Dennis the Ogre made this excellent point in another thread:
Fighter-only feats should be presented as class features in the Fighter description, much as rogue talents are.
It will save a lot of confusion and jealousy, and make the fighter section more interesting and informative to read.
I agree, if only because it un-clutters the Feat Chapter with Feats that are useless for everyone else. It also makes the potential abilities of the Fighter more obvious when skimming the Classes, which is a good thing.
...Likewise, Magic Feats shouldn't be mixed in with all the other Feats where the descriptions are listed in Alphabetical order, they should be broken off into their own sub-section, since they don't really apply to half of the Classes, and it would be more helpful to those who CAN use them to be able to flip thru ONLY the Magic Feats when they want to.
The space taken is exactly the same, whether it's on page 22 or page 58.
I beleive the location of Bloodlines/Schools/Domains may change to a more consistent location, compared to Beta.
I think stuff like this, which basically comes down to readability and usability, is a major factor in designing a product like this. Veteran D&D players will figure it out anyways, because the basic structure is familiar, however it's organized. I'd rather the book be organized so NEWBIE players can easily "grok" it without being already familiar with D&D. Treating the Fighter-only Feats like Rogue Talents, saying "at levels where you gain Fighter Bonus Feat, you can take any of these Fighter Feats that you qualify for, OR any regular Combat Feat" would make sense and be clear & usable.
I didn't see Jason's post on that topic, but I actually have hope for this. :-)
Eh I have no issue with em being in the feats chapter, they belong there. If we move them we will need to move the other class only feats,metamagics,and extra whatever feats and so on. May be the chapter should be broken into general use feats and sections with feats for classes
Bagpuss, I'm hoping that the Combat Chapter will see some major fixes in and of itself which will help the non-Fighter melee types counter Casters and otherwise be effective at high levels. Without needing Feats. :-)
I actually like them as feats, its also something of a disparety, as i hear no calls for the removal of feats like extra or selective channeling. Which while both paladins and clerics can theoreticially take advantage of, would require no more work to intigrate as class features than fighter only feats.
That said, i would like to see some of the fighter only feats opened up to atleast one other combat class.
Reprinting Divine Feats in 2 Classes takes twice the space.
Those are easily dealt with by organizing the Feats into "Combat", "General", "Magic". No problem.
Fighter-only Feats are by definition, only used by one class.
Why not include Rogue Talents as Rogue-only Feats in the Feat Chapter, by that logic?
Nobody is advocating "removing" anything, it's just about placement and presentation.
If I hand the Pathfinder book to a newbie player and say "glance at the Classes and pick one you like", I'd like enough info to be IN the Class itself to help make a choice. Casters need to look at the Magic Chapter anyways, because all the Spells obviously won't fit inside each Class. (and would take up ~3x the space given the multiple Caster classes)
The Fighter Class will still be shorter than other classes with these included in it's section. Saying "they're called Feats, so they need to be in the Feat Chapter" is silly, since they don't NEED to be called Feats (this is Beta, after all). Rogue Talents are obviously Feat-equivalent, since you can gain certain Combat Feats in lieu of the other Talents, yet they aren't in the Feat Chapter. I don't see how it benefits any other PC Class's players for Fighter "Feats" to be mixed up in the Feat Chapter, and I don't see how it benefits Fighter players themselves.
Well do we put spells with the wizard? They are feats put a fighter header on em and place em in the feats chapter.
Reprinting Divine Feats in 2 Classes takes twice the space.
Those are easily dealt with by organizing the Feats into "Combat", "General", "Magic". No problem.
Fighter-only Feats are by definition, only used by one class.
Why not include Rogue Talents as Rogue-only Feats in the Feat Chapter, by that logic?Nobody is advocating "removing" anything, it's just about placement and presentation.
If I hand the Pathfinder book to a newbie player and say "glance at the Classes and pick one you like", I'd like enough info to be IN the Class itself to help make a choice. Casters need to look at the Magic Chapter anyways, because all the Spells obviously won't fit inside each Class. (and would take up ~3x the space given the multiple Caster classes)The Fighter Class will still be shorter than other classes with these included in it's section. Saying "they're called Feats, so they need to be in the Feat Chapter" is silly, since they don't NEED to be called Feats (this is Beta, after all). Rogue Talents are obviously Feat-equivalent, since you can gain certain Combat Feats in lieu of the other Talents, yet they aren't in the Feat Chapter. I don't see how it benefits any other PC Class's players for Fighter "Feats" to be mixed up in the Feat Chapter, and I don't see how it benefits Fighter players themselves.
Because they have pre-requisites, are taken as part of a chain and behave in every single way like a feat. There are people who argue that class features from half the prestige classes should be feats based on less.
Its also a fundimental of the fighter that he gets lots of feats, and can do what he likes with them, rather than regular class features. What having them as feats allows for is a considerably more versitile build, which is a good thing.
Rogue Talents
Combat Feat Talent
Weapon Finesse Talent
Minor Magic->Major Magic (chain/pre-req)
feat equivalency, chains, flexibility, etc...
how does it help PLAYERS to have them in the Feat section?
i certainly see alot of readability and usability benefits to formatting them like Rogue Talents.
if you want to advocate the Rogue Talents also going into the Feat Chapter, you'd at least be consistent.