Hello. So I have been converting my 3.5 druid over to PF and have found an interesting thing: Apes seem somewhat underpowered in the scheme of things.
I have listed the highlights for standard/dire/legendary versions for the apes vs the tigers below. There is not rule of thumb/consistancy between them.
Ape:base CR-2; 4 HD; Attack Damage [AD] 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Dire Ape: CR-3 (a 50% increase from ape); 5 HD (a 25% increase from ape); [AD] 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d8+3)
Legendary Ape: CR-13 (550% increase from ape); 7 HD (75% increase from ape); [AD]2 claws +19 melee (1d8+10) and bite + 14 melee (2d6+5)
whereas the Tigers
Tiger: CR-4; 6 HD; [AD] 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (2d6+3)
Dire tiger: CR-8 (100% increase from tiger; 16 HD (167% increase from tiger; [AD] 2 claws +20 melee (2d4+8) and bite +14 melee (2d6+4)
Legendary tiger: CR-10(150% increase from tiger); 26 HD (333% increase from tiger); [AD] 2 claws +29 melee 2d6+11, and bite +24 melee 2d8+5
It is almost like there was no rhyme or reason behind creating dire and legendary animal stats. One thing I have found is for the ape to gain 3- 3.5 feet in height and 500 - 900lbs to only gain 22 str from 21 for the Ape) and thus only do 1 additional point of damage per claw per round makes no sense to me. Especially when the Dire tiger increases by 4 strength for the jump to dire.
Why does the Legendary Ape loose a size category?
I just hope that Paizo takes a look at these type of factors when they re-evaluate everything with the new beastiary. Even Dire/legendary templates would help us keep a consistency and we could use it for animals without a dire equiv.
Here is a more complete breakdown of the progressions.
A standard run ove the mill ape in 3.5 is
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 4d8+11
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. climb 30 ft.
Armor Class: 14 flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: Claws +7 melee (1d6+5)
Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +6, Spot +6
Feats: Alertness, Toughness
While Dire Ape only changes the following:
Hit Dice: 5d8+13 (35 hp)
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 15 ft.
Armor Class: 15; touch 11,flat-footed 13
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+13
Attack: Claw +8 melee (1d6+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+6) and bite +3 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: Rend 2d6+9
Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +5
Abilities: Str 22, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
Skills: Climb +14, Listen +5, Move Silently +4, Spot +6
Advancement: 6–15 HD (Large)
The Legendary Ape make even less sense (only 1 hd and 1CR more than a legendary Eagle?):
Medium-Size Animal (Why did the best example of the animal per the fluff take a size hit?)
13d8+39 (97 hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
Armor Class: 19 touch 13, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
Attack: 2 claws +19 melee and bite + 14
Claw 1d8+10, bite 2d6+5
Special Attack: Rend 2d8+15
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +11
Abilities: Str 30, Dex 17, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11
Skills: Climb +19, Move Silently +11, Spot +9
Feats: none
Now let's take a look at the tiger progression:
Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11,
flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+14
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (2d6+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d8+3
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +6, Hide +3*, Listen +3, Move Silently +9, Spot
+3, Swim +11
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Improved
Natural Attack (claw)
Environment: Warm forests
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 4
Advancement: 7–12 HD (Large); 13–18 HD (Huge)
While the Dire Tiger:
Hit Dice: 16d8+48 (120 hp)
Armor Class: 17 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 11,
flat-footed 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +12/+24
Attack: Claw +20 melee (2d4+8)
Full Attack: 2 claws +20 melee (2d4+8) and bite +14 melee
(2d6+4)
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 2d4+4
Saves: Fort +13, Ref +12, Will +11
Abilities: Str 27, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 10
Skills: Hide +7*, Jump +14, Listen +6, Move Silently +11, Spot
+7, Swim +10
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved
Natural Attack (bite), Run, Stealthy, Weapon Focus (claw)
Challenge Rating: 8
Advancement: 17–32 HD (Large); 33–48 (Huge)Level Adjustment:
And the legendary Tiger:
Hit Dice: 26d8+182 (299 hp)
(299 hp) 30d8+210 (345 hp)
Initiative: +4
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 23 (–1 size, +4 Dex, +10 natural),touch 13, flat-footed 19
Attacks: 2 claws +29 melee and bite +24 melee
Damage: Claw 2d6+11, bite 2d8+5
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 2d6+5
Saves: Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +17
Abilities: Str 33, Dex 18, Con 24, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 11
Skills: Hide +8*, Jump +15, Listen +5, Move Silently +12,Spot +7, Swim +14
Challenge Rating: 10
And if you think that's bad, start with a hill giant, and see how close to a mountain giant (Monster Manual II) you can get using the monster advancement rules.
And why was the aurumvorax (as debuted on the WotC web site) weaker than a dire badger?
Overall, it seems that very few people bothered to look at similar (or even nearly identical) existing monsters when they were statting up new ones.
Ugh. Don't get me started on Animals and Vermin. Vermin in particular need to be re-written - they are basically just insect-shaped constructs right now. They really should become a sub-category of Animals and be given abilities that at least somewhat reflect how they work IRL (like Scorpions having Blindsense and Tremorsense, for example).
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I have listed the highlights for standard/dire/legendary versions for the apes vs the tigers below. There is not rule of thumb/consistancy between them.
Legendary animals are a 3.0 attempt to give high-level druids decent animal companions. Under 3.0 there were no rules for animal companion advancement, you just received more HD of companions as you advanced in level. So instead of having 8 dire apes, you got one legendary ape. The legendary animals were also smaller than their dire counterparts due to comments that a huge-sized dire tiger or bear took up too much room in a dungeon. As a direct result of the 3.5 animal companion rules, the legendary animals were never adapted to the updated rules.
As a fun aside (and shameless PFRPG plug) check out the new beta rules on animal companions under the Cleric/Druid/Paladin playtest forums under "[Design Focus] animal companions"
Ryn, who always wanted a legendary horse
Legendary animals are a 3.0 attempt to give high-level druids decent animal companions. Under 3.0 there were no rules for animal companion advancement, you just received more HD of companions as you advanced in level. So instead of having 8 dire apes, you got one legendary ape. The legendary animals were also smaller than their dire counterparts due to comments that a huge-sized dire tiger or bear took up too much room in a dungeon.I have listed the highlights for standard/dire/legendary versions for the apes vs the tigers below. There is not rule of thumb/consistancy between them.
Still doesn't explain why the legendary Ape was medium when the standard ape was Large. It should have at least been large.