Dead Levels in General Levels


General Discussion (Prerelease)


The Pathfinder RPG has been very good at eliminating dead levels and this is a very positive change. Every class now gets something every level be it a new level of spells or Armor Mastery or a talent or a bonus feat or some other ability.

By the same token, the Generalized Progression (which I sometimes call General Levels) that is universal for all classes also grants something at every level... almost: Every odd level grants a feat and every 4th level grants an ability score increase.

That leaves levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 (and 22 and every 4th level thereafter if we extend the progression to levels beyond level 20), where the general level itself does not grant anything to the character.

This is not a major problem, because class levels still grant their thing, but it is a slight design anomaly, and what can I say... I am a perfectionist and like elegant design.

As such, I would like to propose some ideas as to what could be granted by those general levels. Two things come to mind immediately: Skill Bonus Increases and Ability Score Increases.


Here come the two ideas I have for filling the dead general levels:

Idea 1: Skill Bonus Increases:

The class skill bonus could increase by +1 every 4 levels, starting at level 2. If the original +3 bonus at level 1 were retained, the 5 increases at levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 would bring it to +8 by level 20. This may sound like a lot, but consider the fact that the synergy bonus between skills from 3.5E no longer applies and if these were added up, for some skills they could even exceed the extra +5 this rule would provide for class skills.

(Note: Also, I am not so keen on the +2/+2 feats (which provide another way to boost skills to higher levels) that needlessly try to tie some skills together conceptually and that I would not mind to see eliminated to save book space for more flavorful feats, abilities and rules. Skill focus is the skill boosting feat - there is no need for more stackable ones... but that is perhaps a discussion for another topic and eliminating these feats is not necessary to implement the increasing class skill bonus.)


Idea 2: Ability Score Increases:

Characters currently get a +1 increase to one ability score of their choice at level 4 and at every 4th level thereafter. For some time now (way back to when 4E was not even to be announced for a long time yet), I have seen calls to enable more increases of ability scores. Star Wars Saga and 4E both heeded this call, but enabling characters to increase two ability scores by one point each at level 4 and every 4 levels thereafter. This is, however, not particularly elegant, because concentrating both of those increases to a single level only increases the suddenness of the ability score increase... now the pattern is 0-0-0-2 instead of the previous 0-0-0-1.

The solution would be to permit more frequent ability increases, rather than concentrating two of them at the same level. This fits well, with the dead general levels that come at levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18 (and, naturally, level 22 and every 4 levels thereafter for levels beyond 20), which lie right in-between the levels that grant ability score increases and would thus provide a following pattern: 0-1-0-1.

Of course, the reason the two ability score increases were relegated to the same level in Star Wars Saga and 4E is that it is important for reasons of balance to prevent the character from increasing the same ability score twice and it would be a pain to track which ability score was increased at what level between levels, so it seems simpler to have both ability score increases at the same level.

There is, however, a solution to this problem. Every character could chose a primary ability score at level 1. This ability score would be marked on the character sheet and increase automatically at levels 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, 18 (and every 4 levels after 18). The player would still chose an ability score to increase at levels 4, 8, 12, 16 and 20 (and every 4 levels after 20), but the increase could not be assigned to the primary ability score. This would ensure that balance would not be thrown out of whack, spread out the ability point increases, fill the general dead levels and enable easy tracking.

The downside of both of my proposals, of course, is that they increase general power level of the game.


What if at those dead levels you could choose one skill and it becomes a class skill?

Scarab Sages

Or how about choosing an additional Trait?

Maybe also limit these additional Trait selections to Racial Traits?

Hmmm ..


I don't know if this really solves the problem, but what I do that I haven't seen around here is to just pull a 4E: make it so Ability Increases come every three levels (like old feats did), and let it give a +1 bonus to two separate ability scores. So far its helped ween players off of the more bland items that just give generic stat boosts (Gloves of Dexterity, Cloak of Charisma, etc.) and allowed them to spend their money on other things.

It's actually not as much of a power boost as some think, and it's gone over well with my players.

So, now, all these levels grant something:

1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 15, 17, 18, 19, and 21

Which leaves: 2, 4, 8, 10, 14, 16, and 20, as "dead" levels. I guess I would just be interested in what you guys thought of it.

EDIT: I just realized that this doesn't solve the problem by any means, hah! It actually leaves slightly more dead levels and grants more at certain levels. Ah well, sorry, I miscounted how many dead levels we actually start with :[


I'm not in favor of adding even more power to PCs just to address a perceived issue of symmetry.

If they get something at every class level, then they get something at every level.


I am fine with more ability score increases along with eliminating the ability score magic items.


one way to make race matter a bit more would be if, at the dead levels, skill points could be spend to increase racial boni.

i.e. a dwarf could 'spend' one skill point to increase the Perception bonus from Stonecunning from +2 to +3

or assign 2 or 3 skills to each race where the max of skill points gradually increases beyond the 'level+3'


Agi Hammerthief wrote:

one way to make race matter a bit more would be if, at the dead levels, skill points could be spend to increase racial boni.

i.e. a dwarf could 'spend' one skill point to increase the Perception bonus from Stonecunning from +2 to +3

or assign 2 or 3 skills to each race where the max of skill points gradually increases beyond the 'level+3'

Or you could just make it so each race has a special thing they gain at those levels. Perhaps starting off with just a +1 to existing abilities the race has, and then maybe later branching out a bit more into some skills similar to the racial paragon classes.


snoffles wrote:
Or you could just make it so each race has a special thing they gain at those levels. Perhaps starting off with just a +1 to existing abilities the race has, and then maybe later branching out a bit more into some skills similar to the racial paragon classes.

I do agree with toyrobots's sentiment of not giving PCs more stuff for free for the appearance of symetry.

expanding the limits of skills related to race would go well with the way favoured classes are handled now, i.e. you have some place obvious to put that extra skill point you get for taking a level in the Favored Class.


Quote:
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I don't think this is a good idea. PRPG characters already have a power creep. Giving them additional bang to their bang would be too much. I'm already somewhat sceptical about the increase in the number of feats at each odd level...


Symmetry is overrated. No dead class levels is a good aim. But general benefits need not follow - not if we have to introduce weird stuff just for symmetry's sake.

grrtigger wrote:

Or how about choosing an additional Trait?

Traits are for 1st level only, and should remain that way. You don't suddenly gain a background of having spent your youth in a temple.

Roman wrote:


There is, however, a solution to this problem. Every character could chose a primary ability score at level 1. This ability score would be marked on the character sheet and increase automatically at levels 2, 4, 6, 10, 14, 18 (and every 4 levels after 18).

No. Limits character choice: Instead of a choice of having several equally important ability scores, you're forced to favour one.

I much prefer the +1 to 2 every 4, if we need anything.

Roman wrote:


The class skill bonus could increase by +1 every 4 levels, starting at level 2.

Nah. Sure, there are no more synergy bonuses, but they weren't universal, anyway. There is an extra bonus to the skill focus and skilled feats: At level 10, the bonus doubles. I think that's a good enough offset for synergy.

Roman wrote:


(Note: Also, I am not so keen on the +2/+2 feats

Me neither. Replace them with one skill - Skilled. Saves space.


blope wrote:
I am fine with more ability score increases along with eliminating the ability score magic items.

I like that! Use the OP's levels to raise ability scores and/or saves. Then drastically increase the cost of resistance and stat boost items -- maybe to double what they are (or more). Then characters still have the "appropriate" stats for their level, but stat-boost items stop being mandatory for all PCs.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
blope wrote:
I am fine with more ability score increases along with eliminating the ability score magic items.
I like that! Use the OP's levels to raise ability scores and/or saves. Then drastically increase the cost of resistance and stat boost items -- maybe to double what they are (or more). Then characters still have the "appropriate" stats for their level, but stat-boost items stop being mandatory for all PCs.

I like that too!

I debated with myself whether to even post these suggestions, precisely because of my power-creep concerns (which I actually do mention at the end of my post), but this would help resolve this issue. It is especially the case since I dislike dependence on magic items.

Maybe... the bonus could even be classified as enhancement bonus to prevent stacking with magic items, though this might be pushing the idea too far, perhaps just do what you said - drastically increase the resource costs of stat-boosting items.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
blope wrote:
I am fine with more ability score increases along with eliminating the ability score magic items.

Ditto, Magic Items w/ability scores become must haves for must have for NPCs and ensures no one can use the cool items because they need to have the stat items to keep pace.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

What about at 2, 6, 10, 14, 18 +1 to your "core stat" (chosen at level 1, perhaps further restricted to the a stat that is a racial bonus stat (or the stat you choose as your racial bonus for humans) and 4, 8, 12, 16, 20 +1 to all stats. This coupled with an out right ban on +stat items.

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