The group I currently run has a rogue who is beginning to seriously consider the shadowdancer as a possible player choice. Now, thematically, I like the shadowdancer for this player (especially given that she's more about stealth than stabbing), but, in actual gameplay, the shadowdancer is really really lame. A lot of this lameness has been fixed by the new skill system, but it's still terrible. It has steep requirements, the only two abilities worth taking occur within the first two levels (namely, darkvision and HIPS), and the rest of the class kind of peters out. Its 'signature' abilities, shadowjump and summon shadow, are worthlessly underpowered, and the rest leaves the player with crappy saves and subpar attack abilities, usually at the cost of much much better class features. Right now, this is a 2-level dip class, which is something I really hate.
I'd really like to see some things done to make this class work. It's such a cool idea. In that vein, here are the things I suggest:
-Entry Requirements:too steep. Why do you have to be 7th level, take 2 'meh' feats, and waste skill points on dance just to get this class? Let's make it doable after 5th.
-Hide in plain sight: Move it so it isn't first level. This is the reason a lot of people take this. Let's make actually take a couple of levels before they get this power. 4th level, maybe?
-Darkvision: Same with HIPS. I'd move it to like 3rd level.
-Evasion: This is ok. Should become improved evasion if the user has evasion
-Uncanny Dodge: This is ok. What if the character already has this, as a lot will?
-Shadow Illusion: uhhh....can we get more uses of this or get it traded out with invisibility or something?
-Summon Shadow: Yeah, can we get rid of this? This is a terrible power. There is basically no use for this. It's terrible. An AC or familiar, maybe. But a 6 HD shadow? come on.
-Shadow Jump: Ok, this is really silly. This is kinda the 'iconic' power of the Shadowdancer and it just...lame. The wizard can teleport halfway across the globe or dimension door hundreds of feet, but you can only do it 160 feet a day at 10th level? LAME. This needs to be altered to be an X feet/round ability, and it needs to be usable as a move action. Blink Dog cohorts haven't come to dominate the world, so I doubt this, less powerful, version will.
-Defensive Roll: This is alright
-Improved evasion: As per my evasion suggestion (trading it out for improved for those who have it), this needs to be able to be traded for something else if people already have it.
-Capstone: Where is it? More crappy shadowjump and improved evasion are the level 10 bonuses? Meh.
I'm aware this class is for more than just the rogue, but it seems like the rogue, monk, and ranger all get screwed in different ways by ability overlap and subpar abilities. Let's make this class as cool as it sounds.
Thoughts? Ideas?
That's a subjective judgement. I've seen very effective shadowdancers in Living City. A shadow dancer is mainly a refinement of the rogue. It doesn't need a truckload of special abilities to make it shine as much as good use of what's already provided.
Shadowjump is not meant to be teleport. It's a tatical, controllable blink, and with the right timing can be a deadly prelude to several series of deadly sneak attacks.
Hide in Plain Sight's place in the class fits in with the suitably steep requirements.
The biggest problems with SD are that the few decent abilities come early then there is little to keep you around. Yes the jump is ok... but hardly impressive at 11th level when you get it. It should definitely be a move action or to make it really hot and 'tactical' leave the distance the same but make it a swift action, it's appropriate for that level. The shadow... is kind of weak but would be ok if it weren't for the fact that you lose XP if it dies.
Besides a rouge can spare the points.
Post skill consolidation, yes he can. I agree that spending a few skill points on a PrC appropriate skill is reasonable. Under 3.5 it was rough to spend that many though.
The other big issue with this class is that many of the class features (Evasion, Uncanny Dodge, etc..) are features of the classes which are most likely entering this class. There should be synergy with the predecessor classes not overlap.
That's a subjective judgement. I've seen very effective shadowdancers in Living City. A shadow dancer is mainly a refinement of the rogue. It doesn't need a truckload of special abilities to make it shine as much as good use of what's already provided.
Shadowjump is not meant to be teleport. It's a tatical, controllable blink, and with the right timing can be a deadly prelude to several series of deadly sneak attacks.
Hide in Plain Sight's place in the class fits in with the suitably steep requirements.
You have a problem spending some skill points in dance? Take a look at the class name again and what it does. Dance is a sensible prerequisite to this type of class and it's a nice character background touch.
Besides a rouge can spare the points.
Well, yes, it is subjective judgment. I've never seen a completely objective post about an RPG. We're both being subjective. You're right, it doesn't need a truckload of new abilities. I'm just saying the existing abilities should be made more usable.
Shadowjump isn't really that tactical. I mean, I can see how, once or twice per day, it can used really well, but most of the time, it's sorta just "Well, I can use 1/3 of my daily jumping to get to the other side of my foes...of course, I have to spend my whole action doing so, when I could have just used mobility to run through...I gave up sneak attack for this?". Dennis is right. If it's not made a per/round power, it needs to be a move action-> swift action. I wasn't saying it should be a teleport, I was using teleport as an example of other things that exist around that level. My question is, why do you have a problem making it a X feet/round ability?
HIPS really doesn't fit in that suitably. If it did, shadowdancer wouldn't be considered a level-dip class. And, yes, that's subjective, but it's the subjective opinion of a lot of people. I would rather move it back in the class, and then lower the level shadowdancer is available. That way, characters could still be getting it at around 8 or 9, they'd just have to have SD levels instead of rogue.
Yes, you and Dennis are both right. A rogue can spare them. I was trying to show that, overall, it has too steep of requirements. Dance isn't really a huge deal.
My biggest problem with the shadowdancer was the lack of progression for sneak attack and that shadowjumping was a standard action.
I would have liked to have seen shadowjump as a swift action so he could jump to a location and deliver a sneakattack.
Summon shadow adds interesting flavor. I remember on one of my rogue/ranger characters i took shadow dancer and had the shadow follow my friend who was the group leader (he was aware of the shadow and was the only one who really knew about it).
Whenever i did scouting, if the shadow ever went away that meant i was in trouble (normally knocked out... or dead).
When i went off with another party member to investigate, that party member backstabbed me (what can i say, we were in high school ;) ) so when i was knocked unconscious my companion knew to rush to my aid.
So after my semi long winded story, i'd have to say the shadows are a great roleplaying tool and can be used for scouting if need be as well.
Perhaps just uping the summon shadow into an actual AC/Familiar would cover the issue with it? My only problem was that it didn't scale well with the challenges I faced.
I tend to agree with the assessment on this PrC. I'm playing one in our monthly RL game, and I did just as you indicated - I took (I think) 3 levels of SD, and then decided to go back to rogue so I could get sneak attack back.
I would suggest replacing some of the gonzo weird abilities like shadow illusions and summoning shadows (since when is a shadowdancer a necromancer??) with sneak attack progressions.
HIPS is powerful - but it basically only allows the shadowdancer to hide. I mean, it's not like he's going to take out your BBEG doing that. All it means is that it will allow them to basically survive a TPK because the BBEG will simply have a really hard time finding him.
Hardly game-breaking stuff.
Summon shadow adds interesting flavor. I remember on one of my rogue/ranger characters i took shadow dancer and had the shadow follow my friend who was the group leader (he was aware of the shadow and was the only one who really knew about it).....
Interesting. I've honestly never heard of people really liking the shadow before. I suppose it just needs more HD or something.
Perhaps just uping the summon shadow into an actual AC/Familiar would cover the issue with it? My only problem was that it didn't scale well with the challenges I faced.
Yes, I'd also prefer it as a familiar, but after my 'Familiar/rogue talent' thread, it felt like beating a dead horse.
HIPS is powerful - but it basically only allows the shadowdancer to hide. I mean, it's not like he's going to take out your BBEG doing that. All it means is that it will allow them to basically survive a TPK because the BBEG will simply have a really hard time finding him.Hardly game-breaking stuff.
Yes, I suppose I exaggerated it. But it is something you see people level-dipping for.
As for replacing class features with sneak attack...I'm not sure that's a great idea. I'd like the PRC to stay open for the monk and the ranger. That being said, it'd be preferable to what exists.
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There was an assumption back when Prestige Classes were introduced that they need to be ten levels long.
In light of the effects that the Shadowdancer gives that are 'worth it,' I'd really think this is a textbook case of one that would work better as a five level, or even *three level* Prestige Class.
Dunno'.
The increased SJ distance is exactly what we are after. That's why the player is looking forward to the Epic levels where they double each time.> shrug <
It still needs to be made a swift (or at the very least a move) action. I can picture it now:
SD: haha, the power of my shadow jump has increased more! I can now move hundreds of feet a day! Fear my awesome wrath! Instead of wasting my turn attacking, I can go anywhere!
Wizard: You took shadowdancer? What about your sneak attack? UMD is a class skill for you. I could have just made a few scrolls of dimension-
Fighter:-Shhhh...don't tell him. It's better if he doesn't know.
Alright, alright, one of my players has played Shadow Dancer for around seven months in my ongoing campaign.
First, she really wanted shadowdancer since the beggining, but could not afford the feats early, so she only got at level 9. Allow me to say what really works and what not. This is not a plain "I see this rule is strange", but this is the result of actual gameplay.
Requirements: Trash. Really. But then, they are some feats that may help. Oh, hell, they are requirements anyway. Dance BTW is the coolest.
HIPS: This is the great ability of the class and should stay at first level. It allows some sweet things that only the SD may do. This was the reason the player wanted it.
Evasion: I know that the SD is notonly for the rogue, but it's mainly for the rogue and the monk. And then, at the level he gains this, the two say "I already have this..."
Uncanny Dodge: Alright here. It makes your UD go up to IUD, so okay.
Shadow Illusion: My player is not a powergamer, nor she is an optimizer, and she does not really even care about power, but this ability made her sad. Now, a weak illusion, at level 10, only ONE TIME? When I asked on these boards for some love on the SD some people told me to put this ability at level 1 and give one more use at level 3, 5, 7 and 9. So far it worked really nice. It's a weak power at best...
Summon Shadow: A shadow is a powerfull creature. When you happen to undertand that the shadow shouldn't be used to fight every battle, it's still a powerfull monster. Let's think, at level 10, a creature that can only be hit by magical weapons is not that much. But then, there are not many monsters in the MM at this level that can hurt a shadow. I am not sure, but having the natural weapons count as magic weapons for the purpose of DR doesn't make them count as magic weapons for the purpose of incorporeal creatures. The shadow is meant to be used against certain oponnents, and the STR damage is sweet. It's good as it is.
Shadow Jump: I understand that it may be best used to escape cells, go to other side of doors and all this kind of great thing that may save the life of the character outside combat, but I think that it should have a longer range. You can shadowjump too little each day to be usefull...
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Like "I already have this"...
Sllipery Mind: I can understand why it's here... Opportunist is so much more the SD type of ability!
Improved evasion: Now, really, rogues and monks feel cheated with that. My player said that. Gaining it at level 17? Really, there are TONS of games that END at or before level 17... The capstone ability should be something great like unlimited shadow jump or something like that, that maybe made the SDs go to level 10...
The greatest con: Lack of SA. Really. It was my player's greatest sadness. It didn't need to be such a great SA as the assassin or the rogue, it could be 3 or 4 levels, but at least HAVE SA. My player asked, besides all the RP reasons she had to choose SD, what was the REAL profit to chose the RAW SD instead of assassin in terms of power, and I said "well...none".
Ideas of changes:
1 - Move shadow illusion down to the 1st level of th class and give more uses at level 3, 5, 7 and 9. Not powerfull, but tasty.
2 - Give shadowjump more love. Maybe +1/2 range or something.
3 - Sneak Attack. Every rogue gets HIPS for easy sneak attack. At level 2, 6 and 10, or 1, 4, 7 and 10.
4 - Some ability. ANY ability at level 10. Something like "halves penalties for hiding. -5 instead of -10 and -10 instead of -20". Anything.
Well. The player still loves SD and she's enduring it. But I had to make some changes to praise her for choosing a colorful class instead of a powerfull one. And IMHO, that what the SD needs: A little more power on the greatly coloful abilities.