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In my playgroup, the sorcerer bloodlines have generally been met with great approvbal, but I have seen a distinct preference for the bloodlines that offer ranged attacks over melee attacks. The only characters who have shown interest in the draconic or abyssal bloodlines have been warrior-primary characters looking to get an extra attack without taking a -2 penalty. (This would appear to be rather ineffective strategy long-term, it should be noted.) Given the general state of sorcerer affairs - low BAB, low HD type, low AC - bloodlines that encourage low-level sorcerers to mix it up in melee seem like a generally bad call.
I can understand the theory, if not the application. After all, the bloodlines are the major.. *fails in searching for a word* "influences" for arcane power in one way or the other. I can't quite picture a sorcerer on the frontline for anything, (though oddly I can picture a wizard with Bastard Sword familiar) so maybe its more of a flavor thing?
As much as I hate to look at the numbers, the HD + BAB would keep me in the rear unless I multiclassed.. Barbarian Sorcerer? Hmmm...
Given the general state of sorcerer affairs - low BAB, low HD type, low AC - bloodlines that encourage low-level sorcerers to mix it up in melee seem like a generally bad call.
I'll agree that a sorcerer shouldn't be a front-line combatant, but I'll disagree wtih the general point. We've built a draconic bloodline sorcerer of higher levels who's met with great success.
She uses Greater Invisibility, a host of touch attack spells, and a level in rogue to stalk the back-lines of combat. A number of enemy casters have already fallen to her prowess; she can close with them easily, threaten their casting effectively, and hit back with spells just as hard. We aren't using them, but the Draconic Bloodline feats from a number of 3.5 books would allow her to boost her AC and combat abilities quite effectively.
As for level dipping, I think the penalties of no increase to BAB, low hit points, and mediocre skills are enough to keep the casual front-line fighter from seeing this as a "must-have" option.
Director of Games
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Given the general state of sorcerer affairs - low BAB, low HD type, low AC - bloodlines that encourage low-level sorcerers to mix it up in melee seem like a generally bad call.I'll agree that a sorcerer shouldn't be a front-line combatant, but I'll disagree wtih the general point. We've built a draconic bloodline sorcerer of higher levels who's met with great success.
She uses Greater Invisibility, a host of touch attack spells, and a level in rogue to stalk the back-lines of combat. A number of enemy casters have already fallen to her prowess; she can close with them easily, threaten their casting effectively, and hit back with spells just as hard. We aren't using them, but the Draconic Bloodline feats from a number of 3.5 books would allow her to boost her AC and combat abilities quite effectively.
As for level dipping, I think the penalties of no increase to BAB, low hit points, and mediocre skills are enough to keep the casual front-line fighter from seeing this as a "must-have" option.
This is exactly the type of roll I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.
I do not think I am quite there yet, but the sorcerer is coming along in that direction (well.. some of the bloodlines anyway, others have a different focus).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Abyssal Sorcerer's Strength Of The Abyss + Transformation + Brew Potion + Enlarge Person + Magic Falchion and other nifty magical items = Melee Sorcerer that pwns your face.
This is exactly the type of role I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.
Have you considered medium BAB and d8 HD? As To1 and others have pointed out, the OGL Battle Sorcerer variant potentially presents a MUCH better starting point for what you're visualizing than does the core sorcerer.
This is exactly the type of role I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.Have you considered medium BAB and d8 HD? As others have pointed out, the OGL Battle Sorcerer variant potentially presents a MUCH better starting point for what you're visualizing than does the core sorcerer.
Yes, battle sorcerer for some bloodlines please.
Though that will be a house rule regardless.
I had a player that used a sorcerer/monk. He was only third level but he was such a clever player that he scared me from the outset. I dread to think what he could cook up with the bloodlines on top.
He danced around AoW TFoE like Jedi.
This is exactly the type of role I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.Have you considered medium BAB and d8 HD? As others have pointed out, the OGL Battle Sorcerer variant potentially presents a MUCH better starting point for what you're visualizing than does the core sorcerer.Yes, battle sorcerer for some bloodlines please.
Though that will be a house rule regardless.
Tougness (PF beta version) will get you halfway there. It's already a bonus feat option for the Draconic bloodline (but only at level 7).
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It might be nice to see some sort of optional powers for Bloodlines.
Instead of *every* Draconic Sorcerer growing claws at 1st level, perhaps some of them learn to spit fire like a weak dose of Alchemist's Fire (Acid, Frost, Spark, whutEVAH)?
And then, at later levels, these choices can upgrade, to remain relevant at mid to high level, so that the draconic claw-dude has bigger claws that count as magic weapons and get extra damage equal to his Cha mod of their elemental type or whatever, and the fire-spitter gets a more potent 'spit' and eventually one that can affect multiple targets.
That way the Black Dragon-blooded Sorcerer might *still* be a craven Kobold, hiding in the back, spitting wads of gooey acidic phlegm, while the Feyborn Sorceress might go all glamered Faerie Knight and get all up in your face with her quasi-illusory greatsword and fullplate that sometimes seem to be just as good as the real thing...
Well the melee sorcerer is just begging for a tie in to the dragon discipline... that is if the DD didn't completely suck rocks it is.
If the battle sorcerer isn't an option being able to drop into a PrC that enabled it would be great. Currently the best option I've seen is the Abjurant Champion but that isn't core.
Well the melee sorcerer is just begging for a tie in to the dragon discipline... that is if the DD didn't completely suck rocks it is.
And yet, ironically, I find that four levels are roughly as good (or better) than four levels of monk...
Well the melee sorcerer is just begging for a tie in to the dragon discipline... that is if the DD didn't completely suck rocks it is.And yet, ironically, I find that four levels are roughly as good (or better) than four levels of monk...
Four levels of melee sorcerer? Sure because it isn't until 5th level or so that the BAB split really starts to show.
Well don't feel too bad, sorcerer with fire bloodline is better than an archer for the first few levels too.
Hrm.
Four levels of melee sorcerer? Sure because it isn't until 5th level or so that the BAB split really starts to show.Well the melee sorcerer is just begging for a tie in to the dragon discipline... that is if the DD didn't completely suck rocks it is.And yet, ironically, I find that four levels are roughly as good (or better) than four levels of monk...
No, 4 levels of Dragon Disciple.
4 levels of monk give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +1 ability to hit with a flurry of blows, occasionally an extra flurry attack, slightly improved damage with unarmed strike, slightly improved speed + slow fall
4 levels of dragon disciple give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +2 ability to hit with all melee attacks (+4 Str), an extra claw/claw/bite attack, improved damage with all melee attacks (+4 Str), bonus spells
No, 4 levels of Dragon Disciple.
4 levels of monk give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +1 ability to hit with a flurry of blows, occasionally an extra flurry attack, slightly improved damage with unarmed strike, slightly improved speed + slow fall
4 levels of dragon disciple give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +2 ability to hit with all melee attacks (+4 Str), an extra claw/claw/bite attack, improved damage with all melee attacks (+4 Str), bonus spells
Well you forgot to mention the monks speed boost, wisdom bonus to AC, plus awesome saves, evasion, still mind, maneuver training, bonus feat...
Also, it's not quite fair to compare what would be levels 6-10 with levels 1-4 of a class (you can't DD until 6th level).
Monk 6-10 is: Medium BAB, speed boost, AC Boost, 1d10 unarmed damage, bonus feat, slow fall 40', improved evasion...
Plus the dragon discipline likely had 5 levels of low BAB plus started out at the bottom of the medium BAB... so at 6th level his BAB is 3 versus the monks +4... I don't think it's so cut and dried as you paint it either way.
Well you forgot to mention the monks speed boost, wisdom bonus to AC, plus awesome saves, evasion, still mind, maneuver training, bonus feat...
Also, it's not quite fair to compare what would be levels 6-10 with levels 1-4 of a class (you can't DD until 6th level).
Monk 6-10 is: Medium BAB, speed boost, AC Boost, 1d10 unarmed damage, bonus feat, slow fall 40', improved evasion...
Plus the dragon discipline likely had 5 levels of low BAB plus started out at the bottom of the medium BAB... so at 6th level his BAB is 3 versus the monks +4... I don't think it's so cut and dried as you paint it either way.
Umm... new DD totally changes the formula here. As written right now I might suggest Monk 4, Sorcerer 1, Dragon Discipline 10.
Hmm, I think I'm gonna try exactly that combo out. Would be an interesting mix.
Yeah, the new DD seems to work well...
(almost so well I don't see why to advance the Draconic Sorceror to 20 -
Bonus Spells and 9th lvl spells of course, but for most of your career...)
and it kindof points the way for equivalent PrCs (Abyssal, Aberrant, etc)
Without those PrC's though, I don't see how the claws really work out that well for Jason's stated design intent:
TOUCH abilities not Melee Claws are what a high level "gish" Sorceror should really want,
since their low BAB doesn't matter as much, and they could presumably apply Supernatural Effects via them (like Fey),
or gain bonuses/enhancements to their normal Touch Spell effects.
That said, if the "Claw" Bloodlines are really "optimal" for playing with PrCs like Dragon Disciple, then that's fine, I guess.
I *DO* like Jason's thinking about letting different Bloodlines fulfill different roles like this,
it helps give more "identity" to the Sorceror class than just "Wizard who doesn't memorize Spells".
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It might be nice to see some sort of optional powers for Bloodlines.
Instead of *every* Draconic Sorcerer growing claws at 1st level, perhaps some of them learn to spit fire like a weak dose of Alchemist's Fire (Acid, Frost, Spark, whutEVAH)?
I agree 100%.
Despite the objections everyone makes whenever I bring it up, I'd still prefer to see bloodline feats from which a sorcerer selects bonus feats (the way a fighter selects bonus combat feats) in place of fixed powers for each bloodline.
I am, more and more, leaning to this approach for both Sorcerers *and* Wizards.
Rather than fixed Specialist / Universalist powers, and fixed Bloodline powers, both classes should just get their darn bonus Feats and spend them *if they want to* on various Specialist / Universalist / Bloodline abilities from a menu of options. Or hoard them all to blow on Metamagics, Spell Masteries and / or Item Creation feats. Whatever.
Bloodline feats and Specialization feats could then also be opened up to other classes, so that a Bard or Druid might have a Fey ancestry, and get some Fey Bloodline perks, while a Monk or Paladin has a Celestial ancestry, and gets some Celestial Bloodline goodness.
Meanwhile, Jabba the Sorcerer comes from a long line of Sorcerers who are completely human, and have never bred outside of their species, so he's got no Bloodline stuff at all, but he *has* spent a lot of time concentrating on Conjuration magics, so he *does* have a few Conjuration Specialization Feats!
It kind of came up in
this thread, where a poster was looking for ideas of what sort of archetypal powers would make sense for a Wizard, only for me to note that the Wizard is now practically crawling with extra powers that really kind of drown out any chance of adding more thematic stuff, like linguistic abilities or knowledge skill uses.
Well you forgot to mention the monks speed boost, wisdom bonus to AC, plus awesome saves, evasion, still mind, maneuver training, bonus feat...No, 4 levels of Dragon Disciple.
4 levels of monk give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +1 ability to hit with a flurry of blows, occasionally an extra flurry attack, slightly improved damage with unarmed strike, slightly improved speed + slow fall
4 levels of dragon disciple give: medium BAB, slightly improved AC, +2 ability to hit with all melee attacks (+4 Str), an extra claw/claw/bite attack, improved damage with all melee attacks (+4 Str), bonus spells
I was comparing a Sorcerer 1/Monk 4/Dragon Disciple 4 to a Sorcerer 1/Monk 8. So they both have evasion, a speed boost, Wis bonus to AC, maneuver training, Still Mind, etc.
With the new Dragon Disciple, it's pretty much a no-brainer.
This is exactly the type of role I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.Have you considered medium BAB and d8 HD? As others have pointed out, the OGL Battle Sorcerer variant potentially presents a MUCH better starting point for what you're visualizing than does the core sorcerer.Yes, battle sorcerer for some bloodlines please.
Though that will be a house rule regardless.
A thousand times yes...
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This is exactly the type of roll I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.
I do not think I am quite there yet, but the sorcerer is coming along in that direction (well.. some of the bloodlines anyway, others have a different focus).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Strange, I always thought the finesse, specialist combatant with skill in spells and the possibility of threatening in melee was the intended role of the Bard, not the Sorcerer.
This is exactly the type of roll I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.I do not think I am quite there yet, but the sorcerer is coming along in that direction (well.. some of the bloodlines anyway, others have a different focus).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
If that was the intention, then execution fails, creating a newbie trap instead. Melee will always remain a bad choice for a pure sorcerer, and staggered caster progression makes qualification for gish PrCs more difficult. As about the current state of things, no bloodline of a beta sorcerer is actually any good at melee. I mean, 1d8+1d6 base damage, with poor BAB and Strength at 11th level? That's not going to impress your barbed devil or cloud giant. In fact, they'll be grateful both for not unleashing arcane death instead of that, and for ending your turn next to them. Even at 7th level, that's nowhere near good. In fact, a beta wizard has a better potential in melee than a beta sorcerer at mid-high levels, because he can actually prepare for melee, most unlike a sorcerer. He can learn situationally useful spells (i.e., melee-enhancing buffs) just in case, while a sorcerer cannot; he can exploit the new polymorh line without damaging his ability to do everything else, while a sorcerer cannot; he can rebuild himself every morning, while a sorcerer cannot. He also gains necessary spells earlier. (And at low levels a sorcerer must be suicidal to ever attempting meleeing, with his low hitpoints, low BAB, low Strength, and without enough protective spells.)
I disagree diction, Bard is a generalist who can emulate all the classes, but to a lesser extent, he has buffs and heals like a cleric, a little arcane, a little melee, skills like a rogue..etc,etc. I think sorcerers as they are now would rock hard, if you gave them the health,armor and bab progression of the battle sorcerer. This would facilitate the melee sorc as well as improve the to hit on the very common ray attack sorc. It would also go a long way towards giving them a different nitch from the wizard.
Strange, I always thought the finesse, specialist combatant with skill in spells and the possibility of threatening in melee was the intended role of the Bard, not the Sorcerer.
No, the bard as it currently stands is mostly an incentive package for people who like Perform and Knowledge skills.
Strange, I always thought the finesse, specialist combatant with skill in spells and the possibility of threatening in melee was the intended role of the Bard, not the Sorcerer.This is exactly the type of roll I was hoping to see some sorcerers fulfill. The finesse, specialist combatant. Skilled with spells, but with enough prep time, a possible threat in melee.
I do not think I am quite there yet, but the sorcerer is coming along in that direction (well.. some of the bloodlines anyway, others have a different focus).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
That would be good, yet strangely Bards have virtually no direct damage ability - other than by weapon - especially not in a spell-casting variant of the role monks and most often rogues commonly fulfill.
EDIT: Diction, I do believe you are correct in that the Bard should provide that niche - unfortunately, they fail to do so rather spectacularly, imo, as many have pointed out.
I also saw it mentioned here that the Sorcerer should fill the gish role. Please no! The gish is a min-max/ munchkin/ power-gamer option that should NOT be included in any base class whatsoever. That would throw out any and all ideas of balance besides negating all the great advances in the melee classes that Pathfinder has put into place.
It is not a min-max option. It is one of the few real options for those players who wish to have characters that actually can kick ass in melee at mid-high levels (and are not buff-abusing primary casters). It isn't overpowered. It is usually considered to be worse than straight primary casters. And Pathfinder had actually nerfed all melee classes so far, although the fact, that we're likely to see massive changes to at least some of them, can serve as a ray of hope.
I also saw it mentioned here that the Sorcerer should fill the gish role. Please no! The gish is a min-max/ munchkin/ power-gamer option that should NOT be included in any base class whatsoever. That would throw out any and all ideas of balance besides negating all the great advances in the melee classes that Pathfinder has put into place.
Huh? Is it impossible to have a balanced character that can fight and cast spells? Do you disallow all clerics and druids from your games as well? (You might, but standard D&D and Pathfinder assume that they're allowed.) And, as FatR pointed out, a straight arcane caster is invariably far more powerful, if you're worried about "munchkin powergaming."
Concerning the gish issue: To my knowledge, a gish is a full arcane caster with a nearly full BAB. Granted they may not have all the spells a full arcane caster might, but they generally have access to 9th level spells by level 20. Yes, it is achieved in the choice pickings of base and prestige classes, but the results are still over-powered. Divine casters are generally not used for gish builds because of the lack of power in their spells as compared to arcane casters.
The "poster-boy" gish, at 20th level, would be Fighter 1/Sorcerer 9/Eldritch Knight 10; caster level 18th (one 9th level spell), BAB +15 (no 4th iterative attack). Contrast with a single-classed cleric (no multiclassing at all) who gets a +15 BAB and 5 ninth-level spells per day (4/day plus a 9th-level domain SLA), and who also gets domain powers and channel energy and full armored casting besides. Is the cleric over-powered? Probably. But it's a core class. Creating a "gish" who is LESS powerful by all objective measures is hardly "broken." And again, a straight wizard 20 can mop the floor with any 20th level gish build yet devised, so is he "over-powered?" Maybe, but again, wizard is a core class. But I haven't seen you lobbying to remove the wizard or the cleric from play. Why not? They're both stronger than your "broken" multiclass example, so obviously they've both got to go, and more pressingly.
So far this whole thread strikes me as a painful reminder of the spam that happend during Bard open play testing. We aren't getting a new 'Arcane Warrior' class, at least not in the Pathfinder PHB, this much Jason has stated before unfortunately. I would also like to see such a class fill the ARCANE shoes of Paladin & Ranger.
To make a Sorcerer Bloodline emulate the Battle Sorcerer(or whatever splatbook goodness) is likely over-powered, it shouldn't emulate anything, it should be a Sorcerer.
1. At what point does increasing every number(HD/BaB/etc.) the class has make it 'NOT A SORCERER'?
2. At what point does everyone play only THAT Bloodline because you've turned the Sorcerer into a 'Duskblade' with Natural Claws making everything else Sorcerer or Wizard look stupid. Pfffttt!
Play a Bard, Multi-class, or don't Multi-class... those are the options. But by all means, if you enjoy rolling stability checks and wasting the party's healing resources, CHARGE forward into the fray! Just don't cry when you get one-shotted. *grin*
Actually the current 'poster-boy' for gish has a BAB of at least 17, full caster level, and 9th level spells, plus some other abilities on the side depending on campaign and flavor, but all that is beside the point.
I've never really liked the idea of a sorcerer as just a gish. I don't mind it being an option, but I don't want it to be the only one.
Don't thank me, that's a standard build, MY personal gish starts at 8 natural attacks at 10 ft reach, has natural blindsense, flight, good AC, good BAB, good HP, low light, and darkvision, a whole host of immunities, and casts spells while in armr, and THEN actually starts casting spells...
email me for a copy. ;D
However that's still very far afield from where we are now: There are several problems with most gish builds, the need for preparation, and the needed avoidance of dispel magic.
Looking over at Lenny & Co. I feel pretty confident that the damage a Gish will do in the course of a single encounter is only going to equal that of any of the above stated company, and those where FAR from optimized. I'm not even convinced that a wizard's damage is so far ahead of the others anymore. I think it's a complaint that hasn't actually be analyzed properly, IMO.
Don't thank me, that's a standard build, MY personal gish starts at 8 natural attacks at 10 ft reach, has natural blindsense, flight, good AC, good BAB, good HP, low light, and darkvision, a whole host of immunities, and casts spells while in armr, and THEN actually starts casting spells...
email me for a copy. ;D
However that's still very far afield from where we are now: There are several problems with most gish builds, the need for preparation, and the needed avoidance of dispel magic.
Looking over at Lenny & Co. I feel pretty confident that the damage a Gish will do in the course of a single encounter is only going to equal that of any of the above stated company, and those where FAR from optimized. I'm not even convinced that a wizard's damage is so far ahead of the others anymore. I think it's a complaint that hasn't actually be analyzed properly, IMO.
I concur Abraham ^_^ - and I will endeavor to do such a comparison.
Looking over at Lenny & Co. I feel pretty confident that the damage a Gish will do in the course of a single encounter is only going to equal that of any of the above stated company, and those where FAR from optimized. I'm not even convinced that a wizard's damage is so far ahead of the others anymore. I think it's a complaint that hasn't actually be analyzed properly, IMO.
Hmm. I'd match a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin}/{Sorcerer/Bard}/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight over a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin} any day of the week.
Hmm. I'd match a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin}/{Sorcerer/Bard}/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight over a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin} any day of the week.
Well you might take that, I'm sure many people will, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Turin The Mad brings out with his analyse.
I really believe that's it's going to be much closer in 'balance' than people think.
Hmm. I'd match a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin}/{Sorcerer/Bard}/Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight over a {Barbarian/Fighter/Ranger/Paladin} any day of the week.Well you might take that, I'm sure many people will, but I'm looking forward to seeing what Turin The Mad brings out with his analyse.
I really believe that's it's going to be much closer in 'balance' than people think.
Ima sorry Sir Spalding, I failed to follow through on this ... *sighs* ... so much to do, so little time. >.<
Well I've had some interesting times playing a level 13~15 wizard recently and I have found (again) that damage spells in 3.5 just don't do it. I spent most of my castings on the followning:
Summon Monster
Haste
Ray of Exhaustion (usually twice)
Ray of Enfeeblement
Bubbling my team (resilient sphere, to save lives)
Enervation
Touch of Idiocy
Forcecage
Dispelling
My few actual Attacks tended to be:
Ball Lightning
Cloudkill
fireball (alpha stuck on this)
Telekinesis
Force Sword
The other mage spent his time casting:
Fireball
Rainbow Blast
Force Missiles
Chain Missiles
Force Sword
Bigby's Hands
Chain Lightning
While he did do damage, it was usually in the range of 30~45 damage to one creature... maybe another 20~30 to a few more. In contrast our Dwarven Defender typically hits 3~4 times a round dealing about 17~24 damage a hit (truthfully her build is much more the tank... she's around an AC of 50 and has rarely been hit).
My wife an sorcerer/rogue/arcane trickster has had good luck with Inviso-sneak attacks and has been the big damage dealler, getting in anywhere from 35~96 damage per round (her dice are swingy, and it depends on if she is using scorching ray or acid arrow against spell resistance).
The druid in the group usually stuck to huge elemental earth form for AC and slowly wittled away HP with attacks saving his spells for the flankers envitable 'splatting' when hit did around 20 damage a hit, 2 hits a round.
None of the fighters we have in the group are really designed for dealing a lot of damage. Feats have tended to be eaten up with other "stuff" for some reason -- not being my character I haven't really looked into it at length.
My spells have generally kept people from dying, and have resulted in less damage being taken by my team.
Next session I'll actually try my hand at nuking... some people yelled at me when I got annoyed when they didn't write down the healing I did for them (at my own expense) so I'm not worried about saving all the meat shields anymore >:D
(Lesson of the day: Don't annoy the wizard that keeps you at full health and brings you back from the dead. It's not healthy).