Table of Context.
Page 1: Two weapon fighting feat and combat system rework.
Page 2: End result of fix.
Page 3: Required Feats to be added for this new system.
Page 4: Feats suggested for niche.
Dear Jason Bulmahn,
It has come to my attention that two weapon fighting has and is completely and totally restricted in use for rogues and other classes that gain precision damage and damage dice. This, I think, was the main reason for the massive negatives applied to the fighting style, and the long list of feats. This though made the style useless for the other classes as this provided no real niche of its own to excel at. After doing the math have tweaked and reworked the entire system to bring it to par with two handed weapon fighting, in its frequency of use at least, and to purpose a niche of its own. I have gotten a lot of feed back over the alpha and early beta pathfinder play-testing, and have come to this conclusion.
__________________________________
Page 251
Two-Weapon Fighting
If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a –4 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a –5 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can eliminate these penalties with the Two-Weapon Fighting feat. If you have the two weapon fighting feat you may make as many attacks with your primary hand as your off hand gained from the increase in base attack. If your off-hand weapon is light, you gain a bonus of +1 to each attack, primary hand and off hand. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Table 9–7 summarizes the interaction of all these factors.
If you try to perform an attack that would deal precision damage while using two weapon fighting you need to take a -3 penalty to hit to that attack. You must declare before the attack is made whether or not you are trying to perform an attack that deals precision damage. Normally, you may only deal precision damage with your primary hand.
The key idea here is that the older version of two weapon fighting was gimped because rogues and other classes with precision damage would become way too powerful. So rather than restrict the feat to one class, one should merely give them a minus to hit while performing the balancing factor in question. However there is some people who think that the sneak attack has been restricted more with the current rules.
Turin the Mad wrote:
IF the rogue had the BAB of the fighter, access to the weapon specialization/greater focus et al bunch, and did not depend on setting up sneak attacks for damage output, I would be more inclined to agree.
However, rogues do not generally deal as much damage, both from hitting less often as well as from having far less of an emphasis on raw damage power - and unless I have misinterpreted DR, if the basic weapon damage does not penetrate, the sneak attack damage amounts to precisely zero. Rogues generally have to spend actions to set up their sneak attacks barring Greater Invisibility spells, and even then there are going to be times when foes can easily perceive the rogue even when so concealed. Blindsight, tremorsense, See Invisibility, True Seeing and Uncanny Dodge/Improved Uncanny Dodge are all pretty sovereign defenses against being sneak attacked. A rogue is then reduced to maneuvering to flank assuming the foe is susceptible or move-action-feint/standard-action-sneak attack against such foes. Many players forget to ensure that their rogues can even Feint in Combat I've seen.
Rogues' sneak attack is nasty - but they do not have the BAB progression to get more than six dual-weapon attacks at most (when they hit a BAB of 11/6/1), the last two of which are not going to be reliably connecting at all, with the above feat, against many typical foes.
Table 9–7: Two-Weapon Fighting Penalties
Circumstances Primary Hand Off Hand
Normal effects –4 –5
Off-hand weapon is light –3 –4
Two-Weapon Fighting feat +0 +0
Off-hand weapon is light and +1 +1
The idea of a bonus is that sense they are wielding two weapons makes it harder to defend against due to the multiple angles they can be attacked from. Here are my arguments for making this feat give at the very least a +1 to hit with two one handed weapons, and making the light offhand weapon a +2. This would entail a -4 to hit while performing precision attacks.
* 1. You still have a much smaller amount of minimum damage, not enough to counter act the possible higher damage at this level.
* 2. You still have two stat requirements you must have reasonably high.
Weapon cost is still a problem, but that can be fixed with a new magic item made to help mediate this problem. If this is not taken car of then this needs to be and additional +1 for ever additional attack they due to base attack bonus, at the very LEAST.
* 3. You have to still deal with double the DR, which more than counters the bonus damage feats such as weapon specialization.
* 4. You still have to deal with double the magic weapon cost, which jumps up on you really fast, and restricts your overall power.
End Results
Two Weapon fighting can be used identical to two handed weapon in ever way except for the listed below in damage an bonus to hit.
So in comparison between Two Handed Weapon Fighting, and Two Weapon Fighting:
Two Handed Weapon Fighting
Using maximum 1st level Stats
After 1 feat purchase
Weapon: Great Sword
Feat: Overhand Chop
Damage: 2D6+10
Range: 12- 22
Average: 17
To Hit: +0 differance
Two Weapon Fighting
Using maximum 1st level Stats
After 1 feat purchase
Weapon: 2 Long Swords
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Damage: 2D8+7
Range: 9- 23
Average: 16
To Hit: +0
Weapon: Long Sword + Short Sword
Feat: Two Weapon Fighting
Damage: 1D8+1D6+7
Range: 9 - 21
Average: 15
To Hit: +1
Two weapon fighting could also use a better niche. Two weapon fighting should never out damage two handed weapons in the slightest, but it is clear above that the ability to hit the target is my key idea. I think a selection of feats for a set combat maneuver is a great idea as well. Two weapon fighting also has a little to do with shield use as well, and I thought to give shields the other combat maneuvers that two weapon fighting didn’t really use. This is covered mostly in page 4.
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 13 and Str 13, or 15 Dex
Benefit: Your penalties for two weapon fighting are eliminated. Performing one attack with your primary and with one attack from your offhand weapon is now a single attack action. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 9.
______________________
Note: Class features that normally grant a reduction to the penalties to two weapon fighting, such as select prestige classes, now grant a bonus to hit instead.
Extra Precision Attack (Combat)
You can deal extra precision attacks with two weapon fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 17, Two Weapon Fighting Feat
Benefit: You may now perform one attack that deals precision damage with your offhand attack gained fro two weapon fighting.
Improved Extra Precision Attack (Combat)
You can deal can perform precision attacks with two weapon fighting.
Benefit: You may now perform two additional attacks with precision with your offhand attack gained fro two weapon fighting.
Superior Extra Precision Attack (Combat)
You can deal extra precision attacks with two weapon fighting
Prerequisite: Dex 19, Base Attack +11, Improved Extra Precision Attack
Benefit: You may now perform as many additional precision damage dealing attacks with your primary hand as your off hand.
There were comments in the previous thread that now not only do they need to take an additional feat to use two sneak attacks instead of one, but it now costs an additional feat in the long run. I thought the extra feat was necessary due to the other bonuses that were gained, such as being able to get two sneak attacks off at the end of a charge, and the option to fight with a bonus to hit instead of a minus when the target was immune to their attacks. If with the previous listed reason for upping the power of two weapon fighting for them as well then I have a suggestion. If the additional feat is too much then I would suggest just removing the improved extra precision attack feat and just jump to Superior Extra Precision attack, but with the requirements of improved extra precision attack. This would give them a slight draw back of a lower start to power, but the same cost for more.
Here are some suggestion feats to emphasis on developing two weapons fighting as having a niche of its own.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
You learn to perform multiple attacks with greater efficiency
Prerequisite: Base Attack +6, Two Weapon Feat
Benefit: While wielding two weapons in melee you gain a +2 on all attacks gained from the improvement of base attack bonus to both primary and off hand attacks. This bonus does not apply to their initial two attacks at the highest base attack bonus. This bonus applies to both primary and off hand attacks.
Example: When a fighter gets a base attack bonus of 6 he has a bonus of +3 on his second attack instead of only +1. When they reach +11, the second round of attack will be +8, and third would be +3 to hit, and so on.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting
You learn to perform multiple attacks with greater efficiency
Prerequisite: Base Attack +11, Improved Two Weapon Feat
Benefit: While wielding two weapons in melee you gain an additional +1 on all attacks gained from the improvement of base attack bonus to both primary and off hand attacks. This bonus does not apply to their initial two attacks at the highest base attack bonus.
Example: When a fighter gets a base attack bonus of 6 he has a bonus of +4 on his second attack instead of only +3. When they reach +11, the second round of attack will be +9, and third would be +4 to hit, instead of the second attack being +8 and the third being +3.
Superior Two Weapon Fighting
You learn to perform multiple attacks with greater efficiency
Prerequisite: Base Attack +16, Greater Two Weapon Feat
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus to all attacks while using two weapons to attack.
Two Weapon Trickster
Using two weapons you find better ways to perform specific combat maneuvers.
Prerequisite: Base Attack +5, Two Weapon Fighting, and any improved bonus feat for a combat maneuver that takes an attack action (Improved Disarm, Improved Sunder, Improved Grapple, or Improved Trip).
Benefit: While attempting a combat maneuvers with two melee weapons, you gain a +2 on each attempt you make so long as you have the improved feat coinciding with that the maneuver. This however does not work with a shield. This bonus increases by +1 for every additional attack past the first that you gained from two weapon fighting.
Special: You can not take this feat multiple times to have it apply to a separate combat maneuver. If have more than one improved combat maneuver listed in the requirements, or you later obtain one of those feats, the effects of this feat applies automatically. Both weapons must be considered unarmed, or a weapon that allows you to use it to perform a grapple, to us the grapple combat maneuver to gain a bonus from this feat.
Two Weapon Focus Mastery (Idea from Kirth Gersen)
You knowledge in fighting with one weapon has been expanded to work with a different weapon at the same time.
Prerequisite: Two Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus
Benefit: You chose a select weapon type to as a focused off hand weapon. While using two weapons with the two weapon fighting feat with this select weapon you gain the effects of the weapon focus and weapons specialization feats, as well as their improved versions to that select weapon type. This only works while both weapons are being used in two weapon fighting, and while in melee. Also, so long as the off hand weapon is light and the primary hand weapon is one handed they gain an additional +1 to hit to both primary and off hand attacks, as they are even harder to predict and defend against.
Example: A fighter has weapon specialization in a bastard sword. He takes this feat and chooses a dagger as his secondary weapon. While using this pair of weapons he may apply the weapon focus and the weapon specialization meant only for the bastard sword to the dagger.
Special: This feat does work with shields
Shield Trickster
Using a shield you find better ways to perform specific combat maneuvers by optimizing on the cover and protection a shield grants.
Prerequisite: Base Attack +5, Improved Shield Bash, and ether Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, or Improved Disarm.
Benefit: While attempting a combat maneuvers with a shield, but not a buckler, you gain a +2 on each attempt you make to bull rush, overrun, disarm or grapple check. This works with a shield being used only. This bonus increases by +1 for every attack past the first that you gained from an increasing base attack bonus you have.
This seems very well thought out and balanced.
Honestly, Wow.
Thank you. I have always wanted to play a melee type, such as a fighter or hexblade that can use two weapon fighting in a half way decent fashion in comparison to a two handed weapon user. So I thought I would do my best to make it happen.
I'm kind of iffy on some the extra feats there, but the initial concept is awesome. I love it.
Thank you too. The extra feats were listed separately because they were just ideas I put out there to give two weapon fighting a niche other than dealing damage, keeping it different than a two handed weapon user.
I just noticed an area I neglected to clarify, but I am not sure how I to keep it simple.
This should probably be added to the two weapon fighting feat.
_______________________________
Two-Weapon Fighting (Combat)
You can fight with a weapon in each hand. You can make one extra attack each round with the second weapon.
Prerequisite: Dex 13 and Str 13, or 15 Dex
Benefit: Your penalties for two weapon fighting are eliminated. Performing one attack with your primary and with one attack from your offhand weapon can now be performed as if it were a single attack action, such as at the end of a charge or move action, but is other wise still two attack actions. See Two-Weapon Fighting in Chapter 9.
P.S.
Arg... I thought I fixed these
Extra Precision Attack, should have a dex requirment of 15, not 17.
Improved Extra Precision Attack, should have the requirment of Extra Precision Attack, base attack bonus of +6, and Dex of 17.
Type em out and PDF em up, or make it a google doc, and post a link
Arg... I thought I fixed these
You know, that is a great idea, wish I thought of it before I began this thread.
Very nice work. You put a lot of work into this.
wish I thought of it before I began this thread.It's never too late to have a good idea
Mind sending me some instructions on how to do what your saying. I have never done it before and I am having trouble.
|
Get a Google Account, click on the Docs link at the top, put in your text, save it, then click under sharing, publish as webpage. Get the link for the webpage and post it here using the BBCode tag below.
Take a look at this for what it should look like.
You can also email me at this name at gmail dot com
Thank You, E-mail sent.
Two Weapon Fighting Rework
Table of Context
Page 1: Two weapon fighting feat and combat system rework.
Two Weapon Fighting Rework
Table of ContextPage 1: Two weapon fighting feat and combat system rework.
I am thinking about restarting this thread with the links sense Jason Bulmahn hasn't seemed to pay it any attention yet.
Lack of comment is not lack of notice. Jason is busy and he could be mulling over the ideas before he puts up a statement on them. Just stay classy, present your (very good) argument and ideas, then let it rest. I can't imagine he hasn't seen at least one of your posts on these ideas.
I'd also suggest you clearly state out what your intention is for your modified rules, and what the end result is. Also a Lenny Build to demonstrate Balance might really help sell how much simpler these are.
I thought I stated the intentions in the beginning with the "Dear Jason" comment. However a play character might be a good idea. What level would you suggest, I don't exactly have a lot of time here.
P.S.
If some one could please post up a created character for me that would be great. I got finals coming up and don't have a lot of time. I will try this Saturday if I have a moment.
The problem with your rework here, is that it's so thorough! Which isn't a bad thing, it's just a lot. The biggest concern is how does it exist with the old rules, it looks good to me, honestly. But it's still A LOT to read and then there's so many applications to think about.
I gotta' say, this is probably one of the best thought out, "little" changes that could make a very big difference. I really think you're on to something.
Perhaps I've missed something important, but, why the necessity to add the precision based damage feats? Unless you've got a different PDF than I do, it's unnecessary. Reading the rogue entry, it's not a matter of one per turn, it's a matter of yes/no. Of course, Jason might've said this somewhere and I missed it... which means, we're not all testing the same thing.
I'll wait patently for Jason.
Normally, you may only deal precision damage with your primary hand.
The need for the feats is because other wise, with this write up, they would only do sneak attack damage with their primary hand.
This was done because the entire premise is that two weapon fighting was powered down because they didn't want rogues to be able to do insane amounts of damage. So Instead of gimping everyone else along with it, I though why not just single out the problem and give them about the same minuses, while at the same time making it better and balanced for every who didn't have it.
The feats specific was to not give them everything all at once, but more along the lines of the current two weapon fighting system in progression. I also added one additional feat requirement in my design to help balance out the fact that they are getting the ability to sneak attack after a move action and have two weapon fighting be more useful when the target invaluable to sneak attack damage.
Touche, sir. I think that explanation makes it even better.
To be honest, it's a bit of a complex rework (to take in all at once), you might consider adding a bullet-point type of introduction that goes over the main points of what's changed, then go into the rules, then do the exposition about the rules. You know, like you write a report for history - or whatever kids study these days.
I think that would make the entirety of the system a bit easier to swallow all at once. As I read through it I started to think - "Yeah, but..." and then it was answered later on; which is good, but it made it a bit difficult to get into my head on first glance.
I didn't know quite what you were asking so I just tried to cover all my bases.
I appreciate your work here. You have put a lot of effort.
At first glance, I don't agree with completely eliminating the penalties to hit or giving a bonus to hit because the weapons are light.
Two weapon fighting grants characters an extra attack per round (if they can full attack) at full BAB on top of their other attacks. The penalties are the "trade off" to get this extra attack.
giving up the ability to use a shield isn't a satisfactory penalty.
Letting two weapon fighting negate the penalties 100% says that for the price of one feat you can get an extra attack.
Letting the two weapon fighter get a bonus (even just a +1) because he is using light weapons is the same as giving the character weapon focus with a light weapon in addition to the second attack.
I'm sorry i can't quite get behind this version of two weapon fighting. Characters are getting two much for one feat that has no real pre-requisites or trade offs for getting that extra combat power.
keep working at it though. i do appreciate the ideas and effort.
Bulletin Points added to page 1 web document.
I appreciate your work here. You have put a lot of effort.
At first glance, I don't agree with completely eliminating the penalties to hit or giving a bonus to hit because the weapons are light.
Two weapon fighting grants characters an extra attack per round (if they can full attack) at full BAB on top of their other attacks. The penalties are the "trade off" to get this extra attack.
giving up the ability to use a shield isn't a satisfactory penalty.
Letting two weapon fighting negate the penalties 100% says that for the price of one feat you can get an extra attack.
Letting the two weapon fighter get a bonus (even just a +1) because he is using light weapons is the same as giving the character weapon focus with a light weapon in addition to the second attack.
I'm sorry i can't quite get behind this version of two weapon fighting. Characters are getting two much for one feat that has no real pre-requisites or trade offs for getting that extra combat power.
keep working at it though. i do appreciate the ideas and effort.
If you look at the end result page. It shows you that with two weapon fighting, unless your a rogue performing sneak attack, your normal attacks are always add up to =/< to a single attack of a two handed weapon. Having a light off hand weapon drops the damage even lower. If both weapons are light then you can eliminate the problem with weapon focusing and two using weapons, but this drops the damage output even lower yet. Yeah you get an extra attack, but unless you get no minus to hit, or bonus if your off hand is light, then your are for sure inferior to a two handed weapon.
P.S.
Please note that I have given a -3 to precision damage attacks with two weapon fighting.
What I think I am asking here is that I have given mechanical reason why two weapon fighting like this is to par with two handed weapon fighting, can you give me a mechanical reason why it is going to surpass two handed weapon fighting.
Really good work. I hope this will be implemented.
Really good work. I hope this will be implemented.
Thank You! I just hope this gets noticed.
Please bump this as much as possible so Jason and Jacob see my posts for once. *Wink* *Wink*
Your rework of 2-weapon fighting is good and bad at the same time, imho.
Nice because it makes 2-weapon fighting a little bit more viable for precision-based caracters, but I think it doesn't adress the fundamental problem:
with your feats 2-weapon fighting only becomes viable (and actually it goes from useless to overpowered must-have straight away) once you obtained all these feats and it's just not right to be forced to burn so many feats for it
Also it doesn't allow you to be viable as a 2-weapon specialist if you decide to not take full-attack actions. So mobile builds are still forced to go the 2-handed route (scout from WoTC's complete adventurer is only one example).
I still stand with my idea I posted in the alpha boards (I now realize I posted way too late for it to be noticed & discussed :.( )
To reiterate (and improve slightly) what I wrote, so you don't have to go looking for it:
---------------------
Treat 2-weapon fighting almost like double weapons... which means the two-weapon fighting feat becomes:
- an exotic weapon proficiency "dual-wield weapon X and weapon Y" where you have to choose X and Y. If you are not proficient with one of the weapons you still don't know how to use that weapon, so the untrained penalty still applies to that weapon.
- you don't gain additional attacks from the feat
- you still get -x to all attacks (-2 with 2 light weapons, -5 with one light and one medium weapon)
- instead you gain the base damage from both weapons + the magical bonus from one of the weapons at every attack (your choice before every d20 you roll to attack)
- you gain 1.5 str bonus to damage and other class damage bonuses as with twohanded weapons (this includes precision damage and similar bonuses)
Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting is now useless thus disappears.
Two-Weapon Rend also disappears since there is no justification for it any more.
Double weapons aren't treated like 1dX/1dY any more, they all become 1dX+1dY now and considered stricly identical to dual-wielding.
Two-weapon Defense already applies to double weapons and can apply the same way to dual wield, you get a shield bonus and that's it.
---------------------
What do you all think, would this help bring the two-handed or two-weapon choice down to a "cosmetic" decision?
Your rework of 2-weapon fighting is good and bad at the same time, imho.
Nice because it makes 2-weapon fighting a little bit more viable for precision-based caracters, but I think it doesn't adress the fundamental problem:
with your feats 2-weapon fighting only becomes viable (and actually it goes from useless to overpowered must-have straight away) once you obtained all these feats and it's just not right to be forced to burn so many feats for it
Also it doesn't allow you to be viable as a 2-weapon specialist if you decide to not take full-attack actions. So mobile builds are still forced to go the 2-handed route (scout from WoTC's complete adventurer is only one example).
I still stand with my idea I posted in the alpha boards (I now realize I posted way too late for it to be noticed & discussed :.( )
To reiterate (and improve slightly) what I wrote, so you don't have to go looking for it:
---------------------
Treat 2-weapon fighting almost like double weapons... which means the two-weapon fighting feat becomes:
- an exotic weapon proficiency "dual-wield weapon X and weapon Y" where you have to choose X and Y. If you are not proficient with one of the weapons you still don't know how to use that weapon, so the untrained penalty still applies to that weapon.
- you don't gain additional attacks from the feat
- you still get -x to all attacks (-2 with 2 light weapons, -5 with one light and one medium weapon)
- instead you gain the base damage from both weapons + the magical bonus from one of the weapons at every attack (your choice before every d20 you roll to attack)
- you gain 1.5 str bonus to damage and other class damage bonuses as with twohanded weapons (this includes precision damage and similar bonuses)Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting is now useless thus disappears.
Two-Weapon Rend also disappears since there is no justification for it any more.Double weapons aren't treated like 1dX/1dY any more, they all become 1dX+1dY now and considered stricly identical to...
I have never seen any more than 6 people in this board and on the WotC board complain that TWF was not viable for a rogue or a other class such as the scout.
I have however heard of a number of complaints that TWF is only good for those classes stated above.
I have also even heard complaints that two weapon fighting if improved any more for rogues would be too good for them.
I tend to agree with them.
Also note that damage isn't everything. I don't think two weapon fighting try and take that niche away from two handed weapons. That would defeat the point of creating a different fighting style.
The rogues in this version get better use out of this feat so I had to bring them down a little. Your version, at first glance, would make two weapon fighting vastly more powerful than what is worth in one feat, and completely over power two handed weapon fighting.
If you could write up a comparison between a two handed weapon style and a two weapon fighting style capabilities like it would be nice.
P.S. Also all of my suggestions are just that, suggestions, and are up to Jason as to what to do. The minus of having to deal with DR twice is a balancing factor and mechanical fluff that I think it needs to remain.
I will now take the time to address your comments in more detail.
Your rework of 2-weapon fighting is good and bad at the same time, imho.
Nice because it makes 2-weapon fighting a little bit more viable for precision-based caracters, but I think it doesn't adress the fundamental problem:
with your feats 2-weapon fighting only becomes viable (and actually it goes from useless to overpowered must-have straight away) once you obtained all these feats and it's just not right to be forced to burn so many feats for it
You say two things, one it makes it over powered/must have but you fail to stat how. Two you say its a burden but you also fail to state how? They are getting more and it was alright for rogues to began with, and they don't have to take the 4th extra feat as they already have gotten enough power as it is. Why do rogues deserve even more power?
Also it doesn't allow you to be viable as a 2-weapon specialist if you decide to not take full-attack actions. So mobile builds are still forced to go the 2-handed route (scout from WoTC's complete adventurer is only one example).
What crack are you smoking? I am allowing them to make their first two attacks as if it one. This at the least makes it to par early on with two handed weapons.
I still stand with my idea I posted in the alpha boards (I now realize I posted way too late for it to be noticed & discussed :.( )
To reiterate (and improve slightly) what I wrote, so you don't have to go looking for it:
---------------------
Treat 2-weapon fighting almost like double weapons... which means the two-weapon fighting feat becomes:
- an exotic weapon proficiency "dual-wield weapon X and weapon Y" where you have to choose X and Y. If you are not proficient with one of the weapons you still don't know how to use that weapon, so the untrained penalty still applies to that weapon.
- you don't gain additional attacks from the feat
- you still get -x to all attacks (-2 with 2 light weapons, -5 with one light and one medium weapon)
- instead you gain the base damage from both weapons + the magical bonus from one of the weapons at every attack (your choice before every d20 you roll to attack)
- you gain 1.5 str bonus to damage and other class damage bonuses as with twohanded weapons (this includes precision damage and similar bonuses)Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting is now useless thus disappears.
Two-Weapon Rend also disappears since there is no justification for it any more.Double weapons aren't treated like 1dX/1dY any more, they all become 1dX+1dY now and considered stricly identical to...
The rest I stick with my original statement. Maybe I am missing things, but your saying that there are no minuses to hit or do have minuses to hit. But I am sure that what you mean is that DR is not applied twice, that doesn't sit and gets rid of a minus that they should have, it only makes sense.
P.S. Your lack of examples as to why your statements about my purposed fix would unbalance things makes it look more like you just don't like my fix and want yours.
Your rework of 2-weapon fighting is good and bad at the same time, imho.
Nice because it makes 2-weapon fighting a little bit more viable for precision-based caracters, but I think it doesn't adress the fundamental problem:
with your feats 2-weapon fighting only becomes viable (and actually it goes from useless to overpowered must-have straight away) once you obtained all these feats and it's just not right to be forced to burn so many feats for it
Also it doesn't allow you to be viable as a 2-weapon specialist if you decide to not take full-attack actions. So mobile builds are still forced to go the 2-handed route (scout from WoTC's complete adventurer is only one example).
I still stand with my idea I posted in the alpha boards (I now realize I posted way too late for it to be noticed & discussed :.( )
To reiterate (and improve slightly) what I wrote, so you don't have to go looking for it:
---------------------
Treat 2-weapon fighting almost like double weapons... which means the two-weapon fighting feat becomes:
- an exotic weapon proficiency "dual-wield weapon X and weapon Y" where you have to choose X and Y. If you are not proficient with one of the weapons you still don't know how to use that weapon, so the untrained penalty still applies to that weapon.
- you don't gain additional attacks from the feat
- you still get -x to all attacks (-2 with 2 light weapons, -5 with one light and one medium weapon)
- instead you gain the base damage from both weapons + the magical bonus from one of the weapons at every attack (your choice before every d20 you roll to attack)
- you gain 1.5 str bonus to damage and other class damage bonuses as with twohanded weapons (this includes precision damage and similar bonuses)Improved and Greater two-weapon fighting is now useless thus disappears.
Two-Weapon Rend also disappears since there is no justification for it any more.Double weapons aren't treated like 1dX/1dY any more, they all become 1dX+1dY now and considered stricly identical to...
I see a lot of comments you have made, but I don't understand the backing of them. If there is a flaw in my TWF then please tell me what it is. If you notice I make valid points given to me in my OP and web docs. So please explain your position better so I can see if I have done something wrong.
Well this is the last day. I hoped to get some response from Jason here. Maybe I will re-post this in combat, sense a large amount of the info is in actually written in the combat section. I will have sample characters by then.
Wow! The remake is absolutely wonderful! I also have been thinking that the regular 2-Weapon Fighting was weak and I tried to improve it, but I never came up with a system as complete as yours! I believe that now 2handed fighting and 2weapon fighting styles are now at par, each with their own flavour.
I will even go further and say that if Paizo does not incorporate this new system, I definitely will!
I really love this. I've been looking at TWF again and again, and what i got out from it as it was in 3.5 was spending a feat so you can TWF but reducing your damage output compared to fighting with a two-handed weapon.
longsword + shortsword equal greatsword damage +1 on average but your attack roll with both weapons is -2, so youre better off with one less feat but a two-handed weapon than with a feat spent on TWF and two weapons.
This change you present actually makes TWF worth a feat and I really hope Jason considers this. It's really lovely. (I've also been longing for not-sneak-attacking melee characters who can wield two weapons effectively, a fighter with two bastard swords is cool, but without this he was badly underpowerd)
I will even go further and say that if Paizo does not incorporate this new system, I definitely will!
I am honored. Thank you.
I just wish I got some attention from Paizo itself.
I really love this. I've been looking at TWF again and again, and what i got out from it as it was in 3.5 was spending a feat so you can TWF but reducing your damage output compared to fighting with a two-handed weapon.
longsword + shortsword equal greatsword damage +1 on average but your attack roll with both weapons is -2, so youre better off with one less feat but a two-handed weapon than with a feat spent on TWF and two weapons.
This change you present actually makes TWF worth a feat and I really hope Jason considers this. It's really lovely. (I've also been longing for not-sneak-attacking melee characters who can wield two weapons effectively, a fighter with two bastard swords is cool, but without this he was badly underpowerd)
Yeah a lot of people seem to be liking this. Again, I only hope there was a way we could get some feedback from Jason and others at Paizo that they have at least seen this.
What would you say though? +1 for two one handed weapons or keep it at +0 to hit? This would mean +2 for a light off hand weapon.
OH and be sure not to miss the links to the web documents.
Well, hopefully on the 15th, I can get some actual attention. Wish me luck.