommon for a rogue to build and lay traps. Therefor, a rogue would, theoretically, be able to stop and say "Hey, I'd lay I trap here...". If you have that much of a problem with it, require that they take Craft(trapmaking) in order to gain the benefit. Heck, by doing that, you could give anyone the choice to take Trapfinding as a feat. After all, only someone who makes and lays traps would really know how to find or disarm the properly.
If you're going to argue against these abilities, you might as well argue against a dwarf's stone-cunning ability or their ability to see in the dark or a monk's ability to deflect arrows (along with a list comprised of most of the things that are restricted to certain races or classes). After all, given the right background and character creation, anyone should be able to do those things along your line of thinking.
If you're going to say that anyone with enough points in the ability should be able to do it, than roll with that. Say that anyone who could take a ten (regardless of the circumstances, for sake of argument) and be able to find it has a chance to notice it. It actually works rather well.
As for arguing about DMs having to remember these things... Well, if you've been DMing for awhile (or playing, for that matter) and haven't made those tiiiiiiiiiiiiiiny frickin' details second nature, then maybe you should consider doing something else (or building yourself a DM screen that's worth a crap to remind you of these things).
I will say, though, that Search should be a class skill for all classes. Right along with Spot. Or atleast for wizards. Think of all the time they spend in libraries looking for books. XD XD XD
Now if anyone had a problem with that, I apologize. Just wait 'till I wake up to yell at me and smack me around. I'll even bring the beating stick if I wound up talking out of my arse. (I actually had to re-read both this and the previous posts several times to remind me of what the heck I was doing, and I would like to take the time to thank spell check for the pretty red lines it puts under words that I misspell, or this would not be understandable)
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Personally I prefer 'Everyone can search, active action'
Characters with Trapfinding have passive search on at all times. The DM can roll in secret and the player can say 'I'm searching' for a second roll. It would also speed play for paranoid gamers, since they wouldn't need to spend a round searching every 5' square.
This would still make the rogue the 'trap master' but not essential.
you'd end up with stuff like this.
Wizard: (Rolls search) Hah! I knew the spellbook would be trapped. *casts erase* Now the black book of doom is mine!
Rogue: (GM rolls passive search check) Wait! *tackles Wizard* The Pedestal is a weight trigger.
W: How did you know?
R: Because I'm the professional.
Edit: and Search should be seperate and INT based. You may spot the depression in the dungeon floor, you search for the trigger mechanism and trap it's attached to.
Personally I prefer 'Everyone can search, active action'
Characters with Trapfinding have passive search on at all times. The DM can roll in secret and the player can say 'I'm searching' for a second roll. It would also speed play for paranoid gamers, since they wouldn't need to spend a round searching every 5' square.
This would still make the rogue the 'trap master' but not essential.
you'd end up with stuff like this.
Wizard: (Rolls search) Hah! I knew the spellbook would be trapped. *casts erase* Now the black book of doom is mine!
Rogue: (GM rolls passive search check) Wait! *tackles Wizard* The Pedestal is a weight trigger.
W: How did you know?
R: Because I'm the professional.
Edit: and Search should be seperate and INT based. You may spot the depression in the dungeon floor, you search for the trigger mechanism and trap it's attached to.
cool
:-)