Monk - Perfect Self

[Tectorman]

So I become an Outsider. Do I get Darkvision? Do I suddenly become proficient with all simple and martial weapons? What subtype am I? As it stands, if a Ranger came at me with all of his Favored Enemies being Outsider, subtype this or that, and he had an armload of Outsiderbane weapons for all the subtypes left out by his Favored Enemies, he still wouldn’t ever be able to use them against me (not and gain any benefit from the Bane special weapon quality, anyway).

The subtype needs to be specified. Native or Lawful (and still able to be resurrected, of course), but it should be specified. Do I gain weapon proficiencies and darkvision? This needs to be specified.

Alternatively, it says “He is forevermore treated as an outsider rather than as a humanoid (or whatever the monk’s creature type was) for the purpose of spells and magical effects.” This, to me, can imply that the Monk’s subtype doesn’t change for real, but just for the purposes of spells and magical effects. Basically saying, “I’m a Humanoid (Human), and that’s how I get treated, but if you come at me with a magical effect, call me Outsider.” This understanding fixes the Ranger, but still leaves the Bane weapons in limbo.

[Arakhor]

20th-level monks are Outsiders (native, augmented humanoid), probably with their racial humanoid subtype as well. They would likely gain darkvision, but having no racial hit dice, they would not gain any extra hit points, saves or weapon proficiencies.

[Traxium]

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self's DR.

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Any thoughts, anyone?

[Ernest Mueller]

Traxium wrote:

Something that has been plaguing me since 3.5 and now even more with the Beta:

Perfect Self's DR.

The 20th level monk ability grants a completely useless form of DR. DR/magic is functionless at 20th level. What could you possibly be fighting that wouldn't have magic weaponry or similar DR to bypass it? This is made even more exasperating by the 20th level abilities of other classes (all excellent, granted) being very powerful.

My suggestion is this: Change the DR granted to 10/chaotic.

Similar to the way that the 20th level Paladin gets 10/evil for being the pinnacle of good, a 20th level monk is so devoted to law that the ability should reflect this.

The rest of Perfect Self is fine. The monk is a very solid class and doesn't really need to have Perfect Self expanded at all, but the DR/magic is totally useless and therefore makes the ability not at all comparable to what other 20th level characters get. At least to match the paladin, it should be 10/chaotic.

Any thoughts, anyone?

I'm unclear how it works in Pathfinder, but in 3.5e (as a major change from 3e) having DR doesn't let you bypass DR. It did in 3e but that got removed. I cant' find where that's addressed in PFRPG...

[Traxium]

Well, the actual wording of Perfect Self seems to imply that creatures with DR bypass their own DR:
"...which allows him to avoid the first 10 points of damage by a nonmagical weapon or by any natural attack made by a creature that doesn't have similar damage reduction."

Okay, so go back to my original point...who's going to be fighting a 20th level Monk without magic weaponry?

At 20th level, DR 10/magic is never going to be useful.

DR 10/chaotic is actually functional, it's a reasonable reward for 20th level, and it makes thematic sense for the Monk.

[Me'mori]

I'd say they may have gotten distracted with the idea of the Monk. Of all the classes, this is the class that always seemed to me to not need to be in a fight to have its abilities serve a purpose. Sure they can fight, but do they need to?

DR 10/Magic means that many normal animals that would be encountered in travels for understanding-- or just travel for the sake of it would be unable to damage the monk.

The DR 10/chaotic does seem a bit right, but if they become a manifestation of Law, or some sort of ultimate representation, that negates some of the idea of effectively placing themselves beyond the normal world.

Chaotic DR may be more functional, but the flavor just isn't there to me.

[seekerofshadowlight]

Me'mori has the right of it. Not all things should be looked at from a rules/numbers angle. The monks DR is pure flavor and changing that also changes that flavor

[Tectorman]

Except that DR/Chaotic makes the Monk just as "not going to be hurt by passing beasties" as DR/Magic. And it's still something useful in more than just a flavor sense. I mean, if DR 10/Magic is supposed to be there for nothing more than flavor, that's fine, but then it shouldn't be taken into account when deciding the power/utility/level appropriateness of the final class.

I had a separate thread for DR/Magic specifically, but since it's here, I'll go ahead and add this. Keeping with my disagreement that the Monk should be "Lawful only", DR/Chaotic would be more mechanically useful than DR/Magic, but it would also raise a problem with a nonlawful Monk (including from the perspective of the Monk trying to be beyond the mundane world).

So replace it with DR/-. Nothing says "I'm not of this world anymore" than the capacity to not be harmed (or be harmed less) by absolutely everything.

[Traxium]

Seekerofshadowlight: Exactly what part of the "flavor" is preserved by having an ability so weak it might as well not be written down?

Personally, nothing is more frustrating than going into every fight saying "oh hey, I've got this nifty ability--...wait, nevermind, it's worthless..."
This same problem arises with Bards far too often as well, but that's a different thread.
Monks are a combat class at the core (*any* class can be used to roleplay, don't use that excuse on me), and at 20th level they deserve an ability that stacks up against the other 20th level combat classes. As I said, the closest parallel is the Paladin, hence my insistence on DR/chaotic.

That being said, it seems that Tectorman has made a very good point that I'm sad I didn't think of myself. The 20th level monk has effectively "transcended" his normal form, 'leaving the world behind' as Tectorman put it. At that point, DR/- makes a great deal of sense. Obviously it shouldn't be as much as the Barbarian...perhaps DR 3/- or maybe 4/- at the outside (the Barbarian can double that with some Rage Points).

For what it's worth, I believe that it *is* very important to look at class abilities from a numbers perspective. You'll find no bigger fan of the Monk than me (and not just b/c of my irl black belts), and so I think it's important to make sure everything stays balanced not just against the other classes, but against the game itself.