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I would like to propose: (and I know this is a little bit about feats - but the issues are associated and go hand-in-hand; i think both needs to be addressed concurrently).
Use of a shield improves the AC by 50% when Fighting Defensively or using Full Defense.
(thus +3 with the former and +6 with the latter).
Furthermore, as is Combat Expertise is a pretty limp feat - I feel part of its ridiculous stacking power it once held was due to the fact that you could use the feat AND fight defensively in the same round - compound that with Tumble skill trained, and you could really make a good AC.
I feel that a better way to go is to make the feat: Combat Expert work in conjunction with Fighting Defensively - but make the person better at it.
Such as:
Combat Expert adds +2 to the AC to anyone Fighting Defensively, or taking Full Defense.
Finally, I think that Combat Expert should no longer be a prereq for Imp Trip or Disarm - since Combat Expert is Int based, and the maneuvers are Str based - not to mention the maneuver feats are no where near as lucrative as they once were.
I think this would go a ways to fix CE feat to a level that is acceptable, and allow fighter types to be good at tripping and disarming maneuvers.
The Alpha rules removed the CE as the prereq and we thought that was a good move.
That being said, I'm not sure what mechanic trip and disarm should go under - I'm thinking Dex 13 as a requirement - but then that moves more feats into the Dex trees (that already has Dodge tree).
Robert
I like this proposal Robert. But I wouldn't worry about where to put the 'mechanic' for trip and disarm. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm don't have to have a prerequisite feat at all as far as I'm concerned - especially considering the difficulting of getting combat manuevers to succeed now.
(and if the idea no prerequisite is too painful, a +4 BAB requirement could be tacked on)
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I like this proposal Robert. But I wouldn't worry about where to put the 'mechanic' for trip and disarm. Improved Trip and Improved Disarm don't have to have a prerequisite feat at all as far as I'm concerned - especially considering the difficulting of getting combat manuevers to succeed now.
(and if the idea no prerequisite is too painful, a +4 BAB requirement could be tacked on)
Thanks, Eric.
I'm thinking I can see a Dex 13+ as feasible. But not Intelligence. And I don't think CE needs to be the prereq unless the CE is changed to not work on the wonky Int concept; and not need an Int to take it - then I say keep it as the prereq.
I think they do need some prereq feat - just not sure what - but not if they need a 13 int.
OT: I like your wiz avatar better. ;-)
Robert
I'm thinking I can see a Dex 13+ as feasible. But not Intelligence. And I don't think CE needs to be the prereq unless the CE is changed to not work on the wonky Int concept; and not need an Int to take it - then I say keep it as the prereq.I think they do need some prereq feat - just not sure what - but not if they need a 13 int.
OT: I like your wiz avatar better. ;-)
Robert
I don't really like dex as a prerequisite either. In order of preference I'd like to see 1) no prereq, 2) BAB +4, 3) Int 13+
OT: I also liked it better.
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I don't really like dex as a prerequisite either. In order of preference I'd like to see 1) no prereq, 2) BAB +4, 3) Int 13+
so it doesn't concern you that it may be too lucrative of an option to choose Imp Trip or Disarm without a prereq?
While Overrun, Bullrush etc does?
EDIT: the problem I see is INT does not make sense; Dex does. However, Combat Expert makes sense; but INT makes it unselectable - and not worth it based on what the feat does now.
There isnt any other feat that makes sense - to have no feat prereq I think is making the choices of Imp Trip/Disarm too lucrative - but nothing else makes sense. Since DEX (to me) does make sense, it makes Dodge the most likely feat - since it's the Dodge related feat - but it already has a lot of love since that tree is already lucrative.
Don't know.....don't know....what I do know is - get rid of the INT to do both Trip/Disarm feats. I liked the Alpha that got rid of Combat Expert as the prereq. Okay - I've rambled enough.
Robert
so it doesn't concern you that it may be too lucrative of an option to choose Imp Trip or Disarm without a prereq?Robert
No, it doesn't. The DC for for a trip or disarm to succeed being 15+CMB is a huge barrier to making improved trip and disarm too good. If we were talking 3.5 trip and disarm, then yes it would concern me.
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No, it doesn't. The DC for for a trip or disarm to succeed being 15+CMB is a huge barrier to making improved trip and disarm too good. If we were talking 3.5 trip and disarm, then yes it would concern me.
so it doesn't concern you that it may be too lucrative of an option to choose Imp Trip or Disarm without a prereq?Robert
Fair. But Overrun and Bullrush etc need the same DC and they HAVE a prereq feat....
Thoughts?
Robert
But Overrun and Bullrush etc need the same DC and they HAVE a prereq feat....
Thoughts?
Robert
Ok, from a rules consistency standpoint you definitely have a point. However, Improved Overrun and Improved Bullrush really stink as feats. In my games people (and the monsters I control) rarely do those manuevers.
I'd like to see one combined feat which does what those two feats do, then maybe having a prerequisite would be fair. Or just remove the prerequisite for those feats also.
QFT.
Have you seen the thread that addresses the notion of combining them?
Robert
I read the early discussions of it and went back today and looked at what was said since and I agree with pretty most of what's being said regarding making overrun and bull rush better options.