Skills, like any other resource in game, can be classifed by degrees of utility:
1) Must (****): The character needs to possess this skill in order to function.
2) Basic (***): Skills most characters will need for smooth progress throughout an adventure regardless of class.
3) Circumstantial (**): Skills that, while not necessary, they're still useful, and will get you out of a tight spot at the right time.
4) Largely Circumstantial (*): These ugly ducklings have but the most narrow of scopes, and are completely useless otherwise.
Following, is a listing of skills followed by a rating in stars according to their degree of usefulness. Note that I'm taking it as raw as possible.
Skills Listing
***Acrobatics: Basic survival. Adventurers are bound to come across three things: violence, physical challenges, and mental challenges. So if you're an adventurer you cover 2 basic needs with this skill. Even non-combatants can use the AC bonus to Full Defense, especially non-combatants.
*Appraise: Unless you're an arcane caster, this skill is only good if your gaming table has one of those GMs that loves to antagonize his players and is constantly out to get them by trying to sell them broken equipment, sub-standard spell components, and diseased horses... and even if you're an arcane caster, this skill is only good for casting Identify. Really, what was the purpose of supressing the skill tax that was the Scry skill if you're adding yet two more with Appraise and Fly?
**Bluff: This skill would usually be promoted to *** given how it can be used for Feinting in Combat, but then Charisma is usually known by the average player as the all-around Dump Stat, which makes the skill cost-ineffective unless you have it as a Class Skill.
**Climb: Granted, you won't be climbing all the time, not even most of the time, or plenty... but every adventure includes at least one physicall challenge where Climb becomes useful if not necessary.
*Craft: Your players may want to be blacksmiths, or alchemists, or even sculptors, but turns out they can't because the rules prohibit players from making a living off their work as they enforce that crafted goods can only be sold at half price (not trying to be dense myself, just quoting the book verbatim, I know it's silly). So the only thing the skill is good for is making equipment for yourself or the party, and then some GMs get pissy if the players don't devote 110% of their time saving the world or slaying monsters, so they penalize you for making time to devote to a trade by hasting the action and forcing you to chose between "stay and craft or go with the other PCs". Hardly worth it.
***Diplomacy: Eventually your PCs are coming across a city for whatever number of reasons. Every team needs a face, if only to reduce the prison sentences of the party's sociopath (there's always one). Add Gather Information to that, and the skill becomes a basic need.
**Disable Device: While not all adventures include traps for the party's Rogue, the ability to tamper with all things mechanical can still be of great use for clever players that think outside the box (sabotaging the enemy army's siege engines, setting their own trip-wire traps etc.).
**Disguise: "Subtlety" is not a word often asociated with the average fantasy gamer, so isn't "Covert Ops". If anyone here knows more than three PCs that have ever taken ranks in this skill let me know. A great skill for those who know how to make good use of it though.
**Escape Artist: God knows there are plenty of things worse than death, and the vast majority of them happen when you're captured. While the best solution is simply not getting captured, this skill is a close second best friend to have around. I'd promote it to *** because of their instant usefulness escaping grappling, but then it would be rather cheesy having everyone at the table being Harry Houdini.
*Fly: Really... you remove the tax from the Scry skill only to add Fly, and even adding Appraise as a new tax to spellcasters... I guess that's Paizo's way of saying they don't like diviners and flight spells, penalizing spellcasters for possessing such resources.
**Handle Animal: Shape that cheap mount into a warhorse, train your own warhdog for a low-levels extra action, or a hunting eagle or scent-tracking dog for a free Perception score. Requires time, but pays off if you're willing to investt it. Just make sure your GM isn't the type that hates companions "because they're overpowered".
***Heal: At least one character in the party must have this skill, especially in parties where no one wants to be the Cleric.
**Intimidate: An alternative to Diplomacy mechanics-wise that also has the combat use of Demoralize in Combat. If your character goes for the "generic badass" concept he needs this skill, in and out of combat.
**Knowledge(any): Knowledges are indeed useful, as long as you can be sure you'll be using said knowledge regularly, regardless of whether it is for your character's personal agenda or the main plot. There's also the dosey that each knowledge allows your character to know data of a monster type; sure, only a Bard could ever afford to be the party's Monster-know-it-all, but every bit helps.
**Linguistics: Golarion has plenty of languages, dungeons have books and walls in abyssal tongues. Linguistics is one of those skills you have no idea of how useful it can be until you have it.
***Perception: Another basic survival skill, from spotting sneaks to clues and details in your mistery murder, what's not to love?
****/*Perform: The first score (****) is if you're a Bard, no Perform, no Bard. The second score (*), obviously, if you're everything else, case in which this skill has no utility altogether other than doing something any other unskilled character can acomplish by whistling. To top it off, it goes to the obnoxious extreme of becoming (specific skill), so you're not only wasting skill points in a useless skill, you have to buy it twice, or more times.
*Profession: Unless you're playing a high-seas campaign (Sailor) or similar, narrow-scoped adventure, this is another of those skills that, without an in-game use, become worthless as they come.
*Ride: This skill would be more useful if GMs came up with more adventures that included ecuestrian chases and hazards, but as things are...
**Sense Motive: In social-driven adventures this skill becomes (***), if not (****), but then we're talking about the general case. While not that strong a skill to stand on its own, it's still an always-welcome (if not needed) complement for Diplomacy. The party's face should always have both skills.
**Sleight of Hand: What would become of your Escape Artist rolls without the +2 bonus provided by your masterwork picks you carefully concealed in your person prior to be captured. The ability to smuggle from a coin to a holdout weapon is never to be underestimated.
****/*Spellcraft: (Dual ranking same as Perform) While ranks in this skill are never useless, given the skill's ability to identify spells in progress as well as interpret rituals... it's likely your party may already have a spellcaster with a much higher Spellcraft rating thant that you'd ever achieve otherwise.
***Stealth: There are tasks the party's specialist in turn can do for the rest (Knowledges, Perception), and tasks you have to do yourself, hiding is one of those.
***Survival: Most adventures take you outdoors (even if only to move from place to place), and many adventures allow heroes to follow an antagonist's tracks. Even when there are no rangers in the group, at least one party member should have ranks in Survival in order to make their lives easier.
*Swim: I can't remember the last time I needed one of my characters to swim in order to acomplish something... mind you, I can't remember the first time either.
***Use Magic Device: Goes without saying, the ability to use any piece of the loot rocks.
Again, this is as raw as I could come up with, and my P.O.V might or might not be objective.
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i agree in msot points
mmm ok in my campaign my players learned form one time the wisdom o f learning swimming, and i almost lawyas take it... also i rarely use it
perform
craft
profession
efectively are wasted effort unless under very specific circumstances...
this 3 skill should be more useful definitively
or character should be less penaliced for taking them as part of background or characer concept
i like what they deed with apparaise
but i agree fly is a tax and one only useful under very strict circumstances
riding... i can not remeber an adventure that required me to use riding
*Ride: This skill would be more useful if GMs came up with more adventures that included ecuestrian chases and hazards, but as things are...
riding... i can not remeber an adventure that required me to use riding
A great example of Ride is Arwen arguing with Aragorn about who's the better rider, racing off to get the injured Frodo to Rivendell, then the black riders in hot pursuit. Great in a movie, maybe not so great in a game:
DM: The wraiths are closing in. Make a Ride check...
d20 skips and bounces merrily across the table, comes up 3.
Player: Uh...
DM scratches his head.
Excluding the 2 Must skills (which only apply for 2 classes), we have:
6 Basic-need skills every party MUST possess for a smooth sail:
-Acrobatics
-Diplomacy
-Heal
-Perception
-Stealth
-Survival
12 circumstantially useful skills, but an asset nonetheless. A party should have as many of these as possible:
-Bluff
-Climb
-Disable Device
-Disguise
-Escape Artist
-Handle Animal
-Intimidate
-Knowledge
-Linguistics
-Sense Motive
-Sleight of Hand
-Use Magic Device
And 8 skills which are only any good in the most limited and infrequent of cases. Only to be acquired if your character's concept absolutely needs it, or if you're a Human Rogue with high Intelligence and nothing else to spend your skill points on:
-Appraise
-Craft
-Fly
-Perform
-Profession
-Ride
-Spellcraft
-Swim
As you can see, from the 26 reviewed skills, almost one third lack active in-game use, becoming the least picked from the lot. GMs, feel free to compare with your players' character sheets. Then again, my P.O.V might or might not be objective.
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And 8 skills which are only any good in the most limited and infrequent of cases. Only to be acquired if your character's concept absolutely needs it, or if you're a Human Rogue with high Intelligence and nothing else to spend your skill points on:
-Appraise
-Craft
-Fly
-Perform
-Profession
-Ride
-Spellcraft
-Swim
Fly is a bizarre choice for a skill and I don't get the point.
Appraise is useful for getting a decent price for 'odd' treasure, but can be a little weak in game. I've thrown in some situations in games where it came in useful though - spotting a supposedly wealthy 'noble' had forged paintings in his study.
Craft and Profession are good from a role-playing point of view and any DM writing his own material will include opportunities for players to use these if the characters have them, since by using skill points on them they have shown that they obviously consider them an integral part of their characters personality.
Ride is almost essential in any game featuring mounted combat. Every game I've played that involved any form of wilderness travel involved mounted combat.
Swim : usually only taken if the characters come from a maritime environment. Probably the skill that most frequently provokes the comment "I wish I'd taken ranks in..." during games.
Generally a good analysis.
Interesting Analysis.
I would love to see those "/"s removed by clever design in the beta.
I would also rate Heal as 1 star, and note that you usually get someone in the party with a maxed out UMD and a wand of Cure.
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I would love to see those "/"s removed by clever design in the beta.I would also rate Heal as 1 star, and note that you usually get someone in the party with a maxed out UMD and a wand of Cure.
Make Perform as useful a skill to have for a non-bard as for a bard? That would be truly awesome, but I can't even begin to conceive of a mechanic!
There is a great discussion of Heal going on here. One nice idea is allowing a Heal check plus time plus resources to convert damage into Nonlethal damage, allowing quicker healing.
Make Perform as useful a skill to have for a non-bard as for a bard? That would be truly awesome, but I can't even begin to conceive of a mechanic!
Here's a shameless link to my idea that nobody liked!
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Here's a shameless link to my idea that nobody liked!
Not a bad idea. You lose the skill challenge 'dueling with banjos' possibility if perform isn't a feat, but (as you say) most Bards max out perform anyway. It's probably too dramatic a change for Pathfinder though.
However, I like the idea of synergy bonuses to some skills depending on ranks in a particular perform type. A thief who has already maxed out Bluff being able to improve his check by taking acting classes in the evening both feels right and has a nice story component.
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i still hate the idea that bards are thenonly ones who could 'perform' decently and get something for their money
a rogue could be a politician an need perform(oratory)
a cleric of Sanrarae would need perform (dancing)
a cleric of sheylin could use any perfrom or a decent craft
but in general... doing this can only be for RP... because its a suboptimal option in general
and punish such characters making it also a feat wouldonly be worse
i put some ideas HERE
that in general went ignored :P
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Heh, any campaign that heal is a *** skill is a strange one indead. The only time this skill is useful, even in parties without a cleric, is level 1-2. After that the skill is about as useful as sitting on a cactus. If you have a cleric at level 1-2 then the skill has no utility whatsoever. Now "should" it be a *** skill, I think it should and have argued several times for changes that would increase its utility, but otherwise. Unlimited stabilize and a wand of cure light wounds or curewort are more cost effective than the heal skill.
Here's a shameless link to my idea that nobody liked!
Make Perform as useful a skill to have for a non-bard as for a bard? That would be truly awesome, but I can't even begin to conceive of a mechanic!
Just because you don't get a response doesn't mean nobody liked your idea. I didn't see your post, but now that I've read it, I'll say that while I like what you're trying to accomplish (making the skill useful for non-bards), Orator, Dancer, Comedian, etc really feel like skills rather than feats. Still, you're a step ahead of the rest of us who can't even conceive of a mechanic for Perform.
So how to make Perform useful... that's tricky. I think toyrobots has some good ideas. Unfortunately, they are essentially synergy bonuses that boost other skills, something Pathfinder is moving away from (and probably the reason toyrobots resorted to feats).
Making a little money on the side is only useful if you're appallingly unsuccessful as an adventurer. Maybe some GMs like to contrive situations of poverty, but I don't see this as a very useful skill, just a little insurance for very exceptional situations.
The only real point of Perform (other than flavor) that I see is the ability to influence others. So is Perform just another type of Diplomacy? Who needs two kinds of Diplomacy? Well, Perform might provide a second chance to influence a creature, since Diplomacy cannot be retried within 24 hours. Otherwise it's just a synergy bonus, and either way it's redundant.
So what makes Perform different than Diplomacy? Actually, the answer is obvious and suggests that Perform could be more powerful than Diplomacy. It targets an audience. Just as Mass Charm is a more powerful spell than Charm, Perform seems like it ought to be awesome. So why isn't it?
We're back to the need for a mechanic. What if Perform let you influence the attitude of everyone in an audience? Unlike Diplomacy, you could use the skill to adjust attitudes in either direction toward anyone you choose (not necessarily yourself). Also, Diplomacy is ineffective against creatures with Intelligence 3 or less, while any musical performance could influence any creature with Intelligence of at least 1. Actually, non-musical performance makes sense too. Think of Peter Jackson's King Kong, where Ann (Naomi Watts) performs a bit of buffoonery to gain Kong's friendship and avoid being smashed or eaten. That would have been impossible with Diplomacy.
Spelling out these differences may be enough to make Perform a droolworthy skill, but I'm not sure. Why not give Perform some magical or spell-like effects? This was a terrific idea that toyrobots had for the Heal skill (link here), to make the skill mechanic mirror the familiar parts of healing magic. What if we did the same with Perform, to mirror the familiar parts of enchantment magic? This way anyone can add a little "magic" to their character.
Since the game has so far failed to provide a way for Perform to be a useful skill, a more radical game-changing mechanic may be in order. As an example, a video game called Shadow Hearts: Covenant had a really interesting idea of Sanity Points, to add a little variation to the standard HP/MP convention. The idea is that the evils your characters face are so insidious, they wear down your sanity. At zero SP, you begin attacking your own allies randomly. Perform would be the perfect skill to heal SP. In D&D terms, maybe Perform could be given the ability to heal mind-affecting status effects. This use of the skill could have the same limitation as the Heal skill proposed by toyrobots: it takes too much time to be used in combat.
EDIT: Here's another idea: What if Perform gave you the ability to influence wards, arcane locks, and similar magical effects (high DC) as if they were sentient?
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i agree something must be done to help those skill leave from their small niche...
a similar idea of affecting people moods like in diplomacy but at a group level and maybe nor as efficient or needing a lot more of time (needing more than one success) could be interesting
using perform oratory or buffonery to tell the people their kingis evil and they should rise in arms while quite different could be as effective