[Skills] Analysis of impact on classes & introducing Athletics

[Fimir]

I studied the new skill system a bit.
First of all, I'm a big fan of how the new system works, and the combination of skills results in them being more used, which is good in my opinian.

But for some classes the advantage is much higher than for others, and at the same time, some skill combinations have unexpected results for some classes.

I will give an overview of all classes for comparison with a few numbers:
1. How many class skills does the class have in d&d3.5? I excluded Craft, Profession, Knowledges and Perform because they are of lesser importance or have multiple uses.
2. How many class skills does the class have in Pathfinder? I also excluded Craft, Profession, Knowledges and Perform for the same reason.
3. How many ‘class combination’ gains are there. This number represents the number of class skills from D&D 3.5 you don’t have to put skills points into in PF because they were rolled up into a combination skill.
4. Finally a list of the D&D 3.5 skills which have become class skills in PF either by adding them or because they are part of a combination skill in PF which is a class skill. I also excluded Craft, Profession, Knowledges and Perform.

Barbarian 8 / 8 / 0 / Spot, Search, Tumble, Balance
Bard 21 / 14 / 7 / Forgery, Search
Cleric 4 / 6 / 1 / Gather info, Appraise, Speak lang, Forgery, Decipher, Sense Motive
Druid 10 / 9 / 2 / Fly, Search
Fighter 6 / 6 / 0 /
Paladin 6 / 6 / 0 / Gather info
Ranger 14 / 10 / 3 / Intimidate, (- Jump)
Rogue 25 / 16 / 8 / Speak lang
Monk 13 / 9 / 4 / Gather info, Search
Sorcerer 3 / 6 / 1 / Appraise, Fly, Intimidate, Use magic device
Wizard 3 / 4 / 1 / Appraise, Fly, Speak language, Forgery

Comparing column 1 and 2 we see the difference in number of class skills between D&D 3.5 and Pathfinder. A lot of classes have less class skills in which to invest skill points, with serious gains for Rogue, Bard, Ranger and Monk. Also note that the melee classes fighter and paladin have no advantage at all. They already have the least amount of skill points and for them there is no synergy.

Further, the rolling up of Jump into Acrobatics has some strange results: The barbarian can now all of a sudden Tumble through enemy ranks like the best of them. Not exactly what you’d expect Conan to do. But he must be able to make a large jump because he is so strong, that’s for sure. On the other hand the Ranger loses Jump, which is really weird considering that these guys move in wild lands where there is many a creek or crevasse to be jumped.

But I have a proposal to solve the above 3 issues all in one go: A new skill

Athletics (Str) = Swim + Climb + Jump. Class skill for Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Mond, Ranger, Rogue.

This would remove Jump from Acrobatics off course. I would add Escape Artist instead. If you are lithe and agile enough to tumble, getting out of bonds or someone else’s grip should be easy as well. And it fits the same classes.

Acrobatics (Dex) = Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble. Class skill for Bard, Monk, Rogue.

The last change I would propose is to roll up Ride with Handle Animal. If the most useful skills Listen, Spot and Search get combined, then why not combine Ride and Handle Animal. All classes which have one of those as class skill also have the other, with the exception of the Monk, and I have no idea why the Monk should have Ride. The only difficulty is finding the correct ability for the combination. I would propose this to remain Charisma, which would be a small bonus for the Paladin, the class most associated with mounted combat.

Handle Animal (Cha) = Handle Animal + Ride. Class skill for Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger.

The above combinations would be very beneficial to the Fighter and Paladin. This would also be a solution for quite a few people who have been voicing that those classes should have more skill points.

To conclude, I would also propose to make Knowledge (Nobility) a class skill for the Fighter. The Fighter is a formally trained warrior, as opposed to the Warrior NPC class. As part of that training, he would need to know about who’s in charge of a nation, and what the colors of the different hireling companies and regular armies are. I find it strange that the cleric would know this and the Fighter not.

Jason, I hope my effort to compile this is of use to you.

And to the community on this board: Please comment and discuss.

[DivineAspect]

This is a really Sharp Alternate Consolidation of Skills, well done.

[Arakhor]

It's also the 4th Edition skill consolidation. Acrobatics does not need Escape Artist and I still think that Jump belongs better under Acrobatics than it does under Athletics.

If Perception is always a must-have by having three skills at once, what will that do for Acrobatics and Athletics?

[Robert Brambley]

Arakhor wrote:

It's also the 4th Edition skill consolidation. Acrobatics does not need Escape Artist and I still think that Jump belongs better under Acrobatics than it does under Athletics.

If Perception is always a must-have by having three skills at once, what will that do for Acrobatics and Athletics?

I disagree. Jump is more athletics than acrobatics - and it makes more backwards compatible sense to do so - for the Ranger and fighter losing Jump, and barbarian gaining tumble.

Perception I dont see the pragmatism for Search rolled with spot/listen.

As for Ride/Handle Animal - this make some sense. Would it be DEX or CHA? Handle animal typically has a lot more applications than just riding.....thus it needs a tender charismatic touch. On the other hand, while using Handle Animal to do some of those cool ride maneuvers (using as cover, free-action mounting/dismounting) seem to need a good level of agility.

Robert

[Mosaic]

Great analysis.

Fimir wrote:

Athletics (Str) = Swim + Climb + Jump. Class skill for Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Mond, Ranger, Rogue.

This would remove Jump from Acrobatics off course. I would add Escape Artist instead. If you are lithe and agile enough to tumble, getting out of bonds or someone else’s grip should be easy as well. And it fits the same classes.

Climb + Jump, yes. I personally still think Swim (as a form of locomotion) merits its own skill. But I totally agree with your basic argument.

Fimir wrote:

Acrobatics (Dex) = Balance + Escape Artist + Tumble. Class skill for Bard, Monk, Rogue.

Balance + Tumble - Jump, absolutely. + Escape Artist, I can see that. It's a pretty low utility skill all by itself. I don't NEED it to be included, but it makes sense.

Fimir wrote:

Handle Animal (Cha) = Handle Animal + Ride. Class skill for Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger.

The last change I would propose is to roll up Ride with Handle Animal. If the most useful skills Listen, Spot and Search get combined, then why not combine Ride and Handle Animal. All classes which have one of those as class skill also have the other, with the exception of the Monk, and I have no idea why the Monk should have Ride. The only difficulty is finding the correct ability for the combination. I would propose this to remain Charisma, which would be a small bonus for the Paladin, the class most associated with mounted combat.

I rarely take either of these skill, but this makes sense. And, yes, keep it Charisma. This skill would be about controlling the animal. If you want to jump onto the horse or flip into the air to dismount, that's not Ride anyway, it's Acrobatics. Again, I don't NEED this one to happen but it does seem like the best way to take a couple of low utility skills turn them into a thematically consistent, more generally useful skill.

Other than these, I just want to throw in one more call for Perception NOT to include Search. Pull Search out and make it its own skill again. Perception is just too useful. Everyone is going to put points into it and you'll get a Perception arms race. Plus there ought to be a way to look for things based on your Intelligence and not just the acuity of your senses.

Again, great analysis.

[Fimir]

I agree about taking search out of perception too.
There is both a logical and a game balance reason, and for me that seals the deal.

[elghinn velkyn MASTER]

Swim ,it's water environment. Athletism it's on solid ground .

[Nikosandros]

I'm very much in favor of the skill consolidation proposed by the OP. It might be more realistic to keep, for example, jump and swim as separate skill, but this penalizes classes that take those skills... especially since some very useful skills have been instead merged (like stealth and perception).

[Remco Sommeling]

I like the atlethics skill combining climb and jump, swim I am not entirely sure off but I think it is preferable to having it as a separate skill.

acrobatics tumble and balance should be enough no need to add escape artist to that. taking away jump from this skill and take it to atletics seems a good idea to me.

[Remco Sommeling]

I agree on making search it's own skill too, the ways in which search is applied does not make much sense to be wisdom related, though it certainly has some crossover with perception.

perception makes perfect sense to avoid surprise, but the methodical nature of search and knowing what to look for isn't a wisdom skill.