The following proposals have become a part of our regular campaign. They have been all somewhat playtested and, in general, they were found out to be useful addition to gaming.
1. Weapon Finesse & CMB.
Users of Weapon Finesse are allowed to use Dexterity instead of Strength for the Purpose of calculating CMB.
2. Love for Monks.
Monks gain +4 competence bonus on Combat Maneuvers.
The bonus is improved to +8 at 11th level and +12 at 16th.
Monks are allowed to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity or Strength for the purpose of calculating CMB.
3. Revisions to existing combat maneuvers.
Existing maneuver: Grapple.
Change: Add new option, Throw. Allows to throw grappled target (opposed CMB, -4 per 5' feet to be thrown, grapple is canceled whether you succeed or fail, if successful, roll ranged touch with -4 per 5' thrown).
4. New combat maneuvers (note that there is no prerequisites, this is just a proposal, not a fully fleshed rule).
New maneuver: Intercept.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to cancel opponent's move action.
New maneuver: Grab and Trip / Throw.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to use opponent's momentum to grab opponent and trip or throw.
New maneuver: Strike to Unbalance.
Effect: Standard action to attack, deal damage and inflict Shaken condition.
New maneuver: Strike to Daze.
Effect: Standard action to attack, deal damage and inflict Dazed condition.
New maneuver: Strike to Cripple.
Effect: Standard action to attack, deal damage and inflict Speed penalty condition.
5. We have houseruled Improved Grab. If someone finds it useful, brief version quoted below:
ruemere wrote: Improved Grab (Ex): Whenever a creatures with this ability hits with weapon capable of grappling, it may immediately execute a Grapple combat maneuver at +4 competence bonus as a free action without provoking attacks of opportunity. If the creatures chooses to maintain the grapple, it cannot use this particular weapon for other actions than grappling. The creature may continue using other weapons as per multiattack (natural attacks lost due to maintaining of grapple are considered to be secondary) or multiweapon fighting (attacks lost due to maintaining of grapple are considered to be done with offhand weapon).
Additional grapple options (Move, Damage, Pin) are available for use with natural weapons. Manufactured weapons options are subject to specific rules listed in weapon descriptions and GM's approval.
Constrict (Ex): Whenever you grapple successfully, you may deal additional damage as per amount listed.
----
The effects of these revised rules:
- you lose attacks with weapon dedicated to grappling
- some weapons (like net, bolas, whip) grant effectively Improved Grab, though access to additional options is limited (they all restrict movement, whip grants free Trip maneuvers). On the other hand, you are free to use weapon in your off hand to whack at grappled opponent.
- note that there are no additional penalties to grapple checks when doing something else besides grappling. Grapple Combat Maneuver is hard enough to execute and maintain as it is.
- note that there is no size limit grapple target - a small dog may bite its opponent's leg, so to speak - the grapple size penalties are enough to handle this.
- note that there is no mention of anyone being pulled into anyone's space during grapple - it's all covered by Move grapple option.
- note that there is no special rule for grappled target hindering grappler's action. Again, it was deemed too cumbersome to use due to smaller effectiveness of grapple itself.
Regards,
Ruemere
New Grapple option: Throw.
Allows to throw grappled target (opposed CMB, -4 per 5' feet to be thrown, grapple is canceled whether you succeed or fail, if successful, roll ranged touch with -4 per 5' thrown).
Current Grapple Options include Move. I think Move could be easily extended to Throw by saying "for every 4 points you EXCEED the DC(Maneuver AC), you can Throw your opponent 5' more feet.", Instead of changing the DC (-4/5' thrown) which means FAILURE if you don't beat the higher DC. (If you try to throw someone 20' but barely Fail, they should be thrown 15' or 10', not negate your Grapple Attempt completely.)
New maneuver: Intercept.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to cancel opponent's move action.
If Maneuvers are "Attacks" and able to be used for AoO's, you can just Trip or Bullrush (Bodyslam) the opponent, negating at least a Move Action.
New maneuver: Grab and Trip / Throw.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to use opponent's momentum to grab opponent and trip or throw.
Likewise, if Maneuvers can be used for AoO's, you can just Trip your opponent. Since Throw (as extension of Grapple Option:Move) would normally require you ALREADY to be Grappled with them, I don't think it should be available as a Single AoO option (Jason seems to worry about Maneuvers-as-AoO's anyways, so this seems a bit much). Bullrush/Bodyslam-as-AoO would achieve largely the same thing as Throwing someone a short distance, without bypassing the normal "Pacing" necessary for the Grapple sub-Options.
New maneuver: Strike to Unbalance.
New maneuver: Strike to Daze.
New maneuver: Strike to Cripple.
These seem very Monk-ish, and seem more akin to the Scorpion Strike Feat.
I'd rather these be Feats, and don't see them as MANEUVERS, when Scorpion Strike works off MELEE Attacks.
New Grapple option: Throw.
Allows to throw grappled target (opposed CMB, -4 per 5' feet to be thrown, grapple is canceled whether you succeed or fail, if successful, roll ranged touch with -4 per 5' thrown).
Quandary wrote: Current Grapple Options include Move. I think Move could be easily extended to Throw by saying "for every 4 points you EXCEED the DC(Maneuver AC), you can Throw your opponent 5' more feet.", Instead of changing the DC (-4/5' thrown) which means FAILURE if you don't beat the higher DC. (If you try to throw someone 20' but barely Fail, they should be thrown 15' or 10', not negate your Grapple Attempt completely.) Moving with someone else, when you just want to throw them off the ledge, does not seem to be very appealing. You may also attempt to use grappled target as an improvised throwing weapon. Finally, since there is no size limitation, you may use grapple for throwing stuff held by other people (two people vying for a weapon, one of them simply trying to make the weapon fall as far as possible, the other wanting to regain control over it).
(revised as per your proposal)
New grapple option: Throw. Opposed CM check. Throw grappled object or opponent, 5' per 4 points by which you beat DC. Failure does not break grapple.
New maneuver: Intercept.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to cancel opponent's move action.
Quandary wrote: If Maneuvers are "Attacks" and able to be used for AoO's, you can just Trip or Bullrush (Bodyslam) the opponent, negating at least a Move Action. Maneuvers are maneuvers. They are not attacks. They may count as attack for purpose of breaking invisibility, they may cost an attack to perform however, there is no mention of possibility of using them instead of attacks in general.
Whenever you can use a maneuver in place of an attack, it is specifically addressed in maneuver description:
Pathfinder BETA, Combat Maneuvers wrote: While most combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action (in place of a melee attack), others require specific actions. and
Pathfinder BETA, Disarm wrote: You can attempt to disarm your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack. New maneuver: Grab and Trip / Throw.
Effect: Immediate action costing attack of opportunity. Opposed CMB to use opponent's momentum to grab opponent and trip or throw.
Quandary wrote: Likewise, if Maneuvers can be used for AoO's, you can just Trip your opponent. Since Throw (as extension of Grapple Option:Move) would normally require you ALREADY to be Grappled with them, I don't think it should be available as a Single AoO option (Jason seems to worry about Maneuvers-as-AoO's anyways, so this seems a bit much). Bullrush/Bodyslam-as-AoO would achieve largely the same thing as Throwing someone a short distance, without bypassing the normal "Pacing" necessary for the Grapple sub-Options. It would be so if the mentioned maneuvers could have been used as attacks. Unfortunately, unless revised, they are not for the most part:
Bull Rush - standard action or part of charge action.
Overrun - likewise.
Disarm/Sunder/Trip - melee attacks, so they should be usable as AoOs.
Feint - standard action. Not usable.
Also, Disarm/Sunder/Trip provoke AoO by themselves. This leads to certain ambiguity - is it possible to provoke AoO with AoO? And if so, since they are both interrupts, in what order they should be resolved?
Grab and Trip / Grab and Throw are compromises. No AoO, usable by martial artists and offer a bit simplified resolution.
Finally, Grapple with Throw is a little better than simple Throw/Trip, since being an attacker yields +5 circumstance bonus to this test.
New maneuver: Strike to Unbalance.
New maneuver: Strike to Daze.
New maneuver: Strike to Cripple.
These seem very Monk-ish, and seem more akin to the Scorpion Strike Feat.
I'd rather these be Feats, and don't see them as MANEUVERS, when Scorpion Strike works off MELEE Attacks. These strikes add oomph to fighters and they can always come with associated Fortitude save. Adding them as feats won't solve the problem of attempting to knock someone with a single blow or striking at someone else's legs to slow them down.
Labeling them as Martial Arts is inappropriate on the grounds that you don't need a superior unarmed expertise to disable someone with a broom. Though yes, I do expect that given proposasls in #1 Monks would become more of a threat.
Regards,
Ruemere
Regards,
Ruemere
Pathfinder Adventure, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Here is my view on your proposals:
1. Personally, I think that Dex should just be added to CMB along with Strength. Otherwise, a perfectly reasonable option.
2. +4 seems a bit high. I would go with +3, +6, +9.
3. Any rules for throwing are going to be complex, even with the added simplicity of CMB. That being said, they should be in the rules and your proposal seems simple enough. I would want to test it myself, though.
4. I like intercept, daze, unbalance, and cripple. Give fighting types more options and make them more versatile. I don't like Grab and Trip, though. Intercept is a complication of AoOs, but it is still pretty simple to track (If I succeed, you just stop.) Grab and Trip brings up a number of further complications, placing the complicated trip and throw mechanic onto already complicated AoOs.
5. I like this version of Improved Grab. While it looks wordy, it is pretty simple and most of the text is just making it specific.
Overall, I like your suggestions a lot and I hope Jason takes a peek.
An immediate-action Intercept maneuver is sorely needed. Associated feats would be Improved Intercept (+2 to CMB, do not provoke AoO), and Greater Intercept (make 5-ft. step and then intercept as immediate action). This maneuver and associated feats would supercede the Shall Not Pass test feat.
The base DC for combat maneuvers is absurdly high. DC 11 + CMB would put the attacker and defender on even footing. To skew things in the defender's favor a bit, DC 12 + CMB would be fine. DC 15 + CMB means that, against level-appropriate opponents, PCs should not bother attempting maneuvers.
Thank you for your comments. I do hope that Jason has a look at this.
As I said, these revisions were playtested somewhat - "somewhat" as in "a situation occured during a course of session, and we have houseruled to resolve it, and we like the results".
Addressing specifics:
thefishcometh wrote: 1. Personally, I think that Dex should just be added to CMB along with Strength. Otherwise, a perfectly reasonable option. Stacking of two abilities is not recommended. At higher levels bonus differences due to stacking of two ability bonuses become problematic.
thefishcometh wrote: 2. +4 seems a bit high. I would go with +3, +6, +9. Standard bonus in 3.5 is either +4, +8 or +12. It roughly corresponds to improving one's chance of success by 20%.
Other standard values:
-2 for penalties
-2 / +2 for circumstance bonuses
Meanwhile, fixed DCs may vary wildly.
+4 also makes Monks better than fighters at 1st level, but only marginally better at 10th level (BAB progression difference). With very high maneuver DCs, to make the maneuvers worth using, one has to show some real love to wimpiest class in game.
thefishcometh wrote: 3, 4 & 5. Please, do test them.
Kirth Gersen wrote: An immediate-action Intercept maneuver is sorely needed. Associated feats would be Improved Intercept (+2 to CMB, do not provoke AoO), and Greater Intercept (make 5-ft. step and then intercept as immediate action). This maneuver and associated feats would supercede the Shall Not Pass test feat. +4 please, make it +4. Note that there is no 5' step, so it's the only chance to stop anyone from moving. I do not like Shall Not Pass feat since it is very artificial (you can try to stop a truck with a baseball bat using that feat) and it is too heavy on prerequisites (Combat Reflexes) and the prerequisite feat interacts with Shall Not Pass directly (by adding to feat value).
Kirth Gersen wrote: The base DC for combat maneuvers is absurdly high. DC 11 + CMB would put the attacker and defender on even footing. To skew things in the defender's favor a bit, DC 12 + CMB would be fine. DC 15 + CMB means that, against level-appropriate opponents, PCs should not bother attempting maneuvers. Precisely. That's why advocate higher CMB bonuses (+4 for Monks, +4 for mastery feats, creation of general CM mastery feat, adding damage to maneuvers).
Another proposal was to change CMB formula to:
BAB/2 + Ability bonus + Size modifier + Feat modifier
And use 10 as base DC for resisting.
Regards,
Ruemere
ruemere wrote: Moving with someone else, when you just want to throw them off the ledge, does not seem to be very appealing. You may also attempt to use grappled target as an improvised throwing weapon. Finally, since there is no size limitation, you may use grapple for throwing stuff held by other people (two people vying for a weapon, one of them simply trying to make the weapon fall as far as possible, the other wanting to regain control over it).
(revised as per your proposal)
New grapple option: Throw. Opposed CM check. Throw grappled object or opponent, 5' per 4 points by which you beat DC. Failure does not break grapple.
To maintain a grapple, you NEED to make a Grapple check.
If you were already Grappling, you get to do certain things (Move, Pin) FOR FREE.
(there's ambiguity about Grapple currently, but it doesn't matter for this)
So adding a Throw option should justly be another "Free" option, not requiring another Roll.
(if multiple Grapple Attacks/per Round (Iterative) are allowed, then those WOULD be separate Rolls)
If that roll already beat the DC by 4?, then for every 4? over, you could Throw the opponent 5'.
You don't move, nobody is Grappled anymore, the Thrown opponent is Prone.
I believe there's rules for Bullrushing an opponent into another one (determining if 2nd opponent falls down, etc), and those seem appropriate to apply to this as well.
I don't think damage should be included, though if they FALL more than 10', normal Falling damage would apply.
ruemere wrote:
+4 also makes Monks better than fighters at 1st level, but only marginally better at 10th level (BAB progression difference). With very high maneuver DCs, to make the maneuvers worth using, one has to show some real love to wimpiest class in game.
I think your're forgetting this:
PFRPG Beta, page 29 wrote:
Maneuver Training (Ex): At 3rd level, a monk uses his monk level in place of his base attack bonus when calculating his combat maneuver bonus. Base attack bonuses granted from other classes are unaffected and are added normally.
ruemere wrote:
2. Love for Monks.
Monks gain +4 competence bonus on Combat Maneuvers.
The bonus is improved to +8 at 11th level and +12 at 16th.
Monks are allowed to use Wisdom instead of Dexterity or Strength for the purpose of calculating CMB.
Imho even with a medium BAB this would be way way way over the top. A level 11 monk with a CMB of 16+Wis bonus would be virtually unresistable.
Quandary wrote: ruemere wrote: [...](revised as per your proposal)
New grapple option: Throw. Opposed CM check. Throw grappled object or opponent, 5' per 4 points by which you beat DC. Failure does not break grapple.
To maintain a grapple, you NEED to make a Grapple check.
If you were already Grappling, you get to do certain things (Move, Pin) FOR FREE.
(there's ambiguity about Grapple currently, but it doesn't matter for this)
So adding a Throw option should justly be another "Free" option, not requiring another Roll. Grapple option chosen may influence type of grapple check used and grapple status. For example, succesful grapple check for Throw would break grapple.
Quandary wrote: (if multiple Grapple Attacks/per Round (Iterative) are allowed, then those WOULD be separate Rolls) Definitely, though I am in favor of a single grapple check per round, and possibly multiple attacks done to grappled target at an appropriate penalty.
Allowing more than one grapple check may result in silliness of grapple abuse (like snake with Fighter levels doing multiple constricts per round).
Quandary wrote: If that roll already beat the DC by 4?, then for every 4? over, you could Throw the opponent 5'. A bit too vague.
"For every 4' points you exceed target DC, throw opponent 5'."
So beating DC by 1-3 - you drop opponent in the square you're holding her.
Beating DC by 4-7 - opponent lands 5' further from original square. And so on.
Quandary wrote: You don't move, nobody is Grappled anymore, the Thrown opponent is Prone. Ok, good idea with that Prone status.
Quandary wrote: I believe there's rules for Bullrushing an opponent into another one (determining if 2nd opponent falls down, etc), and those seem appropriate to apply to this as well. Bull Rush is takes a standard action or may be a part of charge action. It cannot become a part of Grapple CM, it is also not usable for cases where the additional attacks should be available.
Quandary wrote: I don't think damage should be included, though if they FALL more than 10', normal Falling damage would apply. Yes. And it is already handled by Falling rules, so there is no need to include it here.
Revised Throw (v3.0)
---- Grapple: Throw (v3.0)
New grapple option: Throw. Opposed CM check. Throw grappled object or creature, 5' per 4 points by which you beat DC (beating DC by 1, 2 or 3 points results in target landing in the square where grapple check occurred). Thrown creature is knocked prone and grapple ends. Failure does not break grapple.
----
Regards,
Ruemere
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