OK, so we've got Perception, which is the old Listen + Spot + Search, and also has the new abilities of scent, touch, and taste, and you can even detect disease with it.
We've got Acrobatics, which includes the old Tumble, Balance, and Jump skills, and also lets you slow fall a bit, and trumps the Mobility feat when it comes to moving through threatened areas.
And we have... Perform (singing). With no in-game effects at all unless you're a bard, and even then you can't even play an instrument.
Skill consolidation is a big hit with our group so far, but in the Beta it's extremely haphazard, and leaves vast disparities in the usefulness of the various combined and still-uncombined skills. Every single character now maxes out Perception. All melee characters max out Acrobatics. All casters take Spellcraft. All high-Cha characters max out Diplomacy.
Unfortunately, all of the other skills have now become "leftovers," taken only once those main four have been accounted for.
PLEASE, can we either combine some more (which would put many people up in arms, considering the outcry against a proposed Climb + Swim = Athletics merger), or, barring that, can we "beef up" the usefulness of some of the "leftovers," maybe by merging some feats into them?
For example, we could do some or all of the following (or none, but at least follow this sort of logic):
Let's face it - all casters will take Spellcraft, even if it's only one or two ranks, and most will max it out. If we're considering making the Knowledge skills pull the duties of Spellcraft, you zap Spellcraft and not the Knowledge skills.
If you wanted more useful Perform skills, you could boil them down to Vocal (oratory, poetry, song), Physical (dance, acting) and Instrumental. Likewise, you could have an Animal Lore skill (or simply Handle Animal), which includes Handle Animal & Ride, but I don't think it would stack with a druid or ranger's Animal Empathy.
I'm still all for an Athletics skill (mostly because I'm a Morrowind nut), but maybe Profession skills could be more integrated, such as Knowledge: Dungeoneering & Profession: Miner or Appraise & Profession: Merchant.
I had a controversial and strange idea today:
Perform types could be made into feats. Give the bard a bunch of perform feats for free, and other people can take them. Then make them worth it.
"Orator", for example, could boost Linguistics and Diplomacy. "Dancer" could boost Acrobatics and Fly. "Comedian" could boost bluff and intimidate(?), "Actor" could boost Bluff and Disguise.
The Instruments would have to have some other benefit, such as providing a bonus to any Cha-based skill while you are playing the instrument.
In all cases, having the feat meets the requisites for bardic performance of a given level (bardic performance itself would need some reworking). However, the Bard himself would receive 3 or 4 more skills (freed up from performs), and the unique properties of each performance ability would impart a bit of character to the performer.
Of course, you can still use the feat to make a Charisma check to make some money on the side. What do you think, friends?
Well, I like the initial idea, but how would you implement the whole bardic performance thing then?
Well, I like the initial idea, but how would you implement the whole bardic performance thing then?
Make Bardic Performance a charisma check and eliminate the required ranks in favor of making them automatic class abilities at a given level. That whole mechanic was always onerous, because all Bards would max out the needed perform skills, so the requirement served very little purpose.
Under this system, the bard class would be much easier on the eyes. You get a special pool of feats like the Ranger and Rogue. Those feats help flesh out your skills and add distinction to your bard; an orator has different skills than a comedian. You can use any perform feat you have as the method of Bardic Performance, and the feat description can name the the types of performance that can be used (already specified).
I think it has merit, if someone wants to run with it. It certainly turns a mandatory skill of the bard into an interesting character choice, and lets other characters pick up an instrument or performance talent with a greater benefit than a few cp from busking now and then.
I like that idea too, it has to be said, but then I've only started actually possibly liking d20 bards in Pathfinder, so I'm probably not the best person to ask.
Rather than nitpick over bards, or specific skills, I'd hoped to gauge whether anyone else in the entire gaming community feels that maybe skills should be a bit more "equal," so to speak, and less <super-skill everyone MUST have!> vs. <minor, overly-specific, sub-sub-sub-skill with no game use> -- given that they all have the same cost (1 point per rank).
Rather than nitpick over bards, or specific skills, I'd hoped to gauge whether anyone else in the entire gaming community feels that maybe skills should be a bit more "equal," so to speak, and less <super-skill everyone MUST have!> vs. <minor, overly-specific, sub-sub-sub-skill with no game use> -- given that they all have the same cost (1 point per rank).
Okay Kirth, you can have your thread back.
I agree with you in principle, although I think Perform is the biggest offender.
I've created a thread for discussion of Perform Feats.
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I totally agree. Right now there are a few "super skills" - Perception, Acrobatics, Linguistics - that offer a lot, some good ol' medium utility skills, and some duds - Escape Artist, Disguise, Intimidate, Ride, Swim. I don't mean duds in that they aren't occasionally useful, because sure they can be, but come on, how often? Is a player who puts a bunch of ranks in any of these skills really going to get her money's worth?
I agree with suggestions I've read elsewhere.
1) Tone down the super skills - pull Search back out of Perception, pull Jump out of Acrobatics, pull forgery out of Linguistics.
2) Beef up the weak skills, either by giving them better uses or combining them with other weak/medium utility skills - combine Ride with Handle Animals, put Climb and Jump together, add Gather Info to Intimidate (and Bluff) as well as Diplomacy [one can gather information by being nice, with scare tactics, or by being dishonest], add some disguise or conceal objects to Disguise, etc.
Overall, even out the lopsidedness of the skills.
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Deception = Disguise + verbal mimicry + concealing objects (concealing them by hiding or camouflaging them vs. concealing them with a quick hand movement, aka, Sleight of Hand).
Bluff is a good, balanced skill as is so stays separate as verbal BS while Deception picks up faking who people and things.
"Forgery" could become a join effort - a good Craft check to build the basic object, then a Deception check to make it look like something it really isn't.
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Yes, the skills are imbalanced, especially for a point buy system. They need to be reconsidered and streamlined. For example, if we were to roll Perform into one skill and leave it vague, like Profession (Perform: Royal Thespian!, Perform: Naughty Gypsy!, Perform: Husky Busker! Perform: Bjork!) would there be a rash of abuse?
There seems to be a lot of tradition and not much theory in skill design.
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For example, if we were to roll Perform into one skill and leave it vague ... would there be a rash of abuse?
Make it like Linguistics - each rank buys you a new kind of performance but your rank total reflects how good you are at any of them.* Jason tried to create two sets of abilities, one for instrument using bards and one for dancing/acting bards, but that would still fit - bards would still have to choose types of performance (they would just get them faster) and you couldn't use both at the same time so you'd still have to chose one ability or the other. Works for me. May to keep bards from having all 7 (8?) Perform categories by 8th level, you would get one of the sub-categories per rank. Adventures would still refer to the larger category for challenges, so there might be two or three different Performs that might work for each challenge.
*This isn't quite how Linguistics works, but it could be! Maybe you are automatically fluent in your starting languages plus any you gain by Int bumps, but ones you learn via Linguistics are only as good as you Linguistics skill check. Work it like Appraise where communicating basic info is a DC10, harder DC15, explaining physics, er, astrology DC20. Results are secret so the GM might have to give false info. It would allow everyone a chance to speak multiple languages without creating instant polyglots.
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Let's face it - all casters will take Spellcraft, even if it's only one or two ranks, and most will max it out. If we're considering making the Knowledge skills pull the duties of Spellcraft, you zap Spellcraft and not the Knowledge skills.
I have never understood the need for having Knowledge(arcana), Knowledge(religion) and Spellcraft; it just seems like duplication.
The instances, in published adventures, calling for one or the other seem totally arbitary, and more driven by metagame concerns (this is a trained roll we expect you to make, vs this is an untrained roll we expect you to fail), which should really, be handled by setting the appropriate DC.
If the theoretical, abstract elements of Spellcraft (identifying spells being cast, new spell research, etc) were rolled into the appropriate Knowledge skill, then this leaves a skill free to handle the practical, gritty elements (casting defensively, holding the spell while injured, etc).
This practical skill could either be Spellcraft, as now (with the associated ability being either Con or the relevant casting ability for the spell), or it could revert back to Concentration. All mentions of 'Spellcraft' rolls would be defined as specific usages of those skills, in the same way 'Tumbling' is a specific use of Acrobatics.
This also leaves the door open for psionics to be added at a later date, as simply one skill, Knowledge (psionics), without the need for Psi-craft, or Psy-Concentration skills, since these would already be covered by the existing mechanics.
PLEASE, can we either combine some more (which would put many people up in arms, considering the outcry against a proposed Climb + Swim = Athletics merger), or, barring that, can we "beef up" the usefulness of some of the "leftovers," maybe by merging some feats into them?
I don't like the idea of merging Swim and Climb. Anyway, they seem good enough by themselves.
For example, we could do some or all of the following (or none, but at least follow this sort of logic):Dungeoneering = Knowledge (dungeoneering) + stonecunning racial feature + Profession (mining)
That makes a lot of sense.
Perform (music) = all instruments, singing, composing, etc.
No, please. In this case the flavor that's lost outweighs the benefit of any power balance gained. I'd much rather make the individual Perform skills more powerful, give them magical effects outside of spellcasting if we have to (it is a fantasy setting, after all).
Roll Knowledge (nature) into Survival, and add Knowledge (arcana) to Spellcraft.
I'd go the other way and roll Survival into K(nature), and Spellcraft into K(arcana) and K(religion). I also liked the ideas of rolling K(nobility) into K(history), and K(planes) into K(arcana) and K(religion).
Handle Animal = Handle Animal + Ride + Wild Empathy + Mounted Combat
I'm not sure about merging Handle Animal (Cha) and Ride (Dex), since they depend on different stats. I don't have experience riding horses, so I don't have a good feel for the kind of skill involved. Assuming they really are separate skills, I'd look for some way to make each more important in-game.
For the most part I'm happy with the skill merging in the Beta, except I'd get rid of Forgery rather than roll it into Linguistics, and replace Concentration with a caster level check. I might separate Balance from Acrobatics, since it has a different game function than either Jump or Tumbling, but I'd be interested in hearing game reasons why they belong together.
Actually ToyRobot you really have me intrigued with your idea there.
Give me a day and I'll post some feat ideas based on what you have posted here.