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The Helpless (paralyzed, sleeping, or bound) and Pinned condition give a defender -4 AC vs. melee attacks, but not vs. ranged attacks. Why?
#1 - Even if this adds a touch of realism, it seems like a big complication for a tiny bit of verisimilitude. For Prone I get get the +4/-4 difference because someone might intentionally lie down to hide from ranged attacks, but if you're Helpless or Pinned, you're just screwed either way.
#2 - This difference alone seems to be why two columns are required for Table 9-6, which is a huge waste of space.
Please consider simplifying this and making Helpless and Pinned -4 AC vs. both melee and ranged attacks.
I should hope not. Hitting the deck when people are shooting at you, to provide a lower profile target, is a tried and true means of defense when you don't have any cover.
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I should hope not. Hitting the deck when people are shooting at you, to provide a lower profile target, is a tried and true means of defense when you don't have any cover.
I agree.
I said get rid of the difference for Helpless and Pinned; nobody is hitting any deck there, they're just lying on the deck (and they might not even be lying; nothing says that Helpless and Pinned are on the ground). I'm fine with the melee vs. ranged distinction for Prone because you're on the on the ground, low profile and all. One exception/set of different modifiers I can keep track of, especially if it make intuitive sense like "Prone: good vs ranged, bad vs, melee," but three - and three where each works differently - gets a bit taxing for my brain.
Ah, I see. It is getting late for my eyes around here... deadline's looming so I'm mostly working (and taking mini-breaks to post here).
The reason I think there has been a difference between melee and ranged for helpless and pinned is that the rules are pretty much assuming the helpless or pinned character actually is prone (more or less) but not able to actively make use of it.
Considering that a helpless character is treated as effectively having a Dexterity of 0 (thus a -5 modifier to AC already), the additional -4 seems to be adding insult to injury. I can see getting rid of any special modifier for helpless on that table other than telling the DM to apply whichever other mods apply, including -4 for prone vs melee (+4 for ranged) if the helpless character is prone.
Ultimately, I'm not really sure why a helpless character should give up any further AC to an attacker than the -5 caused by effectively being Dex 0. Doesn't that already reflect that the target isn't moving? Does the situation need a net -9 to the helpless defender's AC? I'm not sure it does.
In the case of a pinned target, in which the pinned opponent still has a positive Dexterity, I can understand the blanket penalty to AC. But, again, I'm willing to apply that as a penalty under all circumstances... and then apply further circumstances like prone to it.
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But, again, I'm willing to apply that as a penalty under all circumstances... and then apply further circumstances like prone to it.
That's more what I was thinking. One might be Helpless and Prone, or Pinned and Prone, in which case any melee vs. ranged differences would just come from Prone.
Right now I just feel there are too many different modifiers that add very little to the game to keep straight.
PS- Nice conversation, Bill. After watching another of my threads go down in flames over something completely unrelated to the main topic, it's nice to disagree with someone and then both go, "Oh yeah," and find we pretty much agree. Have a nice day.
Think of it this way.
LOTR 2nd movie. Gimli is pinned under the worg. It would be incredible easy for someone to wander up and stick him with a spear, but trying to hit him with an arrow with that worg on top of him? He'd actually have COVER and therefor itd be harder to hit him.
In fact Id rule you might not even know he was there so why pick him as a target anyway.
Same thing happens in the battle of pellenor fields in LOTR the return of the king. Theoden is trapped and helpless under his horse.
For an orc to finish him off would have been cake. Heck a 111 year old hobbit could have finished him off (as it was he died on his own)
But with the battelfield littered with bodies and that horse on top of him, it would be hard to even make him out as target at all at any kind of distance (sure you could walk up to him and fire your bow point blank)
Anyway even though it isnt his CHOICE to have cover, effectively he has cover, but sinc he cant move by his own choice, he is a sitting duck for a melee attack.
Take a DnD opportunity for instance, a wizard has you pinned to the floor with bigbys interposing hand.
You dont have any actual 'cover' being that the "hand is invisible and etheral (technically for this purpose)
But depending on the range you are shooting from (lets say 30 ft, the longest distance you can be and still benefit from point blank shot.)
The profile offerd from the prone target, and the angle of the shot from 30 ft away is such that it is hard (really hard) to actually hit that target.
Being an expert rifleman, having had combat expereince in the army, and having been there done that (at least with a gun) I'd say if someone was prone within 30 feet Id do better trying to get him with a greande (area of affect) than anything else.
That also being said, if there was a menacing barn 30 ft away I probably could hit the broad side of it with a bow and I think Id be more deadly with a scary, moss covered rock.
Now if the same wizard pinned you to a WALL (ie upright) with the same spell, I think itd be easy to say you get the same bonus the melee guy would (because the profile and angle offered you is to your advantage this time) and it effectively is, well shooting the wall.
But this is more a DM ruling , than something that needs to be covered in a rule book.
Some should (and maybe they have) write a book, not of more rules, but of HOW to DM, giving people food for thought on how to "judge" these kinds of situations.
In fact in alot of RPGs the Game MAster is called a judge, because that is REALLY what you are doing :aside from role playing the npcs, making funny noises when the goblin perishes and looking menacing from behind your DM screen...does any one use aDM screen anyore?