4E Half-Giants

[David Fryer]

I have always been a fan of half-giants, and I want to use them in 4E, but who wants to wait for the Goliath to come out next year? That's if the Goliath truly is one of the new reaces on tap for PHB II. So I developed my own, called Giantkin. It's my first time developing a race for 4E so let me know what you think.

Spoiler:

Giantkin
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 spaces
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Primordial
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Insight
Giantkin Fortitude: Giantkin gain a +1 racial bonus to their Fortitude Defense
Large Build: Giantkin wield weapons and do damage as if they were one size catagory larger.
Stomp: Giantkin can use stomp as an encounter power

Stomp
Encounter*Thunder
Minor Action Close Burst 3
Targets: All creatures in area
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d6+ Strength modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to 3d4 at 11th level and 4d4 at 21st level.
Miss: Half Damage

Giantkin were first created by the dark magiks of Bael Turath in an effort to create a servent with the strength of a giant but that could be controlled easily like human slaves. They succeeded with the first goal and failed miserably with the second. In fact soem tieflings still whisper that giantkin rebellion was as much responsible for the fall of their empire as the war with the Dragonborn.

Giantkin favor Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard classes.

[seekerofshadowlight]

I know little about 4e but how about bumping them to large and +4 str?

[WotC's Nightmare]

It looks pretty balanced with the current PHB and MM races. You might want to consider getting rid of the Fortitude defense bonus and taking stomp damage down to 1d6 + str with half damage on a miss. Then give them the ability to use large weapons like minotaurs to recreate the powerful build ability they had in 3.5.

[scott spicer]

I would keep the stats ass they are, because thats in line with other 4th ed races, and Id add the half giants 'large build' ability (i think its called that) from 3rd / 3.5. This allowed them to use large weapons, and might convert directly into 4th ed (although Icant remember seeing rules for weapon size). Just my two pennys. Scott

[seekerofshadowlight]

they should be able to use large weapons. If the rules allow it I would diff put that in

[TGZ101]

Looks pretty good. Balanced enough and in keeping with all the other 4E races I've seen so far.

The only thing you may want to change is the racial power. Most racial powers, from what I've seen, usually give you a choice of which stat your attack is based off of. Thematically, you can't give them very many choices but I think giving the character the choice of either Strength+2 or Constitution+2 vs/ Reflex would work well enough and give you some more versatility. (Check out the Earthsoul Genasi's racial power from the Forgotten Realms Player's Guide for some ideas).

Also, the damage and burst range is a little much, especially for a minor action. If you want it to stay a minor action I would take the damage out of the equation. Close burst 1 or 2 with the prone effect sounds more balanced. As it is, with an action point at first level, you could basically get 3 attacks in a single round that all do pretty decent damage (greatsword + stomp + action point @ 18 str =2d10+2d4+12 damage, even more if you used an encounter or daily power in there).

If you make it as standard action the damage and range sound fine. I'd maybe even make the damage 1d10.

I may change my mind based on the Dragonborn's power. Is their breathe weapon a minor or standard action? Is there ongoing damage? I'd check myself but don't have my books with me.

[David Fryer]

I took some of your advice and edited the stat block I posted. I added the large build ability and took the stomp damage down to 1d6. I did keep the fortitude bonus though, simpley because it does not seem that overwhelming to me to have a +1 to your fort defense.

[David Fryer]

TGZ101 wrote:

I may change my mind based on the Dragonborn's power. Is their breathe weapon a minor or standard action? Is there ongoing damage? I'd check myself but don't have my books with me.

The breath weapon is a minor action. The dragonborn's racial power was what I used as a model.

[TGZ101]

David Fryer wrote:

TGZ101 wrote:

I may change my mind based on the Dragonborn's power. Is their breathe weapon a minor or standard action? Is there ongoing damage? I'd check myself but don't have my books with me.

The breath weapon is a minor action. The dragonborn's racial power was what I used as a model.

Alright, that puts me more on the fence about balance. I was basing mine on the Earthsoul Genasi's racial power. Their's is a minor action Close Burst 1 that only knocks enemies prone. The Earthsoul Genasi also get a +1 on saving throws so I guess that's the balancing factor compared to the Dragonborn.

I detract my previous statements and dub thee "fairly balanced."

The close burst 3 with the knockdown ability is still pretty brutal but I'd have to see it in combat. I suppose the limiting factor of the burst size would be dealing with allies in the burst. Well, limiting if you're the not the type of person who doesn't care about blasting allies. :D

Overall, I think it looks good. Play with it a few times and let us know how it works out.

[Tharen the Damned]

David Fryer wrote:

Large Build: Giantkin wield weapons and do damage as if they were one size catagory larger

Hmm, I think that this is a very powerful ability. For most weapons this translates into 1 additional point of average damage per successfull attack. With weapons like Maul that use 2 dice it gets even stronger.

If I remember correctly, a large Maul would do 2d8 instead of 2d6. Using a power that gives you multiple weapon dice this is immensly powerful!
2[W] would amount to an average of 4 additional damage!
Combined with Power Attack the damage for a large 2 handed weapon is insane.

Given how stingy 4th is with additional attack bonus/damage I would consider creating a a racial Feat.
Taking Power Attack as an example and doing the math with average damage for every AC at every Level I would even suggest adding a -1 or -2 to hit if using a large weapon.

[David Fryer]

You're right, a racial feat makes more sense. I will have to playtest it both ways and see how it works out.

[WotC's Nightmare]

Tharen the Damned wrote:

David Fryer wrote:

Large Build: Giantkin wield weapons and do damage as if they were one size catagory larger

Hmm, I think that this is a very powerful ability. For most weapons this translates into 1 additional point of average damage per successfull attack. With weapons like Maul that use 2 dice it gets even stronger.

If I remember correctly, a large Maul would do 2d8 instead of 2d6. Using a power that gives you multiple weapon dice this is immensly powerful!
2[W] would amount to an average of 4 additional damage!
Combined with Power Attack the damage for a large 2 handed weapon is insane.

Given how stingy 4th is with additional attack bonus/damage I would consider creating a a racial Feat.
Taking Power Attack as an example and doing the math with average damage for every AC at every Level I would even suggest adding a -1 or -2 to hit if using a large weapon.

Well minotaurs and I think bugbears get the same thing. They also get bonuses to str, and the bugbear effectively gets one sneak attack die once per encounter. I don't think this half-giant is overpowered compared to them.

[David Fryer]

One change I do see that I need to make is that they should speak Giant instead of Primordial.

[Tharen the Damned]

WotC's Nightmare wrote:

Well minotaurs and I think bugbears get the same thing. They also get bonuses to str, and the bugbear effectively gets one sneak attack die once per encounter. I don't think this half-giant is overpowered compared to them.

I don't have access to the MM, so:

Even as Player race compared to the other player races?
Wow!

[David Fryer]

Okay, I have worked up a playtest character to test this all out. Here she is.
Oasis

Spoiler:

Giantkin Cleric 1 (Erathis)
Init: +0, Senses: Low-light Vision
Languages: Common, Giant
AC: 16
hp: 24, Surges: 8
Fort 14, Ref 10, Wil 16
Basic Attacks Morningstar +4 (1d12+4)
At-will Powers: Lance of Faith, Rightous Brand
Encounter Powers: Wrathful Thunder
Daily Powers: Beacon of Hope
Racial Abilities: Giantkin Fortitude, Large Build, Stomp
Str 17, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 10, Wis 19, Cha 8
Skills: Acrobatics -1, Arcana +5, Athletics +2, Bluff -1, Diplomacy +4, Dungeoneering +4, Endurance +2, Heal +9, History +0, Insight +11, Intimidate -1, Nature +4, Perception +4, Religion =5, Stealth -2, Streetwise -1, Thievery -1
Feats: Harmony of Erathis
Gear: Chainmail, morningstar, holy symbol, adventurer's kit, 25 gp

[Matthew Koelbl]

The racial power is very strong - but since the race itself has relatively few other bonuses, it seems balanced. The one thing I would remove, pretty much regardless of all other choices, is it dealing half damage on a miss - that is generally reserved for more powerful abilities, and it is already extremely effective for a minor action.

I think adding access to wielding Large weapons would work great as a racial feat; if you wanted to make it a standard racial feature, I think you would definitely need to tone down the racial power accordingly, bringing it more in line with the Bugbear or Minotaur racial powers. (Which is to say, remove the damage or make it a standard action, really.)

Edit: I see you've updated the original entry from what I saw before. I definitely think you need to tone them down from their new stats. My thoughts:

First off, for the sake of simplicity and balance, I'd word 'Large Build' the same as the Bugbear and Minotaur 'Oversized' trait: "You can use weapons of your size or one size larger than you as if they were your size." Stating that they can wield weapons as though the Giantkin was one size category larger means that it can wield two-handed weapons as one-handed weapons, which is extremely open to abuse - as compared to the way it is worded for Bugbears and Minotaurs, which simply lets them scale the die of each weapon up by one size. (Additionally, stating that they 'deal damage as if they were one size category larger' could be somewhat open to interpretation and how it interacts with non-weapon powers and attacks.)

Secondly, Bugbears and Minotaurs are currently among the most powerful races, due to being able to wield larger weapons. Dragonborn and Genasi are among the strongest due to having encounter racial powers that deal damage. Combining the two isn't an impossible thing, but giving them the best of both worlds - and then making those powers better - is going to result in an over-powered race (especially with the +1 bonus to Fort.)

Right now, even if you balance the 'Large Build' trait to work the same as Bugbears and Minotaurs, 'Stomp' is significantly more powerful than Dragon Breath, Earthshock, Firepulse, Predatory Eye, or Goring Charge. It currently has the best area (burst 3), best speed (minor action), best damage (1d6+key ability score, half damage on miss) and a status effect (knockdown).

Possible fixes:
1) Make it a standard action, make it burst 2, and remove half damage on a miss. The standard action cost is enough of one to make up for all the other benefits - and you could probably go ahead and up the damage back to 2d4, or to 1d8, or something in that area.
2) Leave it as a minor action, make it burst 2, and make it no longer deal damage. Add a racial feat to let it deal damage. This makes it basically the same as Earthshock - larger area, but without the friendly fire aspect.
3) Leave it as a minor action, make it burst 2, and remove half damage on a miss. Remove 'Large Build' as a racial feature, and let it exist as a racial feat instead. This leaves the Giantkin as having an extremely strong racial power, compensated for by not having as many other racial benefits.

I think the core of the race is great, but just needs a bit more tweaking to bring it in line with other races currently out there.

[David Fryer]

Alright, here we go with Giantkin 2.0

Spoiler:

Giantkin
Ability Scores: +2 Strength, +2 Wisdom
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 spaces
Vision: Low-light
Languages: Common, Giant
Skill Bonuses: +2 Endurance, +2 Insight
Fire Resistance: Giantkin gain fire resistance 5 + 1/2 their level.
Giantkin Fortitude: Giantkin gain a +1 racial bonus to their Fortitude Defense
Stomp: Giantkin can use stomp as an encounter power

Stomp
Encounter*Thunder
Standard Action Close Blast 3
Targets: All creatures in area
Attack: Strength vs. Reflex
Hit: 1d4+ Strength modifier damage and the target is knocked prone.
Increase to 2d4 at 11th level and 3d4 at 21st level.

Giantkin were first created by the dark magiks of Bael Turath in an effort to create a servent with the strength of a giant but that could be controlled easily like human slaves. They succeeded with the first goal and failed miserably with the second. In fact soem tieflings still whisper that giantkin rebellion was as much responsible for the fall of their empire as the war with the Dragonborn.

Giantkin favor Cleric, Fighter, and Wizard classes.

I decreased the damage from Stomp to a d4, made it a Standard action, and made it a blast. I also took Matthew's suggestion and removed Large Build, which will now become a feat. In it's place I added fire resistance similar to what tieflings have. This was something that half-giants had in 3.5 and makes sense thematically based on the short background I developed.

[David Fryer]

[/bump]

[Tharen the Damned]

I think the Class is balanced against the PHB Classes now.
I am still dumbfounded that Bugbear and Minotaur get away with the racial ability to use bigger weapons.
The Powergamer in me wants to play a Minotaur Fighter with a large Maul. Average damage might only be 1 point more per die. But the Potential with a critical. Oh yeah! Compared to my Human Fighter 4th level and crusing Blow that is a whopping 3 x (2d8) = 48 damage instead of 3 x (2d6) = 36.

[David Fryer]

One of the characters in my Nentir Vale/World of Warcraft campaign is a Minotaur barbarian. Playtesting can be fun.

[N'wah]

Tharen the Damned wrote:

I think the Class is balanced against the PHB Classes now.

I am still dumbfounded that Bugbear and Minotaur get away with the racial ability to use bigger weapons.
The Powergamer in me wants to play a Minotaur Fighter with a large Maul. Average damage might only be 1 point more per die. But the Potential with a critical. Oh yeah! Compared to my Human Fighter 4th level and crusing Blow that is a whopping 3 x (2d8) = 48 damage instead of 3 x (2d6) = 36.

They mention in the MM that the monster races are scaled for making your own monster NPC, and that their abilities might be overpowered. It's a DM's call to put them in a campaign or not.

Only PC monsters we've had in my game so far is a goblin (whose racial keeps him alive when the enemies rush him), and a bugbear DMPC I made (who hadn't found a Large weapon yet, so Oversized was just some words on his character sheet).

[Matthew Koelbl]

The new version looks good, and I like the idea to give the fire resist (which also makes sense due to the connection between giants and primordials.)

Since you made the attack a standard action, you can probably boost the damage back to 1d6, or even to 1d8 - but either way, it should work well as it is, either to kill minions or knock down everyone else. :)

[Tharen the Damned]

N'wah wrote:

They mention in the MM that the monster races are scaled for making your own monster NPC, and that their abilities might be overpowered. It's a DM's call to put them in a campaign or not.

Only PC monsters we've had in my game so far is a goblin (whose racial keeps him alive when the enemies rush him), and a bugbear DMPC I made (who hadn't found a Large weapon yet, so Oversized was just some words on his character sheet).

Well, it always boils down to individual GMs and Players. Of course you can have NPC race as a Player race and not overshadow other classes and/or races.

I always look at new rules and think how a powergamer could optimize them. So I just look at potential misuse.