| ruemere |
This is a fork (and continuation of my post from another thread).
Introduction
I'd like to propose major class redesign, since current (3.5) version of Monk class lacks clear focus (niche) and fails to deliver with regard to current role (i.e. the lightly armored highly martial melee artist).
Proposed methodology (i.e. steps to be taken to redesign class)
1. Concept (class function within D20 system).
2. Sources of inspiration (general overview of Monks in current culture).
3. Basic class abilities (general fields of expertise).
4. Disposition against canonical four (general comparison of abilities - to avoid stepping on someone else's toes).
5. Class design (suggestions).
Lights! Camera! Action!
1. Concept.
Monks are jacks of all arts, i.e. depending on class feature assignment, they could be casters, combatants and skill experts or mixture of both.
Their strength comes at the cost of hyperspecialization, however, their area of expertise usually provides ample amount of counter measures - so even a martial expert can go toe to toe with arcane spellcaster.
While it is possible to build such character around the idea of mobile and effective Dispel Magic/Mobility Controller/Skill Disrupter, they can also wield weapons and provide mystical insight into nature of things.
2. Sources of inspiration.
- Hong Kong action movies: grand masters of martial arts, mystical mentors, sages, exorcists, champions of common folk
- Anime: priestly overseers of shrines, spirit mediums, spirit binders, keepers of harmony and balance between this and spirit world
3. Basic class abilities.
- abilities divided into Martial and Mystical Arts,
- Arts are further separated into Schools (basically 1-3 talent trees) - it's all about following path to perfection, so all talents are chained
- all talent trees containt between 1 and 3 talents, with 4 special talent requiring access to 3rd talent from another School or another talent tree (the 4th talent, the master's talent is available once character diversify)
- class gains one talent per level, character may choose any talent provided they meet talent requirements (usually talent one step lower or availability of a tutor from a school)
- 4th level talents may require additional prerequisites
- Martial Arts schools use only Strength (Martial attack and damage) and Dexterity (Martial defense and DC) abilities
- Mystical Arts schools use only Wisdom (Mystical defense and DC) and Charisma (Mystical attack and damage) abilities
- to provide incentive for dipping into another Art type, 4th level talents may require 3rd level talent from opposite Art
- self-sufficient - limited martial weapon proficiences, additional abilities to use with improvised weapons, limited self-healing
4. Disposition against canonical four.
- unless hyperspecialized, Monk should be a mix of various class abilities,
- Martial Arts specialist should offer damage output equal to Fighter, with lower Melee/Ranged defense, higher arcane/divine defense (saves)
(i.e. same damage, less staying power)
- Martial Arts specialist should offer combat advantages equal to Rogue (Spring attacks, Sneak attacks [not necessarily damage bonus, low ability penalties possibly], ability to avoid attacks of opportunity)
- Mystical Arts specialist should provide adequate countermeasures to disrupt any spellcasting activities (read Mass, Area and Lasting effects for disrupting Any spellcasting, Any use of supernatural abilities), healing roughly to 1/4 of cleric of the same level, offensive spellcasting abilities limited only to close range negative effects (paralysis, deafness, blindness, mute, weakness, fatuge, exhaustion, sickness, nausea, panic)
- Mystical Arts specialist should possess adequate abilities to communicate with, bind, imprison, restrict, keep at bay, pact or banish outsiders, elementals, plants and undead (as per Cleric and Wizard of similar level), though their abilities should not be limited by spell slots but rather by casting duration (i.e. banishment of outsider could be a ritual requring long time)
- Mystical Arts specialist should be able to damage all incorporeal and negate advantages of invisibility/etherealness of opponents (Mystic debuffer of sorts)
- Mystic Arts specialist should be able to build barriers against specific creature types or create walls
5. Class design.
- two good saves of player's choice
- medium BAB (as per Cleric/Rogue) with specific Martial Art schools granting attack and damage bonuses bringing it on the par with Fighter
- specific combat manoeuver bonuses (as per Martial Art school)
- medium (d8) hitpoints with specific Martial Art schools offering free Toughness feat
- no spellcasting - specific Schools offer abilities mimicking spells
- Monk abilities Martial attack and damage - by Strength (i.e. melee combat)
- Monk abilities Martial defense and DC - by Dexterity (i.e. DCs for special attacks which cause negative effects - deafness, stun)
- Monk abilities Mystical attack and damage - by Charisma (for those abilities which deal damage)
- Monk abilities Mystical defense and DC - by Wisdom (for abilities which require saving throws)
- 4 skill points per level
- class skills as per Cleric and Rogue
Some reasons for this post
As written, Monk class is severly restricted. Its lack of flexibility and narrowness tend to discourage people from playing it. Other severe problems:
- unbelievably ineffective - most monsters may safely ignore Monks, even more so than Fighters
- artificially restricted weapons - this is an idiotic relic from times long gone.
- artificially restricted items
- MAD (Multiple Ability Dependency)
- delivery of Monkish items to characters feels very forced
- grievous design errors - no class focus, severe irrational limitations, terrible lack of strength (feels like someone's revenge on this particular class)
The class is also very bland. Each Monk will play exactly the same. There is no potential for customization.
My redesign proposal:
- changes mandatory MAD to player's preference
- removes dependency on GM's fiat to provide weapons
- allows Monks to become exotic Fighters without ousting Fighters
- allows Monks to be customized
- allows Monks to have their own niche of disruptors/blockers/debuffers
- allows Monks to specialize or develop toward versaility
- allows Monks (by taking abilities as per previous class advancement scheme) to be compatible to certain degree
Regards,
Ruemere
| ruemere |
I'd like to ask anyone following this thread to submit their proposals/comments according to this template:
1. Concept (class function within D20 system).
2. Sources of inspiration (general overview of Monks in current culture).
3. Basic class abilities (general fields of expertise).
4. Disposition against canonical four (general comparison of abilities - to avoid stepping on someone else's toes).
5. Class design (suggestions).
Regards,
Ruemere
DarkWhite
|
I like your ideas, particularly with regards to diversifying the Monk into the more mystical/spiritual defender role as often portrayed in current culture.
However, I wonder whether this new more mystical Monk might be better explored in a Pathfinder RPG Orient book? It seems a little too ambitious for the purposes of the core Pathfinder RPG. However, designing the Monk while keeping mystical variants in mind for later expansion in a future product without burning any bridges, would certainly be a good idea.
| The 8th Dwarf |
I'd like to ask anyone following this thread to submit their proposals/comments according to this template:
1. Concept (class function within D20 system).
2. Sources of inspiration (general overview of Monks in current culture).
3. Basic class abilities (general fields of expertise).
4. Disposition against canonical four (general comparison of abilities - to avoid stepping on someone else's toes).
5. Class design (suggestions).Regards,
Ruemere
Wow I was just thinking about this when I sat down to the computer.
These are just off the top of my head and half formed so I will need to refine them a massive amount.
1) The alternate.
2) The pankratiast (Ancient Greek martial arts athlete), Ninjas, Shao Lin, the Boxer Rebellion, Sohei,
3)
I was thinking that the Monk is spread all over the place and trying to fulfil too many roles at once.
Why not narrow the focus without removing options. That monks should be able to choose a school/Style like a sorcerer chooses a bloodline.
They should also be able to stop one school and pick up another, so monk could be Level 10 but have the benefits of level 5 in soft style and level 5 ninja style.
- Each School/Style has a few unique weapons
- Each School/Style has a few unique Ki Powers
Hard Fighting Style - bonuses to hit and damage,bull rush,
overrun focus on feats of strength.
Ki Powers:
Weapons: Tonfa, Yari, Naganata
Soft Fighting Style - bonuses to trips, grapples, - throws
Ki Powers:
Weapons: Chains,
Acrobatic Style - bonuses dodge flanking manoeuvring
Ki Powers:
Weapons:
Ninja Style - Sneak attack stealth and poisons
Ki Powers: Deceive the eye (Ghost Step)Distracting attack
Some other styles I need to think about
Mystic Style - Some Psionics
Divine Style - Positive/Negative energy channelling
Arcane Style - Hmmmm
Like I said I have a lot of thinking to do about this. But is this what you are looking for?
| ruemere |
Yes, this is what I am looking for.
There are basically two ways to approach a problem:
- fiddle with details, keep the general rules
- start with a generalities, and then correct details
The problem with Monk class right now, I believe, is that is lacks practical application. There are no in-game shoes to fill, no style and no options (much less power or versatility).
The few players who tried this class were quick to complain about these flaws.
Thanks to your suggestions it may be easier to bring together these options and possibly build the class the way more people will find enjoyable.
One request though - please try to avoid references to specific weapons. As long as the game relies on characters using specific items, GM will have to introduce such items into campaign - and Monkish weapons being usually of exotic variety are difficult to fit in.
Regards,
Ruemere