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I very much like the whay the MT is presented in the current rules, and I wouldn't add muchg in the way of spells per day, but I do feel that the MT suffers some in the way of class abilities.
What I was considering was allowing my MTs to do was on every other level they could add one level to thier earlier classes in regards to class ablities.
For example: a 3rd Wiz/3rd Cleric/MT 2 would be considered to have the A new Domain Power, a new School Power, and a boost to channel energy.
This benefit doesn't extend itself to spellcasting levels
I don't think that this really over powers the characters but it does make the characters more complicated in building.
Does this seem too much?
Director of Brand Strategy
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Does this seem too much?
Maybe a little bit. If it were one base class's abilities instead of both it might be a little more manageable, but at the same time, the idea behind those powers is to encourage players to stick to those core classes. Seems to me that the MT's spell progression in two casting classes should be enough of a boost and it does prevent there from ever being dead levels, which was another reason the new domain/school/bloodline powers were added.
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Does this seem too much?Maybe a little bit. If it were one base class's abilities instead of both it might be a little more manageable, but at the same time, the idea behind those powers is to encourage players to stick to those core classes. Seems to me that the MT's spell progression in two casting classes should be enough of a boost and it does prevent there from ever being dead levels, which was another reason the new domain/school/bloodline powers were added.
And I can respect that, but it would seem that the idea behind the MT is the marriage between to clesses. To stunt the class benefits entirely seem to be too high a price. It seens like there are to many dead levels in the MT class
At least under what I have proposed there would be only 5 times there would a benefits.
I've done some math to see what the MT looks like in Pathfinder without the domain and school spell slots and abilities.
I added up all the slots given from classes. I then added slots from high ability scores. Here's my thoughts on bonus ability score slots:
Straight Classed Caster:
18 starting, +2 race, +5 levels, +5 book, +6 item = 36
Mystic Theurge:
Primary stat
16 starting, +2 race, +4 level, +2 book, +6 item = 30
Secondary stat
16 starting, no race, +1 level, +3 book, +6 item = 26
A +2 book and a +3 book equals the cash involved with a +5 book. Yes, the MT could fork out for more, however the straight caster can then spend more on getting alternative bonuses, spell slot items, etc... so I kept it within reasonable cash allowances.
Note that the MT is behind by 3 points on his primary DC, and 5 points on his secondary spells. That's before going into level of spell differences.
Here's how the spell slots turn out (we really need a "code" formatting on this board):
Lvl..Wiz...Clr...MT1...MT2.
1st ..18....28....33....33..
2nd...8.....9..... 16....16..
3rd ...8.....7..... 13....13..
4th ...8.....7..... 11....12..
5th ...8.....7..... 10....11..
6th ...7... 8-14... 9....12..
7th ...7... 6-8..... 6..... 7..
8th ...7.....6..... . 3..... 4..
9th ...7.....8..... . 2..... 2..
Here's what the abilities would look like:
Wiz: one 1st level, one 8th level, one 20th level
Clr: two 1st level, two 8th level
MT1: three 1st level, and basically sudden quicken 1/day (equiv 115k item)
MT2: three 1st level, three 8th level, sudden quicken 1/day
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I don't really take into account the ability for MT's to switch around spells from different schools into higher level slots. With that many 5th level and lower slots, I don't see it as being of much use except in rare situations.
You still lose out drastically where it counts. The 5-6 9th level spell slot loss, and a 3-4 8th level spell slot loss really kicks the MT in the ass. Letting him get a couple 8th level abilities and a few more spell slots he had from 3.5e, shouldn't be that overpowering.
Alternatively, you could split the difference and allow advancement in one class' domains or school every level (maybe as a choice upon taking MT, or even every level to allow splitting it up however you want so a Wiz5/Clr5 doesn't get shafted). Perhaps even allowing just the school + one domain of choice, getting only two 8th level abilities instead of three.
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For non-cleric or non-wizard options, it's still fairly easy to set up. Sorcerers have their bloodlines, and the Druid still gets a Domain (or Animal Companion), so it shouldn't be hard to match that up.
Alternatively, you could split the difference and allow advancement in one class' domains or school every level (maybe as a choice upon taking MT, or even every level to allow splitting it up however you want so a Wiz5/Clr5 doesn't get shafted). Perhaps even allowing just the school + one domain of choice, getting only two 8th level abilities instead of three.
Ummmm, you do know they're already getting spells and caster level for two classes every level, right? That's twice what anyone else gets, right?
Maybe allow them to use up feats to get class powers they want.
NO FREE LUNCH!
You ask the guy who detailed a specific chart of spell slots whether he knows that they get spells?
Yes.. I know.
Did you know that the Domains and Schools mostly give extra spells per day, that they used to get in 3.5 but are now no longer there?
Jason specifically said that he felt the extra spells warranted fewer/no class abilities. That's fine... except that they are losing spell slots.. which is supposed to be their balancing factor.
Note that I'm not asking for anything that wasn't already given from the 3.5e version. I'm asking that it be considered to be brought back to what it used to be.
It's a tough class to balance. Losing a bunch (ie, the majority) of high level, encounter pertinent spells for extra lower level spell slots and access to spells they wouldn't have as easily.
If the Mystic Theurge was balanced in 3.5e with having those spells per day, then they should be getting them in Pathfinder, no?
Jason specifically said that he felt the extra spells warranted fewer/no class abilities. That's fine... except that they are losing spell slots.. which is supposed to be their balancing factor.
...If the Mystic Theurge was balanced in 3.5e with having those spells per day, then they should be getting them in Pathfinder, no?
Can't directly compare across versions that way. In PF clerics and wizards don't get spell slots for domain/specialization, so MT isn't missing out on any spellcasting in PF.
PF has added new domain/school powers, and MT sacrifices that for arcane/divine flexibility. That is now a bigger sacrifice. That isn't solved by giving MT spell slots the core class doesn't get.
If PF makes the new domain/school powers optional such that characters could instead retain 3.5e domain/school spells, then the option is automatically built into MT.
The thing is, the Domain spells and School spells were moved to power. The spells per day chart was reduced, and these powers were added... specifically, powers that grant extra spells per day.
I understand if that was done to make staying in the core class a larger factor. The thing is, that works well against regular Prestige Classes that have a full 10 levels of abilities.
The only thing that the Mystic Theurge is getting is spell slots. He had those Domain/School spells per level before. It was removed from the chart, removed from the Mystic Theurge, but not from the Cleric or Wizard.
I can understand not granting the 8th level power or the school's 20th level power, as they are more "class ability" than actual spell per day.
However, the extra spells a wizard gets (even a universalist gets), is directly related to the extra spell slot per spell level that they had in 3.5e.
If that was balanced in 3.5e, then the Mystic Theurge needs to be balanced with that loss in mind. And the simplest fix is to actually give him those spell slots.
I'd prefer more abilities for the Mystic Theurge that are more thematic to the concept. However, Jason has expressed the preference of slots over abilities, hence my suggestion.
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Alternatively, you could split the difference and allow advancement in one class' domains or school every level (maybe as a choice upon taking MT, or even every level to allow splitting it up however you want so a Wiz5/Clr5 doesn't get shafted). Perhaps even allowing just the school + one domain of choice, getting only two 8th level abilities instead of three.Ummmm, you do know they're already getting spells and caster level for two classes every level, right? That's twice what anyone else gets, right?
Maybe allow them to use up feats to get class powers they want.
NO FREE LUNCH!
No I had no idea that they were getting that many spells. I just decided to open up a discussion on this topic without knowing what the intention of the class was. /sarcasm.