Haste / Slow -- and initiative.

[elghinn velkyn MASTER]

Haste and slow spells don't change initiative.WHY?
They should change initiative by +1/-1 too.

Create new spells(2) "improved haste/slow" (lvl 5spell or +) like lvl3 with reflexe saves and initiative bonus increase/reduce 1+1/5lvl of caster (lvl 20 max:+/-5).

Or/and two another spell (higher lvl):the target make the first action of the round(act in 1st) or make the last action of the round (like zombi) with other bonus/penalty of haste/slow spell.

[Remco Sommeling]

generally I believe no new spells will be added, just revised.

changing initiative for haste is a mostly inconsequential, but adding + 1 initiative as well could be a minor addition in line with the other bonuses the spell gives.

[Max Money]

The changes the OP suggested really wouldn't make a difference in the cyclical order of initiative in 3.X/ Pathfinder. It is more than easy enough to change the order by readying actions or holding an action for a different position. That being said if they added the changes the OP suggested, the monsters would just hold actions until they acted when they wanted to and negate the spell for nothing. The only way this idea would be effective is if they went back to 2nd Ed initiative rules which I highly doubt they will.

[Seldriss]

Use the +2/-2 initiative modifiers from the 3.0 versions of the spells.

[JoelF847]

Under the rare occasion that someone is hasted or slowed prior to initiative is rolled, it would still come up.

[Asgetrion]

Seldriss wrote:

Use the +2/-2 initiative modifiers from the 3.0 versions of the spells.

Actually, 'Haste' in 3E gave you +4 Haste Bonus to AC and an extra Partial Action -- I don't remember it giving you Init bonuses?

[Bruce Telford]

Would required a character/creature hit by a slow or haste spell to reroll their initiative (with appropriate modifiers) be resonable? Of course there is always the chance that someone hit with a slow spell would wind up with a better initiative than they had before (rolled a 5 for the original combat, gets hit with a slow spell and rolls an 18 - 2 for a modified 16...). Or perhaps you could just take the original roll and modifiy it for the remaining rounds of combat (+2 for haste and -2 for slow seems reasonable to me).

[Robert Brambley]

Personally, I think it's a complication of the spell that isn't necessary at all.

Haste already still stands as in the top 95% of all 3rd level spellcasting I'm willing to bet. (for any wizard who isn't barred from Transmutation of course.)

It scales, it affects a lot of targets, and provides a myriad of bonuses to combat mechanics, extra movement AND an extra attack at the highest BAB for ALL recipients. I do not think removing the +1 to initiative is nerfing it beyond recognition at all.

In fact in my campaigns, long ago, I limited Haste to affect only 1 creature + 1 /creature per three levels.

And you know what - it's still cast every single combat just about and selected by both of the PC wizards.

Robert

[Seldriss]

JoelF847 wrote:

Under the rare occasion that someone is hasted or slowed prior to initiative is rolled, it would still come up.

If you are rolling initiative for each round (like i do), then it makes a difference.

Asgetrion wrote:

Actually, 'Haste' in 3E gave you +4 Haste Bonus to AC and an extra Partial Action -- I don't remember it giving you Init bonuses?

Check Player's Handbook 3.0, both Haste and Slow give an initiative modifier (+2 & -2 respectively).

The 3.5 versions don't, which is a shame. But that's not the first case when spells got nerfed in 3.5 (but that's another topic).
Anyway, personally i use the 3.0 versions for Haste & Slow (among other spells).

[Asgetrion]

Seldriss wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

Under the rare occasion that someone is hasted or slowed prior to initiative is rolled, it would still come up.

If you are rolling initiative for each round (like i do), then it makes a difference.

Asgetrion wrote:

Actually, 'Haste' in 3E gave you +4 Haste Bonus to AC and an extra Partial Action -- I don't remember it giving you Init bonuses?

Check Player's Handbook 3.0, both Haste and Slow give an initiative modifier (+2 & -2 respectively).

The 3.5 versions don't, which is a shame. But that's not the first case when spells got nerfed in 3.5 (but that's another topic).
Anyway, personally i use the 3.0 versions for Haste & Slow (among other spells).

Are you sure about this? I'll recheck this once I get home (I completely agree with -2 for 'Slow', but I don't remember 'Haste' giving you any bonuses on Init).

[Max Money]

I'd like to reiterate my point from above...

Initiative is cyclical, and if characters or monsters don't like the order, it can be changed by simply waiting. So the proposed changes you are suggesting really wouldn't matter.

I have never really liked the current initiative rules. The party always, for one reason or another, changes the order; and 90% of the time, it ends up to be monsters go then the party goes. Rinse and repeat. I liked it when initiative was fluid and you never knew when the monsters were going or who in the party acts first.