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Both incure attacks of opertunity because both are ranged attacks, just like shooting a bow while threatened. (This is based off of 3.5, I am not so familiar with PF yet). The only difference that there "may" be is that a ray requires a line of sight and line of effect, and can suffer a miss chance due to cover. Ranged touch spells may or may not, I'm not sure. Both are effected by concealment though, because you muct be able to see what you are targeting.
there isn't really a difference, a ray is a particular shape the spell takes, some spells aren't rays but actually use mostly the same mechanic (ranged touch, though that is not exclusive to spells)
Some spells, abilities and feats work with rays specifically, though I don't recall any such in the core books
(except maybe weapon focus: ray)
weapon focus, weapon specialization, Improved critical, point blank shot, and precise shot all work with rays.
My final understand is any AoO from making a ranged attack with a spell is subsumed by the casting of the spell itself. The spell isn't a weapon attack, and you aren't making an attack... you are casting a spell that happens to have you make a ranged touch attack. The casting of the spell is the important part.
weapon focus, weapon specialization, Improved critical, point blank shot, and precise shot all work with rays.
My final understand is any AoO from making a ranged attack with a spell is subsumed by the casting of the spell itself. The spell isn't a weapon attack, and you aren't making an attack... you are casting a spell that happens to have you make a ranged touch attack. The casting of the spell is the important part.
thanks, though point blank shot and precise shot will work with ranged touch attack as well.
I'd still give the opponent an attack of oppurtunity, it just being a spell does not cut it for me, some spells have the option to be used as either (produce flame and a few others).
In most cases you can take a 5 feet step and cast the spell though so I don't really see a problem there.
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Your right, you can take a 5ft step, which usually will free you up, but there are times that will not help. Things with reach might still get you, or there might not be a square that is free from threatening enemies, or by stepping, the target may be out of line of sight/effect. Using a ranged attack spell, still gets an AoO (at least in 3.5) for shooting into a melee, but there was a feat that let you get around that as there is with a bow, too.
Personally, I wouldn't worry to much about it and just rely on the 5ft step or just wait a little.
I could be wrong, as well, but I know there was a feat for that specifically, and my stance is based off of that.
in some cases you cant take a 5 feet step to safety, most notable opponents with reach or difficult terrain, it would not be an adventure if there wasnt some risk involved would it ? :)
I am sure there was a feat allowing ranged attacks, not sure where either, but I'd probably never take it anyway, just cast another spell and use scorching ray for a time you can use it safely instead.
I never saw a feat that did it but there are several prestige classes that have the ability to make a ranged attack while in melee and not provoke an AoO.
Others have told me that a spell only provokes for casting the spell, not for the ranged attack... I'll try and find the thread again.
Found them!
I don't agree, you make a check to prevent an AoO for casting the spell, not for making a ranged attack.
it is like taking a feat which allows you to prevent attacks of oppurtunity for fighting unarmed (improved unarmed strike), then using that to make sunder and trip attacks with it.
you cast produce flame you make a ranged attack, you wont provoke when you cast the spell, but you do the rounds after ?
if it is the intention that spells with ranged attacks don't provoke it should be added in the rules or included in the spell description, sofar I haven't read any such.
The text most pertinent to this discussion is probably from the pathfinder beta document under actions in combat, cast a spell found on page 137.
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch
spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore
does not provoke attacks of opportunity. The act
of casting a spell, however, does provoke an attack of
opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee
touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score
critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s
AC against a touch attack does not include any armor
bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size
modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if
any) all apply normally.So while it appears that the original writer of this section was primarily talking about melee touch attacks the text does say that "Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks" and as there is no special exception for ranged touch attacks they should follow follow the general rules for touch attacks. However this is not the most clearly written rules text and could possibly use some clarification.
well clear as mud, note that an armed ranged attack still provokes attacks of oppurtunity, so by that logic that would also go for ranged touch attacks like tanglefoot bags. either way I don't think spells are a special exception.
Well since the the text that applies to spell casting in combat is not enough to convince you here are some other arguments.
Do you mean the the "Attack (ranged)" defined on the table on page 135. The entry on the table specifies that the standard action "Attack (ranged)" provokes an attack of opportunity. Since casting a standard action spell uses up the casters standard action for the round the caster can not be taking the standard action "Attack (ranged)" and as such the table entry can not apply unless the spell caster is getting two standard actions in a turn.
Also the standard action "Attack (ranged)" refers to this section of text
"Ranged Attacks: With a ranged weapon, you can
shoot or throw at any target that is within the weapon’s
maximum
range and in line of sight. The maximum
range for a thrown weapon is five range increments.
For projectile weapons, it is ten range increments. Some
ranged weapons have shorter maximum ranges, as
specified in their descriptions."This means that the entry on the table "Attack (ranged)" refers to only making an attack with a ranged weapon.
after looking at this and reading up onto some spells to which it might apply, I am inclined to agree with you, though it is far from clear.
actually the text included in the produce flame spell which specifically says the flames are hurled as a thrown weapon, broke the final straw that held me between two possible interpretations.
I would welcome some clarification under the touch spells in combat though.