Another point with the new Challenge Rating system (which I like, overall):
The rules for creatures with only PC or NPC class levels say you subtract 2 or 3 from the creature's level to get its Challenge Rating. So what is the CR of a level 1 goblin warrior? My guess is that "CR -2" means "three steps below CR 1" in this context (i.e. a goblin warrior 1 is CR 1/4), but this should be clarified.
For the record, I've been carefully ignoring this rule (since the wording is vague on whether to make this consideration for xp purposes or just as an EL sort of thing). It changes the CR's in the adventure paths so substantially that my group would be about two levels lower.
It seems this is one of those things that needs a bit of scaling - like -1/-2 at first, -2/-3 or -2/-4 at 10th, etc. A Wizard 3 just doesn't seem like a CR 1 encounter (particularly for a 1st level party).
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Mr. Bulmahn, as an aside: Exactly what is the CR of a Kobold Warrior 1 under the PF Beta rules?It should be about 1/4... but we are still looking at that.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Any chance for getting rid of those, and starting from 1? On the other hand, it might be too much work (but it would be internally more consistent, I think).
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For the record, I've been carefully ignoring this rule (since the wording is vague on whether to make this consideration for xp purposes or just as an EL sort of thing). It changes the CR's in the adventure paths so substantially that my group would be about two levels lower.
It seems this is one of those things that needs a bit of scaling - like -1/-2 at first, -2/-3 or -2/-4 at 10th, etc. A Wizard 3 just doesn't seem like a CR 1 encounter (particularly for a 1st level party).
Depends on when he goes, I guess. A single level 3 wizard would have, what, 10 hit points + con on average at level 3 (3+4+3) or 13 if you give him max at 1st level (which I've heard some claim is meant for PCs and cohorts only). Even if he gets init and can throw a 2nd level spell right off the bat, chances are the party is going to demolish him as soon as they get to go. Heck, a single 1st level Fighter or Barbarian could one-shot him, let alone the whole group. And since a CR 1 is an encounter that causes an equal level party to lose about, what, 25% of their resources? I think that's fair.
Depends on when he goes, I guess. A single level 3 wizard would have, what, 10 hit points + con on average at level 3 (3+4+3) or 13 if you give him max at 1st level (which I've heard some claim is meant for PCs and cohorts only). Even if he gets init and can throw a 2nd level spell right off the bat, chances are the party is going to demolish him as soon as they get to go. Heck, a single 1st level Fighter or Barbarian could one-shot him, let alone the whole group. And since a CR 1 is an encounter that causes an equal level party to lose about, what, 25% of their resources? I think that's fair.
Good point, good point. I'd put a Wiz3 at 19 hp though (6+3+4, +3 con, +3 favored class). AC 15 or 16 means 50% chance of missing for almost all 1st level characters. So even losing initiative he'll probably make it through a single round.
Then Web, Invis if needed, flaming sphere could kill a character, maybe glitterdust. Even just a magic missile could take out a Wiz1.
That's not to say a Wiz3 will destroy any 1st level party - far from - but it's a significant challenge.
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Wow, your wizards get a lot of con. Most of mine have +0 or +1, +2 at most.
Initiative does factor in too. At level 3, there's only so much a wizard can do to prevent being grappled. If even one of the party members beats him, they could already start to put some pressure on, spread out, whatever. The wizard would need two of his magic missiles to insta-take out even a level 1 wizard with no con (in PRPG, that's 6 HP, 7 with favored class), and that's not even guaranteed. The cleric (assuming a default cleric,rogue,wizard,fighter party) could then just heal him right back up. A level 3 wizard only has so many spells.
As always, it depends on the specific wizard, the order of battle, the rolls, etc. I think in general though a level 3 wizard could count as a CR 1. The question is, would he be a challenge for a level 2 party? Given the extra HP, higher to hit, and such, I doubt he'd be much of a challenge at all. So even if he's a high CR 1, he's still a CR 1. Casters have it hardest at early levels when fighting multiple opponents, they don't start becoming big threats until 6-11 or so.
Although we may be derailing the thread a bit. :)
Depends on when he goes, I guess. A single level 3 wizard would have, what, 10 hit points + con on average at level 3 (3+4+3) or 13 if you give him max at 1st level (which I've heard some claim is meant for PCs and cohorts only)....
Max HP at lvl 1 is for elite characters, monsters or NPCs with the elite array.
Wow, your wizards get a lot of con. Most of mine have +0 or +1, +2 at most.
Initiative does factor in too. At level 3, there's only so much a wizard can do to prevent being grappled... The cleric (assuming a default cleric,rogue,wizard,fighter party) could then just heal him right back up. A level 3 wizard only has so many spells.
...I think in general though a level 3 wizard could count as a CR 1. The question is, would he be a challenge for a level 2 party? Given the extra HP, higher to hit, and such, I doubt he'd be much of a challenge at all. So even if he's a high CR 1, he's still a CR 1. Casters have it hardest at early levels when fighting multiple opponents, they don't start becoming big threats until 6-11 or so.
My example had +1 con (x3 levels), that's it. You're right, the cleric could just heal him - but that's about 25% of the cleric's resources for the day. If instead the wizard hit had cast shield to block it, that's 25% of his resources. Grapple has about the same (or less) chance of working (~DC17 combat maneuver defense for the wiz3) as attacking, and probably provokes a little dagger attack that could be substantial.
The wizard3 doesn't need to pose a threat to their lives, or the 2nd level parties lives, to be CR 2 - just needs to use up resources.
Although we may be derailing the thread a bit. :)
Agreed agreed. It's a great idea to bring NPCs down from level = CR.
Putting the party against a single wizard 3 is just poor encounter design. Give him a couple body guards to slow the party down and he is a CR 1, but solo he is not even close.
For that matter a unless monsters are designed to be run solo they are not going to be CR appropriate, this applies to ANY creature.
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Oddly enough, wizards (and sorcerors) as low level encounters tend to be disproportionately "swingy" because of one particular spell - color spray. If the NPC wins initiative in an enclosed area, a single color spray can easily TPK an otherwise superior party.
This effect could be extended and enhanced in expansion book boosted 3.5 play to the point of making such encounters initiative rolling contests and nothing more.