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There have been suggestions in other threads that Bards should get options depending on the kinds of performers they are i.e., Bards who are trained a certain way would get certain abilities.
I think that the rogue talent mechanic would be the best way to articulate this.
BARD TALENTS:
Obviously talents requiring a perform check will need a fairly high DC.
While rogues get ten talents over all, Bards might be limited to 5. I'm thinking one every four levels. This way, Bards have the opportunity to truly be the jack of all trades. It will also allow for tonnes of customization with no loss of flavour. It also keeps the perform skill from being pointless.
These are interesting... I think I like.
I like it as well. It creates a diversity of bards
Thanks! I wanted to allow for a variety of backgrounds. A Bard who's raised in a church doing devotional music would have different abilities than a bard who grew up in a rural area close to a druidic tradition or a bard who's part of a thieves' guild. Also, I wanted a way for Bards to increase their spells known slightly or gain access to other classes' abilities through the perform skill. This could be expanded to skill and feat selection as well as enhance roleplaying/backstory creation.
I like this as well. I think this is the way to go towards fixing the bard. Also I think the bard should get a talent at level 1 (not sure if that was your intention all along).
Great. More talents could be added.
I suggest
- musician gain one bonus transmutation bonus spell of a level you can cast from any list
I would also give them trapfinding, Evasion and Weapon and Armor Proficiency: longbows (including composite longbows).
I agree with Black Tom, the bard should get a talent at level 1.
And I agree with Zark on all points.
I think giving the bard a talent at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 would be neat, but I definitely think trapfinding should be one of them. Casting Find traps once a day won't cut it. But the talents look promising. The skill bonus feats would make good sense as talents, as would Dodge and some other defensive feats.
I think giving the bard a talent at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 would be neat, but I definitely think trapfinding should be one of them. Casting Find traps once a day won't cut it. But the talents look promising. The skill bonus feats would make good sense as talents, as would Dodge and some other defensive feats.
I say: first talent at lvl 1 and then at every dead lvl.
Bard talents: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.And yes I do think lvl 19 is a dead lvl
/Zark
I think giving the bard a talent at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 would be neat, but I definitely think trapfinding should be one of them. Casting Find traps once a day won't cut it. But the talents look promising. The skill bonus feats would make good sense as talents, as would Dodge and some other defensive feats.I say: first talent at lvl 1 and then at every dead lvl.
Bard talents: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.
And yes I do think lvl 19 is a dead lvl
/Zark
every dead level sounds about right
I would give them trapfinding definately. Same as Ranger
I think giving the bard a talent at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20 would be neat, but I definitely think trapfinding should be one of them. Casting Find traps once a day won't cut it. But the talents look promising. The skill bonus feats would make good sense as talents, as would Dodge and some other defensive feats.I say: first talent at lvl 1 and then at every dead lvl.
Bard talents: 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19.
And yes I do think lvl 19 is a dead lvl
/Zark
every dead level sounds about right
I would give them trapfinding definately. Same as Ranger
See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
I think it's an interesting concept but it sounds a little too complicated. On an unrelated note, my suggestions for bardic talents in that thread are probably too powerful to give out every third level.
I think it's an interesting concept but it sounds a little too complicated. On an unrelated note, my suggestions for bardic talents in that thread are probably too powerful to give out every third level.See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
well i dont think its any more complicated then sorceror bloodlines , in fact it would work very similar, except you would choose more than one "bloodline" (path) as the character progresses. It allows the bard build to be versatile, with a little more "buff" where needed.
Those who want to play skill mongers could drop say charming perform in exchange for even more skill points (and class skills)
Those who dontlike the spell casting could drop that and pick up master of blades because they want to be more effective in combat and maybe qualify for duelist someday.
either way it would be no more complex than bloodlines, with the exception that you would have more than one as you leveled up, but most of the things that bards already are or have would be in there, they simply would be available for "trade" in exchange for other "paths" of equal potency.
By way of writing the paths,we could add the little extra oomph, we all think the bard needs, but as everyone thinks the bard lacks something different, wecould all choose the path that allows (and excludes) what we all want.
on another note, someone mentioned in a relatedthread what do you use as a healer in a party that is mostly urbany sneaky and stealth like?
I would say use a bard but just dont play instruments (just because you can do it doesnt mean you have to) OR of course a cleric that worships a god of rogues?
I think it's an interesting concept but it sounds a little too complicated. On an unrelated note, my suggestions for bardic talents in that thread are probably too powerful to give out every third level.See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
Like Pendagast, I don't think it would be so much more complicated than sorcerer's bloodlines, wizard's schools or cleric's domains. I personally call them bard colleges (to tie in with 1st ed bards) but hey, different label, same product...
'findel
I think it's an interesting concept but it sounds a little too complicated. On an unrelated note, my suggestions for bardic talents in that thread are probably too powerful to give out every third level.See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
Like Pendagast, I don't think it would be so much more complicated than sorcerer's bloodlines, wizard's schools or cleric's domains. I personally call them bard colleges (to tie in with 1st ed bards) but hey, different label, same product...
'findel
YES! even better, COLLEGES! awesome, that would really tie in and give the flavor that the bards actually study these specfic things.
I like it... could be really really cool.anyone have better, stonger ideas for the separate colleges?
Im still thinking: Spells, Music/Performance, Uber Skill, Combat, Legend/Lore, any more I'm thinking we need 8
I think it's an interesting concept but it sounds a little too complicated. On an unrelated note, my suggestions for bardic talents in that thread are probably too powerful to give out every third level.See my post on how to fix the bard, for an idea related to this, I called it bard paths.
see what you think.
hm, Black Tom you're might be right. Every third level might be too powerful. Perhaps 1, 5, 10, 15, 20 is better. Or make them lesser / greater talents.
I don't like the concept of bard paths. it's to rigid. I like the concept of The bard as jack of all trades.
I don't think bard paths can be compared to the Sorcerer Bloodlines.
The Sorcerer works as a class, and the Sorcerer concept is clear. But the Bard doesn't work and the concept is unclear work. Building fixed/rigid paths from a concept that doesn't work is not something I like. Talents on the other hand can be added as you lvl up and you can build him/her as you move along. Maybe you like the bard but you need trapfinding to make it work. Then talents is the way to go. Then you can pick nother talents to boost the bard you're buildning. Dynamic and a bit more "jack of all trade" like.
I think the Bard talent concept is superior to bard colleges.
I don't like the bloodline/ colleges idea as an alternative to Talents. It's not versatile enough (Once you chosen you path your stuck), but colleges as a complement to talents might be nice.
:-)
Especially if the colleges are more of a flawour thing.
But as I said. I don't like colleges as an alternative to talents.
Talents on the other hand "is a great way to diversify bards" as Black Tom put it (see thread: Thoughts on how to fix the bard).
But one might make some talents a Prereq. for other talents.
As I've said before: I like the Jack of all trade Bard.
I would only give the bard a little more versatillity, a littel bost and some way to diversify The Bards, and talenst is a great idea.
/Zark aka TomJohn
I think the Bard talent concept is superior to bard colleges.
I don't like the bloodline/ colleges idea as an alternative to Talents. It's not versatile enough (Once you chosen you path your stuck), but colleges as a complement to talents might be nice.
:-)
Especially if the colleges are more of a flawour thing.
But as I said. I don't like colleges as an alternative to talents.Talents on the other hand "is a great way to diversify bards" as Black Tom put it (see thread: Thoughts on how to fix the bard).
But one might make some talents a Prereq. for other talents.
As I've said before: I like the Jack of all trade Bard.
I would only give the bard a little more versatillity, a littel bost and some way to diversify The Bards, and talenst is a great idea.
/Zark aka TomJohn
Id like to see a mechanic for drop/add as well though.
say your bard doesnt cast spells but is one heck of a pied piper, more charm/perform abilites (focus) in exchange for loosing spell casting.
Or more powerful legend/lore for dropping perform. etc etc.
Thats where I see the paths comming in, focus on one thing for drop of another (while still getting the base stuff)
Then the talents can buff the bard who, arguably already needs a boost.
I was thinking that the talents would be add with the colleges... not a one or the other case.
I'm not expecting either to have a huge impact, but when you have a caster that isn't a full caster, doesn't have the buffs available to the cleric the BAB of a fighter and is pretty middle of the road and bland (mechanically) then I don't think adding this sort of stuff is over the top.
I was thinking that the talents would be add with the colleges... not a one or the other case.
I'm not expecting either to have a huge impact, but when you have a caster that isn't a full caster, doesn't have the buffs available to the cleric the BAB of a fighter and is pretty middle of the road and bland (mechanically) then I don't think adding this sort of stuff is over the top.
Ill have to agree to that, but I still think taking a college should be like a specilist wizard,making the chosen path better,while sacraficing (excluding) another. Then make bard talents available to all colleges. The generalist college could be exactly the way the bard is currently. (and he would still get access to talents too)
agreed... or that each college requires skill point expenditure as it stands now for bardic music.
If each college requires the points it becomes a question of which you want: A lot of skills or specific class abilities... I don't mind that if there are alot to choose from.
Ill have to agree to that, but I still think taking a college should be like a specilist wizard,making the chosen path better,while sacraficing (excluding) another. Then make bard talents available to all colleges. The generalist college could be exactly the way the bard is currently. (and he would still get access to talents too)
While I often make the parallel between Bardic Colleges and Arcane Schools, a closer relationship could be made with Cleric Domains and Sorcerer Bloodlines: Bardic Colleges are add-on rather than specializations. They should take the class one way or another without prohibiting anything.
[EDIT] That is the way I see Colleges. Bardic Colleges do not exist (as far as the official rules goes), so they could be anything really...[/EDIT]
That being said, I thing that Colleges and Talents could work beautifully hand-in-hand. My house-ruled iteration of the bard use both, except that I used bard talents differently from the OP. Those that I conceived were a bit more "mundane" in nature, such as the ability to pick-up a local accent or dialect, to gather info without raising suspicion or attention, to gain benefit from multiple Perform skills used simultaneously (as in singing AND playing) and a few others that would be moot in the context of the Pathfinder skill rules.
'findel
Ill have to agree to that, but I still think taking a college should be like a specilist wizard,making the chosen path better,while sacraficing (excluding) another. Then make bard talents available to all colleges. The generalist college could be exactly the way the bard is currently. (and he would still get access to talents too)
While I often make the parallel between Bardic Colleges and Arcane Schools, a closer relationship could be made with Cleric Domains and Sorcerer Bloodlines: Bardic Colleges are add-on rather than specializations. They should take the class one way or another without prohibiting anything.
[EDIT] That is the way I see Colleges. Bardic Colleges do not exist (as far as the official rules goes), so they could be anything really...[/EDIT]
That being said, I thing that Colleges and Talents could work beautifully hand-in-hand. My house-ruled iteration of the bard use both, except that I used bard talents differently from the OP. Those that I conceived were a bit more "mundane" in nature, such as the ability to pick-up a local accent or dialect, to gather info without raising suspicion or attention, to gain benefit from multiple Perform skills used simultaneously (as in singing AND playing) and a few others that would be moot in the context of the Pathfinder skill rules.
'findel
Whenever you see a variant class, like say a demon hunter ranger variant class, they always drop something like spell casting to pick up something else, like using a cleric like ability to turn demons.
The colleges could be used so that everytime you see a bard, he's not wearing tights and a robin hood hat singing fa-la-la-la and he can expect exactly the same things out of him everytime.
What if I dont want to sing, dance, juggle, tell jokes or pantomime?
MAYbe, POSSibly, a skald type would play drums or a bagpipe, but using that type of music to countersong a siren is quite a stretch.
What about the menacing bard, what is he going to do with music? Have lurch follow him around with a harpsicord on wheels?
The bard as he currently is, is weak, take a way music and he might as well be an expert.
The music part is already weak as it is ( when i say music i mean perform)
Give players a chance to play a character that isnt totally based on performing. The 1e bard that was an ASPECT of the character. NOT the center of it.
Allow players to trade something that sucks (and it will either always suck or be over powered with everyone falling for whatever the bard wants...i can not see a balance in mind control anything) for something that may simply suck just as much, game mechanics wise, but is at least MORE interesting to them.
They wont kill more monsters with more legend/lore.
The treasure wont come to them quicker by bullying the bar maid with their uber intimidate.
And the skald can flash the army from under his kilt all he wants, they army is still going to stick an arrow in his butt, but All those other types of bards dont "loose" a part of thheir character because they dont want to perform, but want the other things the bard can do, and possibly see some other uses for it.
Likewise, an uber perform bard, could play a better flute if he traded his spell casting for more intense, or frequent song abilites. Or whatever.
Those who want to play the generalist could, but those who complained about not enough song powers, could trade in skills, or spells for more lyre playing.
Or the skald could trade the lyre for more weapon choices or whatever.
PErsonally, I could see all these types still performing,its just what they can DO with the perform seems lame.(to me)
But by making the perform more powerful, you make it too powerful, so Like I said, allow it to be traded for or against (ie IF you want a REALLY pwoerful perform, you sacraficed spells to get it, for example)
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Here is a revised version of my idea:
At 1st level and every three levels thereafter, a Bard selects from the following talents. At 15th level, a Bard can also choose from among 5 advanced talents. At least two talents must be of the same type.
DEVOTIONAL MUSIC:
- Hymnist: channel positive energy for a number of points equal to your perform check result
- Faith healer: use perform(oratory) to give allies within 30ft. to gain fast healing/3.
- Affirmations : use perform (oratory) to give a single ally the benefit of restoration
THEATRE:
- Stage combat: use perform (acting) to gain benefit of a combat feat of an ally for one round.
- Character study: gain alter self as a bonus spell known
- Pantomime: use any non vocal perform skill to cast spells without a vocal component as if with the silent spell feat.
FOREST CHILD:
- Pied Piper: gain animal companion as a Ranger of the same level
- Folk music: use wild empathy with a musical perform check
- Faerie magic : gain one bonus enchantment spell known of a level you can cast from any spell list
THEIVERY:
- Scoundrel: gain the trapfinding ability as a rogue of the same level
- Dancer: gain evasion with a successful perform(dance) check
- Larceny: gain Deceitful and Deft hands as bonus feats
COMEDIA:
- Clown: use perform (comdey) to gain a luck bonus of half your level on your next saving throw.
- Punchline: use perform (comedy) to reduce a target’s armor class by 1
- Juggler: gain Throw Anything and Snatch arrows as bonus feats
ACADEMIA:
- Storyteller: gain one bonus divination spell known of a level you can cast from any spell list
- Know-it-all: gain one additional daily use of the loremaster ability
- Thesis: when you observe a spell being cast and identify it with the spellcraft skill, you can write it up (as per the scribe scroll feat) as a bonus feat within 12 hours of having seen the spell being cast.
MUSIC :
- Maestro: gain +1 DC on all evocation (sonic) spells. Stacks with feats that increase DC
- Sotto Voce: gain +1 DC on all enchantment spells. Stacks with feats that increase DC
- Virtuoso: gain one bonus evocation (sonic) spell known of a level you can cast from any spell list
ADVANCED TALENTS:
- Improved inspirataion: All bonuses afforded by inspire courage, competence and heroics all increase by +1
- Irresistable: The DCs of all Bardic performances increase by 1.
- Painkiller: Soothing performance now functions as Cure moderate wounds.
- Improved Coutersong: Counter song can now be used to dispel all enchantment effects in a 30ft. range on DC 35
- Improved distraction: Distraction can now be used to dispel all illusion effects in a 30ft. range on DC 35
I like.
I just want to say that I really like this idea. I would love to see this or something very similar to this get added to the final Bard in August. I had a couple of questions:
1) Has anyone from Paizo taking a look at this idea as a possibility for the final version of the Bard?
2) In you description, would it not be better to say at 1st level and every 3rd level that the Bard gets a new talent? As it reads right now it makes me think that the bard gets talents at 1st, 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, and 19th; so he would not get any talents at 15th level. Of course it is after 2 a.m. and i'm still at work, so I could just be reading this wrong.
Here is a revised version of my idea:
At 1st level and every three levels thereafter, a Bard selects from the following talents. At 15th level, a Bard can also choose from among 5 advanced talents. At least two talents must be of the same type.
Thank you! I was thinking about the ideas people had for bardic colleges and thought about dividing the talents into themes as well as requiring bards to pick at least 2 or 3 from the same theme.
I should have been clearer. I meant for the talents to fill most of the dead levels. While a bard wouldn't get a talent at level 15, after level 15, s/he'll be able to select the last few talents from the advanced list.
We also need a dance school for those break dancing bards out there who get the crowd riled up when they are "steppin 2 da street" or who can amaze a court with an elegant waltz.
i realy like the idea of bard talents
but a better progression of spells is a must for this class
one thing i would like to see the bard do is duplicate a spell using spellcraft and an musical instrument
something like (spell harmonics)
so this way he could cast the spell he just heard or amplify it in some way or with a very hard DC add it to his spells known or scribe it has as a magicaly charged partition for later use