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After reviewing the opinions discussed in the Sorcerer/Wizard playtest, and seeing Jason's suggestion of making casting defensively a Will save, I thought I'd add a simple solution.
Instead of changing the system, perhaps Spellcraft should be keyed to which ever ability the class uses for casting. So, wizards use Int, Sorcerers/Bards/Paladins use Cha, and Rangers/Druids/Clerics use Wis. This keeps the system intact without creating a new mechanic, and boosts each class equally.
Possible downsides exist, however. For example, if a character gains Spellcraft from two different classes (like a mystic theurges), which of the two abilities should apply?
In 3.5, Concentration was a must have for any spellcaster as with the changes in Pathfinder, and with the current DC, anyone who kept it maxed could rarely fail. Would changing the DC to a Will save make things better? Or, would this change make spellcasting more difficult?
Thoughts?
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Actually i like this idea to redefine spellcraft or use "caster level + main attribute" just as when trying to pass spell resistance
ok spellcraft related to magic is a mind process, meaning inteligence... but every spellcaster shoul be an expert on his type of magic... spellcraft limit those who has high inteligence... but a will save benefits the cleric more than the other spellcasters (again i use a cleric i have no trouble with this)
i say make it a caster roll, using spellcaster level (not mixing levels of cleric or wizard, sorcerer or wizard, but using those level of prestigue classes that improve on spell levl) + main attribute for spellcasting
to this you can add the Combat Casting Feat and others...
Possible downsides exist, however. For example, if a character gains Spellcraft from two different classes (like a mystic theurges), which of the two abilities should apply?
the first one, or as in a plestigue class that gives spell levels for more than 1 spellcasting class, chose 1 stick to it.
In 3.5, Concentration was a must have for any spellcaster as with the changes in Pathfinder, and with the current DC, anyone who kept it maxed could rarely fail. Would changing the DC to a Will save make things better? Or, would this change make spellcasting more difficult?
Thoughts?
this will benefit clerics mostly, but not the sorcerer or wizard who have no reason to have high wisdom, i like it much better to use spellcraft (even wehn i use a cleric)
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Personally, I'd rather see Concentration returned. It had more uses than just Defensive Casting (Rogue disarming trap during combat) if redifined right.
On the other hand, the ability to recognize a spell as being cast should fall under Knowledge skills... Knowledge (Arcana) for arcane spells and Knowledge (Religion) for divine.
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Personally, I'd rather see Concentration returned. It had more uses than just Defensive Casting (Rogue disarming trap during combat) if redifined right.
On the other hand, the ability to recognize a spell as being cast should fall under Knowledge skills... Knowledge (Arcana) for arcane spells and Knowledge (Religion) for divine.
i would prefer just to put penalties on the use of this skills
its simpler than making 2 rolls|
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What about a simple d20 roll DC = 15 + (spell level) - (caster's max spell level)
So it would always be DC 15 to defensively cast your best spells, but when you are really high level (max spell level 9 say), you are still defensively casting orisons at DC 6, easy, but not trivial.
The combat casting feat giving + 4 to the roll would make it a really useful feat to take, rather than the waste it currently is...
sounds neat
i like it|
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What about a simple d20 roll DC = 15 + (spell level) - (caster's max spell level)
So it would always be DC 15 to defensively cast your best spells, but when you are really high level (max spell level 9 say), you are still defensively casting orisons at DC 6, easy, but not trivial.
The combat casting feat giving + 4 to the roll would make it a really useful feat to take, rather than the waste it currently is...
So at level 1-2 I need to roll a 14, 3-4 and I have to roll a 13. I have to disapprove. I just hope some you guys need healing and cleric or whatever fails his/her casting defensively.
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So at level 1-2 I need to roll a 14, 3-4 and I have to roll a 13. I have to disapprove. I just hope some you guys need healing and cleric or whatever fails his/her casting defensively.I can live (or die as the case may be) with it. If anything, it will emphasise that clerics can't be healbots in melee. (And that would end a majour gripe of people who play them.)
i am not healing bot ¬¬
*mumble grumble* i cast my buffs before combat i heal whoever is alive after or when they leave combat or if it is relly needed...|
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I posted this in a separate thread, but it seems to have fallen to the bottom, so I'm repeating here where it is also relevant:
What if we look at this in an entirely different way. Instead of casting defensively needing a roll, what if it automatically works, but has a cost?
Any combination of these could be costs:
1) Casting time increases to 1 full round action instead of a standard action
2) You cannot take a 5' step that round
3) Your caster level is reduced by 1 (since you're not concentrating on the spell as much - this would make the option unavailable as a 1st level caster)
I'm sure there's other options to consider for a cost of casting defensively, this is simply off the top of my head.
If a method like this were adopted, two things would happen. First, the debate on should concentration be a separate skill again, or checks for it be based on casting stat instead of intelligence would go away. Second, the combat casting feat could be meaningful (instead of inferior to skill focus), and simply let you ignore the costs of casting defensively.
There would still be a place for a check to cast a spell under duress, such as when you are hit with a readied action, take continual damage, are on horseback, on a storm tossed ship, etc. In these cases, I like Jason B's suggestion to use a Will save.
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Let me throw another option into the mix.
I've never been able to reconsile the concept of a person being able to completely dodge attacks from an enemy just by thinking really cleverly. Not just that, but they can dodge all threatening attacks by being clever and still cast a spell complex enough to require concentration and complex handmovements etc.
I would like to see defensive casting rolled into the rules of defensive fighting.
You take a penalty to attack when defnsive fighting and gain an AC bonus. Go full defensive and it's better.
I think defensive casting should be the caster becomes harder to hit as if they had gone into a defensive fighting stance. They trigger AoO as usual and if hit, only then do they make a spellcraft.
Combat casting can add to the AC modifier instead of your sellcraft mod. (maybe +2)
EG caster may have AC 16 at first level (14 dex, +4 mage armour). Goes defensive for +2 AC = AC18, with combat casting makes it AC 20.
This still gives the caster a chance but also gives melee types standing next to them the chance to disrupt. If they're hit, the caster then relies on mental prowess to work through the pain.
At higher levels this actually makes casting in combat very dangerous, as it should be. It means casting types with high AC's can still mix it up in melee, but the others should be scared of getting into melee.
At the moment, casters with a high enough spellcraft (or will save if we go with that option) will pretty much auto cast. And that's just wrong if you've got three fighters surrounding you.
Cheers
Re: Will Save as Concentraton check favoring Clerics especially,
I don't really see this as that big of a problem. All the Casters but the Ranger now have Good Will Save progressions.
If anything, the new Iron Will/ Improved Iron Will (re-roll Will Saves) is now the most effective way for a Caster to avoid Spell Disruption while in melee, but it requires 2 Feats, which feels about right.
That Divine Casters are better at this aspect (because of WIS being Prime Casting Stat & Will Modifier) I think is really the least problematic in trying to "fix" the Casting Defensively/ Spellcasting Disruption situation (which was made too easy to auto-pass when 3.x got rid of casting time and allowed a Skill Check of 15 to avoid any AoOs completely). And "fluff"-wise, it would make sense that a Cleric's casting would be harder to disrupt, since they're just calling on their God - They don't actually have to be channeling Arcane energies themselves, as getting their God's attention.
I WOULD like to see some influencing factors to the Save DC:
I don't have a problem with clerics having the best concentration success.
They are spellcasters and meleeing characters, which I think make them the best candidates for concentration.
But concentration DC are really too easy past level 10.
This is due to the fact that DCs augment 1 point every two levels, while skills augment every level.