[Arcane Schools] Opening can of worms

[ruemere]

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The following article is divided into two parts:
- Opening can of worms - issues found by our group during playtest
- Tentative Revision Proposal For Arcane Schools - how do we think the problems could be resolved

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OPENING CAN OF WORMS

The following article contains the list of issues we have found with arcane schools as written in Pathfinder BETA. Several measures have already been put into place to reign in some of them, however while they may be usable, they are far from being universal.

Arcane School rules in usable format

Arcane School rules are not suitable for prime time. There are several ways to improve on this, however it is beyond the scope of this article. Instead, I will provide our current interpretation for easier reference later.

Arcane Schools, as interpreted by Ruemere wrote:

i. A wizard at 1st level must choose whether to specialize or not. Specialized Wizards picks one school to specialize and two prohibited schools. Non-specialized wizard specializes in Universal School and does not choose prohibited schools. Hence, from now on, "wizard" refers to both "specialized wizards" and "nonspecialized wizards".

ii. Preparing spells from prohibited schools is possible, though whenever a wizard prepares a spell from prohibited school, they lose access to school-based special powers and bonus spells.

Note: Ignore original rules, use those given in (iii):
The wizard's level is used when determining the caster level of these effects. The DC for any save is equal to 10 + the spell's level + the caster's Charisma modifier.
The first sentence is a given and thus redundant, however the second just does not make sense since special abilities are most definitely not spells and do not come with spell level.

iii. A wizard gains special powers based on chosen school. These special powers are either of Supernatural or Spell-like type. Their DC follows the following formula: 10 + 1/2 spellcaster's level + Charisma modifier. Activation of special power requires a standard action unless otherwise stated in special power description.

Note: the part below is extremely frustrating due to convoluted wording. Moreover, there are several outstanding problems with mechanics below - spell slots with permanently assigned spells are difficult to record in a convenient way (since some of those slots can be exchanged), there is no clear information when the wizard is supposed to assign spells to spell slots ("can" does not equal "must"), there is no hint as to how to work with these spells when wizard multiclasses into another spellcasting class, especially one continuing spellcasting progression or one with conflicting schools available. Moreover, what's going to happen to these spells if the wizard loses ability to memorize assigned spells?

iv. A wizard gains bonus spell slots at every even level except 20th. The spell slots come with spells assigned to them on permanent basis, i.e. once a spell is assigned to such spell slot, the spell slot can be used only for memorizing of this particular spell. Bonus spell slot level is equal to Wizard class level divided by two (remember that there is no bonus spell slot at 20th level). Bonus spell slot may be assigned only a spell from one's Arcane School. Before assigning spell to spell slot, a wizard may replace this spell slot with 2 spell slots of one spell level lower (not possible for spell slots of 1st spell level).

Note: bonus spell slots with permanent spells are badwrongfun. Period.

1. Special powers are not balanced.

Special powers granted by schools are not balanced against each other and comparable class abilities. Universal School is the most serious example of this problem.

2. Special powers are overly restrictive.

Several special powers granted by schools are restricting ability to play. Necromanctic School is unusable for Good or Neutral Necromancers since:
- its benefits are affecting [Evil] spells
- it offers no means of controlling created undead

3. Special powers do not follow any usability guidelines.

In other words, some schools offer only combat powers, other utility powers. Some benefits are versatile while some are specialized.
This diversity leads to severe balance problems.

4. Special powers use nonstandard mechanics for DCs.

Specifically, the wording for DC calculation is wrong (see "Note: Ignore original rules..." above).
Also, why use Charisma modifier for the purpose of calculating spell-like or supernatural DCs? It's not like Charisma is the only statistic to be used for such purposes (check 3.5 SRD for examples of monsters using different abilities as basis for Supernatural or Spell-like abilities).

5. Special powers clearly specify its type.

There is no need to state that:
"Arcane school powers that mimic spells are spell-like abilities, while the others are supernatural."

6. School bonus spells mechanic is extremely difficult to use.

See interpretation and ranting above for more details.
The ambiguity may lead to vastly differing interpretations.

7. School bonus spells mechanic is cumbersome to record.

Right now character card of party wizard contains entries like
"6/day Magic Missile (Spell)" in special abilities entry. While pretty easy understand by itself, it adds to already lengthy record of abilities the Wizard has.
It adds time to manage this during combat round (you need to look up this ability, then record usage, if any - multiply this by the number of bonus spell slots used and you get several lines of these).

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TENTATIVE REVISION PROPOSAL FOR ARCANE SCHOOLS

1. Revert to 3.5 mechanic for bonus spells. It's simple and efficient.

SRD 3.5, bonus spells wrote:

A specialist wizard can prepare one additional spell of her specialty school per spell level each day. She also gains a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks to learn the spells of her chosen school.

2. Create strict guidelines on Arcane School special powers. Above all, keep them as generic and non-restrictive as possible. Several suggestions below.

a) NO FREE METAMAGIC FEATS! Ahem. Mucking about with free or lower cost metamagic feats invites disaster. See Universal School of terrifying example of broken usage.

b) No freebies for universalists, please. These guys don't need special powers or bonus slots. Or at least eliminate one of those benefits. After all, they do not get prohibited schools.

b) Suggested guidelines

Specialist Bonus:
- should be as generic as possible
- should be relevant for all spells belonging to particular school
- example: Cast spells of chosen school as if the caster was one level higher. Cast spells of prohibited schools as if the caster was two levels lower (the caster may not cast spells from prohibited schools if adjusted caster level is too low to meet spell minimum level requirement).

Universalist Bonus:
- example: [i]Gain +2 competence bonus to Spellcraft checks.[/b]

1st:
- must scale with level
- must be of versatile utility type or simple close range type (touch attack is not a good idea for a wizard, simple ray spell is fine)
- examples: Mage Hand (Sp), Ray of Enfeeblement (Sp)

8th:
- should provide school appropriate ability
- examples: Channel Negative Energy (Necromancers), Gain +2 Competence to Counterspelling (Universalists)

20th:
- anything goes, though since this is probably final campaign level, abilities granted should be of epic type
- examples: Longevity, Ability to recover from deadly wounds, Spontaneous spellcasting (convert spell slots to spells from wizard's school of choice)

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Regards,
Ruemere

[ruemere]

PS. Here is specific proposal for fixing Necromancer Arcane School power (basically, allowing Necromancer to be closer to Cleric in terms of Undead control proficiency).

Regards,
Ruemere

[Majuba]

ruemere wrote:

ii. Preparing spells from prohibited schools is possible, though whenever a wizard prepares a spell from prohibited school, they lose access to school-based special powers and bonus spells.

Is this one of your proposed changes, or your interpretation of how things are?

The Beta pretty clearly (though it could be written better) removes *only* the single "School Power" of each school when a prohibited school spell is memorized. Not the 1st, 8th, 20th powers, not the bonus spells.

If this is one of your proposed changes, I wouldn't be for it. However if it were put in place, no bonus spells for Universalist would make sense - as it is they need the bonus spells to not be left far behind yet again.

You're correct that the language about the DC of the School Powers is unnecessary, as none of the four per school grant saves. It looks like it was a holdover from when the bonus spells were spell-like abilities.

Edit1: I agree that the School powers are not *particularly* well balanced. I disagree that they all need to be universally useful or the same. If there's anywhere to have a variety of play-styles expressed it is in the specialist schools. Abjurers certainly care much more for utility and defense than an Evoker for instance. Also a touch attack ability is actually quite good for a high strength, low dex Wizard (particularly a multi-class one) who can use it with an unarmed strike to add strength damage.

Edit2: I thunderously agree that the Universalist school 20th level ability is far far too strong. It's 8th level power is good, but quickly used up.

[stuart haffenden]

3.5 Arcane Schools were way better.

Please change them back.

In my games...

Specialization means never having access to 2 schools, period.

If you don't specialize, you don't gain any extra spells, period.

It's Spells/day vs. Versatility. It wasn't broken.

[anthony Valente]

stuart haffenden wrote:

3.5 Arcane Schools were way better.

Please change them back.

In my games...

Specialization means never having access to 2 schools, period.

If you don't specialize, you don't gain any extra spells, period.

It's Spells/day vs. Versatility. It wasn't broken.

You know, I've been wondering this myself even if I haven't voiced it so far. Why has it been changed in the 1st place? Was there anything wrong with how it used to be? I personally like the rules for specialists in 3.5 better myself.

The complete prohibition of opposing schools does seem a little arbitrary, however. I'd rather see restrictions in the form of harder DCs to learn such spells, concentration checks to successfully cast them, such spells taking up a slot 1 level higher than normal, caster level lowered, easier DC to resist, and so on... making it an unattractive choice for speciallists, but not completely disallowing them access.

So why the change?

[James Jacobs]

anthony Valente wrote:

stuart haffenden wrote:

3.5 Arcane Schools were way better.

Please change them back.

In my games...

Specialization means never having access to 2 schools, period.

If you don't specialize, you don't gain any extra spells, period.

It's Spells/day vs. Versatility. It wasn't broken.

You know, I've been wondering this myself even if I haven't voiced it so far. Why has it been changed in the 1st place? Was there anything wrong with how it used to be? I personally like the rules for specialists in 3.5 better myself.

The complete prohibition of opposing schools does seem a little arbitrary, however. I'd rather see restrictions in the form of harder DCs to learn such spells, concentration checks to successfully cast them, such spells taking up a slot 1 level higher than normal, caster level lowered, easier DC to resist, and so on... making it an unattractive choice for speciallists, but not completely disallowing them access.

So why the change?

Because change is the nature of a beta. If it's not broken, we'll go back to the 3.5 version. But if it makes the game better, we'll keep it. The beta is for testing out new options, and not all of them are going to be, in the end, staying in the game.

But if we didn't test, we'd never know.

[anthony Valente]

James Jacobs wrote:

Because change is the nature of a beta. If it's not broken, we'll go back to the 3.5 version. But if it makes the game better, we'll keep it. The beta is for testing out new options, and not all of them are going to be, in the end, staying in the game.

But if we didn't test, we'd never know.

Thank You James. I can appreciate that outlook amd reasoning for proposed changes.

[ruemere]

Majuba wrote:

ruemere wrote:

ii. Preparing spells from prohibited schools is possible, though whenever a wizard prepares a spell from prohibited school, they lose access to school-based special powers and bonus spells.

Is this one of your proposed changes, or your interpretation of how things are?

This is my interpretation. Literal interpretation would pretty much invalidate whole "Arcane School" concept.

My interpretation:
If you prepare spells from prohibited schools, you cannot use School Specialist Power, School Level Based Powers and School Bonus Spells.

Literal interpretation:
If you prepare spells from prohibited schools, you cannot use School Specialist Power. You can still use School Based Powers and School Bonus Spells.

Basically, word "prohibited" loses any significance.

Majuba wrote:

[...]If this is one of your proposed changes, I wouldn't be for it.

This is an interpretation. I assumed that voiding prohibition of schools was not intentional. And that's why I quoted my interpretation.

Majuba wrote:

However if it were put in place, no bonus spells for Universalist would make sense - as it is they need the bonus spells to not be left far behind yet again.

Having seen Universalist in action, I beg to differ. 8th level power makes a world of a difference.

Majuba wrote:

[...]Edit1: I agree that the School powers are not *particularly* well balanced.[...]

That's why advocate making the bonuses the same for each school or building guidelines. The diversity is fine if there is some cap on power application.

Majuba wrote:

Edit2: I thunderously agree that the Universalist school 20th level ability is far far too strong. It's 8th level power is good, but quickly used up.

I am not worried about 20 level power... now. It's just that I do not foresee continuing playing beyond 20th level with the current Epic rules.

Regarding 8th level power, it basically doubles effectiveness of a Wizard. Of course, the Wizard must be really careful with their slot management, however:
- this power allows to metamagic spells from highest available spell slot (just use enough slots to ensure that you do not exceed higher slot), so 12th level Wizard may cast Empowered Disintegration (12 x 2 x 1.5 * 1d6 = 32d6) for 2 slots, or Silent Disintegration and Still Disintegration for 1 slot.
- properly prepared Wizard will have Wands and Rods to fall upon to make sure he has all the spells needed.

At higher levels this power allows also to significantly increase effectiveness of Quicken spell (basically, our Universalist casts 2 spells each round now).

Regards,
Ruemere

[Majuba]

ruemere wrote:

This is my interpretation. Literal interpretation would pretty much invalidate whole "Arcane School" concept.

My interpretation:
If you prepare spells from prohibited schools, you cannot use School Specialist Power, School Level Based Powers and School Bonus Spells.

Literal interpretation:
If you prepare spells from prohibited schools, you cannot use School Specialist Power. You can still use School Based Powers and School Bonus Spells.

Basically, word "prohibited" loses any significance.

I am 95%+ sure that the Literal interpretation is the intended one. Agreed that "prohibited" is too strong a word, and the oft-used "opposed" would work better for most purposes.

ruemere wrote:

Regarding 8th level power, it basically doubles effectiveness of a Wizard. Of course, the Wizard must be really careful with their slot management, however:

- this power allows to metamagic spells from highest available spell slot (just use enough slots to ensure that you do not exceed higher slot), so 12th level Wizard may cast Empowered Disintegration (12 x 2 x 1.5 * 1d6 = 32d6) for 2 slots, or Silent Disintegration and Still Disintegration for 1 slot.
- properly prepared Wizard will have Wands and Rods to fall upon to make sure he has all the spells needed.

At higher levels this power allows also to significantly increase effectiveness of Quicken spell (basically, our Universalist casts 2 spells each round now).

Emphasis mine - the Universalist can cast 2 spells per round for exactly ONE round, until 16th level when he can manage 2. With level/2 metamagic booster slots/usages, they go pretty darn quick with quickening.

You're right a 12th level Wizard could Empower his highest slots, making an empowered disintegrate up to 3 times per day. He can do the same thing with a Rod of Metamagic Empower - available at your local Wiz-Mart for under 33k*.

Is it powerful - yes. Is it versatile - yes. Is it beyond the bounds of what is already fairly easily available? By no means.

*: Campaign-dependent, please see your local GM/DM for details. Price guarantee good only in competitive markets with high product availability.

[ruemere]

Majuba wrote:

ruemere wrote:

[...]Basically, word "prohibited" loses any significance.

I am 95%+ sure that the Literal interpretation is the intended one. Agreed that "prohibited" is too strong a word, and the oft-used "opposed" would work better for most purposes.

Given number of ambiguities, I would not dismiss my interpretation so easily.

Majuba wrote:

ruemere wrote:

[...]

At higher levels this power [Universalist, level 8th power] allows also to significantly increase effectiveness of Quicken spell (basically, our Universalist casts 2 spells each round now).

Emphasis mine - the Universalist can cast 2 spells per round for exactly ONE round, until 16th level when he can manage 2. With level/2 metamagic booster slots/usages, they go pretty darn quick with quickening.

Umm. One-round-limit? You can use Quicken spells the usual way, you know.

12th level wizard has 3 slots of 5th level, 2 slots of 6th level.
This particular Wizard (the guy in the party I run games for) has 4 slots of 5th level and 3 slots of 6th level for a total of 7 Quickenable slots (of course, he hardly uses all slots for Quickened spells).
Universalists Metamagic added another Quickened slot (for free, this time, so it's either Quickened Empowered something or Quickened 6th level spell).
Overall, he can Quicken 5-6 slots safely without going nova (i.e. burning all significant resources). Given Wands and Staves (Pathfinder Staves can be recharged now), the guy also has spare spell reserve in items.

So we're looking of 5-6 ROUNDS per day with two spells discharged per round.

Given that meaningful combat rounds per encounter average is 3, you can safely assume that he is going to be handle to spread his abilities over 2-3 encounters at least (he usually reserves at least one round for later - just in case I get a bit nasty).

Of course, leftover uses (2) go to Empower, so you're looking also at 1 Empowered spell of 6th level.

Majuba wrote:

You're right a 12th level Wizard could Empower his highest slots, making an empowered disintegrate up to 3 times per day. He can do the same thing with a Rod of Metamagic Empower - available at your local Wiz-Mart for under 33k*.

It's good I do not take Wiz-Mart approach to magic stuff, then.

Majuba wrote:

Is it powerful - yes. Is it versatile - yes. Is it beyond the bounds of what is already fairly easily...

It's not about going out of bounds. It's about being in addition to already present items. How many Rod of Metamagic X your Wizard is supposed to have beyond standard?

Mind you, I am not complaining about the power itself but about how it rocks in comparison with other 8th level powers of Arcane Schools. It's unbelievably useful.

Regards,
Ruemere
Ruemere

[Montalve]

myself i really like the new ways for the schools and the domains, same for sorcerers bloodlines and i hope the 3 of them stay, even if some changes should be done

i just hope the 2nd power of Sun Domain is still "Produce Flame" i have find that my cleric has no better tool at her disposal than her "sacred flame" has helped her keep abusers down without anu more weapons, save herself from a Dire Boar, and began a fire where one of her direst enemies died...