Hi Fellow Gamers!
First of all sorry, but I don't have time to read all the other messages. Please forgive me if I say something that is already discussed. I'am also not familiar with 3.5 rules, We use the 3.0 books. I don't know if a specific change comes from pathfinder or 3.5, but it doesn't matter. If it comes from 3.5 and it's wrong than it should be corrected.
After 4 sessions of playing Pathfinder beta, and 8 generated characters here is a list of thing I found worth to mention.
There are a lot of thing that I like.
The new skill system: Good that the skill are simplified, getting rid of the half ranks was also a good choice. New abilities of races. Rage pool and ki pool. Paladin's healing. Sorcerer's bloodlines, and wizard specializations. Removed the instant death spells (now they deal lot of damage instead).
I was unable to find the prices of poisons.
Sorcerer bloodline powers are greatly unbalanced. For example Draconic or Abyssal bloodline's d6 claw attack vs the elemental's d6+1/2 level ranged touch attack. Same for Destined (+1 save in the suprise round vs resitance to fire 10), or Arcane's metamagic adept.
You should do something about the detect evil spell. It can kill every intrigue. A single paladin can convert a carefully created intrigue game into kill the bad guys hack and slash, without a saving throw. No real defense exits against it.
I don't know if this is on purpose but I think you try to bring the sorcerer to the front line, by giving him power's with touch range: Abyssal, Fiendish, Draconic, Fey, Infernal, Undead all have touch ranged powers.
Domain powers are also unbalanced. Fire Domain ranged touch d6+1/2 level any number of times vs law domain take 11 once per day per person. Or Magic domain's hand of the acolyte (permanent mage hand that can fight from the distant) vs Evil domain's touch of evil (makes some count as evil for 3 round). I don't think these need more explanation.
For my taste the sorcerer repertoire of spells is too narrow. A level 4 bard knows more spell than a level 4 sorcerer, which is ridiculous. I gave the sorcerer +1 known spells for each level, that feels like ok.
I see that the 2nd level darkness spell is useless now. The fact that darkvision can penetrate it, is ok. But it can be countered (technically) with a single torch. Are you sure that was the intent: "Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) and light spells brought inside the area of darkness can brighten the area, allowing a creature to see normally in the light’s radius."
While you are at it you can correct the anomaly that is around light/darkness spells currently: light (lvl 0), continual flame (lvl 2), darkness (lvl 2), daylight (lvl 3), deeper darkness (lvl 3). My problem is, that the 2nd level darkness spell can only be countered by caster of at least 5th level. Or by continual flame, which is a bit costly. Light and darkness spell should appear on the same level (like in ADnD 2ed). So they counter eachother.
Copy n Paste error: Under Wisdom entry it states that wisdom is important for paladins, it turns out that it's not. Paladins use charisma for casting.
Hold Person: Good that you tuned this spell down. This practically was a 2nd level death spell. But now it's a bit weak. Let's say an opponent's initiative is bigger than the casters. Then he has 2 saving throws to make. Before the caster had a chance to do something. Even command is more powerful than this. The target should roll a new saving throw on the caster's next turn.
Endurance: "Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued." Shouldn't this be medium or heavy armor? Anyone can sleep in light armor.
Why did you remove the differences between different degrees of cover? Instead of 25%-50%-75%-90%, you have 1%-49% and 50%+. I don't know why was this necessary. It wasn't that complicated.
You tuned down the shield spell +4 AC (instead of +7). It stops magic missiles, but that still doesn't make up for the 1 min/level duration. No it's useless compared to the mage armor +4 AC 1 hour/level.
Combat Modifier. Good that we have a common rule for this. Bad that this masks the difference between the various maneuvers. I don't think that it's the same for the hobbit fighter to push the troll, trip the troll and grapple the troll. By changing the size modifier back to standard (but it's still called spec size modifier, for whatever reason), it's easy for a human to trip/grapple a huge giant.
That's it for know. If we play more I'll write more. :)
Brain
...
I was unable to find the prices of poisons.,
Everything that is not in PRPG book wasn't changed, so you should use your older books. It will be included in final rules.
Sorcerer bloodline powers are greatly unbalanced. For example Draconic or Abyssal bloodline's d6 claw attack vs the elemental's d6+1/2 level ranged touch attack. Same for Destined (+1 save in the suprise round vs resitance to fire 10), or Arcane's metamagic adept.
Elemental gets d6+10 ranged touch at level 20
Abyssal gets 2 claw attacks each dealing 1d8 damage + 1d6 fire + strength (not that hard to buff), they are magic and you are not unarmed with them.not that bad IMO, I think that you'll just use different build with each of those, although I'd like to see some progress with the claws after level 11.
You should do something about the detect evil spell. It can kill every intrigue. A single paladin can convert a carefully created intrigue game into kill the bad guys hack and slash, without a saving throw. No real defense exits against it.
There are protections against this spell even in 3.0 rules. Undetectable Alignment and Misdirection are level 2 spells, ... I think you can look for something else yourself. And hack-and-slashing anyone without a proof in intrigue games (where every third person is less-than-neutral anyway) should tag our heroes as murderers and send the rest of the society after them. DM can handle this easily IMO. So much for the lack of defenses.
I don't know if this is on purpose but I think you try to bring the sorcerer to the front line, by giving him power's with touch range: Abyssal, Fiendish, Draconic, Fey, Infernal, Undead all have touch ranged powers.
Or give them something that lets them defend themselves when something runs around the fighter (fairly common thing, not everyone wants to attack the fully armoured sword guy when there are unarmored spellcasters standing nearby - not everytime the battle takes place in a corridor that is easily blocked)
Domain powers are also unbalanced. Fire Domain ranged touch d6+1/2 level any number of times vs law domain take 11 once per day per person. Or Magic domain's hand of the acolyte (permanent mage hand that can fight from the distant) vs Evil domain's touch of evil (makes some count as evil for 3 round). I don't think these need more explanation.
Please read whole text. Touch of evil makes creature sickened (not in 3.0 rules, but you can look it up in url=http://www.d20srd.org/index.htm]d20 SRD[/url])
The character takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
The fact that target is considered good makes the character vulnerable to spells like Blasphemy.
For my taste the sorcerer repertoire of spells is too narrow. A level 4 bard knows more spell than a level 4 sorcerer, which is ridiculous. I gave the sorcerer +1 known spells for each level, that feels like ok.
Add the bonus spells for bloodline, it will even things out a little...
Endurance: "Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued." Shouldn't this be medium or heavy armor? Anyone can sleep in light armor.Why did you remove the differences between different degrees of cover? Instead of 25%-50%-75%-90%, you have 1%-49% and 50%+. I don't know why was this necessary. It wasn't that complicated.
In 3.5 it was already this way.
You tuned down the shield spell +4 AC (instead of +7). It stops magic missiles, but that still doesn't make up for the 1 min/level duration. No it's useless compared to the mage armor +4 AC 1 hour/level.
In 3.5 it was already this way. And it isn't useless it stacks with mage armour and any other armour, natural armour deflection bonus etc. spell (there aren't many spells that give SHIELD bonus and +4 isn't too shabby, is it?)
Combat Modifier. Good that we have a common rule for this. Bad that this masks the difference between the various maneuvers. I don't think that it's the same for the hobbit fighter to push the troll, trip the troll and grapple the troll. By changing the size modifier back to standard (but it's still called spec size modifier, for whatever reason), it's easy for a human to trip/grapple a huge giant.
Well, with DC 15 it won't be THAT easy. Fighter may have slightly higher BAB, but the giant has strength and DC 15 on his side.
Elemental gets d6+10 ranged touch at level 20
Abyssal gets 2 claw attacks each dealing 1d8 damage + 1d6 fire + strength (not that hard to buff), they are magic and you are not unarmed with them.
Still ranged touch vs plain attack. And do you think this power will be used by a level 20 caster. This is a low level power, should be balanced at low levels.
There are protections against this spell even in 3.0 rules. Undetectable Alignment and Misdirection are level 2 spells, ... I think you can look for something else yourself.
I know of these spells but doesn't really help. Only undetectable alignment last long enough to be ready at all times. Anyway detect evil is level 1. These are all at least level 2 spells. Meaning that the one who cast them can be 3 levels higher than the characters.
Or give them something that lets them defend themselves when something runs around the fighter (fairly common thing, not everyone wants to attack the fully armoured sword guy when there are unarmored spellcasters standing nearby -...
Rays can be fired to adjacent foes. So this doesn't explain it.
Please read whole text. Touch of evil makes creature sickened
The character takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.
The fact that target is considered good makes the character vulnerable to spells like Blasphemy.
Ok, I reread it, and found that these are the problematic domains:
Charm: simulates a 0 level spell. While the others are more like a 1 level spells.Law: This is partically a 1 shoot / partymember spell. And not that good.
Protection: This is a 0 level spell. It gets better later, but so do the others...
Glory: To restricted. Charisma checks are rare...
Madness: Vision of madness, it's very weak for a buff spell. And can only be used once per day. (compare this to Liberation domain's at will power)
Add the bonus spells for bloodline, it will even things out a little...
That is still only an extra 1 level spell at level 4, that is not choosen by me...
Brain
Still ranged touch vs plain attack. And do you think this power will be used by a level 20 caster. This is a low level power, should be balanced at low levels.
Well, you are still considered unarmed and you provoke Attacks of opportunity by making ranged attacks, don't you? I agree that the ray will be fired a bit more often, but I think that at these levels the sorcerer has some other (better) options in combat around level 20 IMO.
I know of these spells but doesn't really help. Only undetectable alignment last long enough to be ready at all times. Anyway detect evil is level 1. These are all at least level 2 spells. Meaning that the one who cast them can be 3 levels higher than the characters.
Well, the villain usually is on higher level and it shouldn't be such a problem to create magic items granting protection. You don't need to be protected all the time anyway. Just let the bafd guy plan beforehand and put the protection on when he's about to meet someone, who's expected to attempt such things.
I still fail to see how evil means villain. A paladin having to decide whether to help a stern, cold-hearted judge, who wants to maintain order and peace in the city (LE) or support a well-meaning, but radical rebel (CG) who wants to help the oppressed by revolution that can easily end in mass violence can be easily placed among classics.
Ok, I reread it, and found that these are the problematic domains:
Charm: simulates a 0 level spell. While the others are more like a 1 level spells.
Dazing touch is more powerful than the Daze spell. there is no save, so it means do nothing if I touch you.
Law: This is partically a 1 shoot / partymember spell. And not that good.
Of course, but it can save your skin. You'll be glad to have it when you are running over a narrow bridge (you can use it after you've rolled...).
Protection: This is a 0 level spell. It gets better later, but so do the others...
Aehm, this power says that you have a +1 bonus whole day and it increases every five levels. You can give it to someone else for one minute, but otherwise you have it all day long... hardly comparable to resistance spell.
Glory: To restricted. Charisma checks are rare...
Well, charisma based skills are not that rare. Bluff, diplomacy, disguise, handle animal, intimidate, perform, use magic device...
I think they get used often enough and this power is thematically based. I don't think it's that bad.
Madness: Vision of madness, it's very weak for a buff spell. And can only be used once per day. (compare this to Liberation domain's at will power)
Buff, no, that is not a buff at all (at least not always). How many times a day will you use your Liberation power? I think that with 4 member party you'll stop at 5 most of the time (it can be used once per day per person)... It gives a CHA bonus on attacks, saves, skill and ability checks for 1 round. Madness domain power gives CHA bonus to either skill checks, saves or attacks and penalizes the other two by the same amount for 3 rounds and it can also be used once per day per person. So in fight you can use your touch to penalize creatures (eat the skill bonus while you can't hit us and we're pouring spells on you). No save for madness... I think it isn't that bad at all.
I agree that sorcerer doesn't have the best spell selection, but that's what the class was always about at certain levels the bard does have more, but I don't think he can compare with the Sorcerer. And you do chose the spell, when you chose the bloodline...
Well, you are still considered unarmed and you provoke Attacks of opportunity by making ranged attacks, don't you?
Not if you take a 5 foot step.
I agree that the ray will be fired a bit more often, but I think that at these levels the sorcerer has some other (better) options in combat around level 20 IMO.
Only you are talking about level 20. I was talking about low levels like 1-5.
Dazing touch is more powerful than the Daze spell. there is no save, so it means do nothing if I touch you.
Well no save yes, but you have to hit with that touch attack. Roll (will) is replaced by roll (attack), and you have to stand in the target's treat zone.
Law:
Of course, but it can save your skin. You'll be glad to have it when you are running over a narrow bridge (you can use it after you've rolled...).
So does a fire arrow, when an ogre is charging forward and only has a few HPs left, and you hit him with a fire arrow. Come on, this is no argument.
Protection: Aehm, this power says that you have a +1 bonus whole day and it increases every five levels. You can give it to someone else for one minute, but otherwise you have it all day long... hardly comparable to resistance spell.
Right. I missed that. Than it's ok.
No save for madness... I think it isn't that bad at all.
Still you need an attack roll. And the std clerics (dmg) charisma score 12. Meaning a poor -1 on attacks and saves. +1 for friends. Even a 0 level guidance can do more than that. Not to mention the 1st level bane/bless.
Hand of the acolyte doesn't require high charimsa, to be useful...
And you do chose the spell, when you chose the bloodline...
Not exactly. You choose a list of spells and powers, not individual spells.
I still fail to see how evil means villain. A paladin having to decide whether to help a stern, cold-hearted judge, who wants to maintain order and peace in the city (LE) or support a well-meaning, but radical rebel (CG) who wants to help the oppressed by revolution that can easily end in mass violence can be easily placed among classics.
Evil doesn't mean villain. But means potential villain. The villain is someone the PC are not aware of. The first time they meet, they will no that he is a potential bad guy. And so all his servants (who are generally evil too). So the plot changes from "who is the bad guy on the ship" to "why is the captain the bad guy on the ship". Or they didn't board the ship in the first place...
I don't mind that some of the servants are suspicios, becuse they are evil. But if thay had a saving throw, it wouldn't mean automatic success.Anyway what about Darkness spell and the Hold Person. Got missed in the big discussion.
Brain
Well, you are still considered unarmed and you provoke Attacks of opportunity by making ranged attacks, don't you?
Not if you take a 5 foot step.
I keep forgetting about that when I'm not in combat, although we usually have more people around to sour caster's life.
We also require spellcasters to have both hands free to do any spellcasting (and ray firing) and give a -4 AC penalty to anyone trying to fight against weapon with empty arms (uless he has special training a weapon or a shield), so he's geting the unarmed penalty or losing actions/feats not to do so. I forgot that it isn't core :D
I agree that the ray will be fired a bit more often, but I think that at these levels the sorcerer has some other (better) options in combat around level 20 IMO.
Only you are talking about level 20. I was talking about low levels like 1-5.
On these levels the caster can get into fights quite often... After that he'll do better with his spells.
Dazing touch is more powerful than the Daze spell. there is no save, so it means do nothing if I touch you.
Well no save yes, but you have to hit with that touch attack. Roll (will) is replaced by roll (attack), and you have to stand in the target's treat zone.
Well, with Cleric's role in combat he usually has enough opportunities to use this and the touch also isn't limited by target's HD. Higher level monsters tend to have high AC due to natural armour or the armour they wear. Neither of those prevents touch attacks. Telling a Great Wyrm to do nothing is still a good thing IMO, not to mention that by using this touch you also stop any possible AoO from target, but I agree that there could be a bit longer duration to the effect.
Law:
Of course, but it can save your skin. You'll be glad to have it when you are running over a narrow bridge (you can use it after you've rolled...).
So does a fire arrow, when an ogre is charging forward and only has a few HPs left, and you hit him with a fire arrow. Come on, this is no argument.
Well, it means that the group won't totally suck in one task 1/day usefullness of this power really depends on adventure construction. You can prevent that natural 1 when you need that. I don't say that it's a super power, but it's in line with 1st level spells IMO.
No save for madness... I think it isn't that bad at all.
Still you need an attack roll. And the std clerics (dmg) charisma score 12. Meaning a poor -1 on attacks and saves. +1 for friends. Even a 0 level guidance can do more than that. Not to mention the 1st level bane/bless.
Hand of the acolyte doesn't require high charimsa, to be useful...
Well, for me the cleric will have enough opportunity to use the madness ability and I'll be probably constructing my cleric around the abilities I'll want to give him. Not to mention that you can have a cloak of charisma on higher levels or Eagle's splendor on lower.
Te Hand of the Acolyte needs also a standard action every round to exist, so while it doesn't suck with low charisma, it also requires you to limit your own actions while it is in effect. Again I don't think it's that good.
Not exactly. You choose a list of spells and powers, not individual spells.
And you do chose the spell, when you chose the bloodline...
Well, that's what I meant. My English sometimes fails me...
To evil I think that the servants and underlings don't necessarily have to be evil. An evil person may employ (manipulate) good people, since they are trustworthy and even the worst bad guy likes to have such employees. He only doesn't give them the dirty jobs and keeps his agenda hidden from them (His PR staff looks innocent). Using more evil NPCs is also handy. As I said, normally 1/3 of the population can be evil. These people aren't murderers or something lke that, their personalities are hardly likable, but they have relatively normal lives, say their prayers to bane to get a beter position in their jobs for their children, ... In intrigue games you can throw around decoys, use nonevil villains and nongood helpers. LE ship captain is not necesarily the cause of all trouble, but let the PCs burn their fingers by trying something on him... Detect evil is more suited for dungeon crawls than for intrigue games. It takes DM some work to run such games under these rules, but it's possible. I also like to place a powerful fiend here and there that is otherwise unrelated to the story (or even helpful in certain ways). PCs have already learned that openly detecting on a person can have some really bad consequences. Casting such spells in my games is usually a conversation ender and possibly enmity starter, even with good NPCs.
There is also a rather obscure feat called Veil of Cyric in FR Waterdeep Book (p.146) although it's really useful only for divine casters.
I didn't have much to say toward darkness and hold person, but let's have a look...
I don't understand why Darkness was tuned down. Of course that it does more to those without darkvision or light source, but otherwise it was toned down. Technically it only works against light sources outside of spell area, which is really dumb.
Hold person on the other hand works well IMO. If you make the second save then you still lose one round since making the save is a full-round action. So it only prevents the caster from coup-de-gracing you. The spell is already this way in my 3.5 book.
...
I was unable to find the prices of poisons.,
Everything that is not in PRPG book wasn't changed, so you should use your older books. It will be included in final rules.
Sorcerer bloodline powers are greatly unbalanced. For example Draconic or Abyssal bloodline's d6 claw attack vs the elemental's d6+1/2 level ranged touch attack. Same for Destined (+1 save in the suprise round vs resitance to fire 10), or Arcane's metamagic adept.
Elemental gets d6+10 ranged touch at level 20
Abyssal gets 2 claw attacks each dealing 1d8 damage + 1d6 fire + strength (not that hard to buff), they are magic and you are not unarmed with them.not that bad IMO, I think that you'll just use different build with each of those, although I'd like to see some progress with the claws after level 11.
You should do something about the detect evil spell. It can kill every intrigue. A single paladin can convert a carefully created intrigue game into kill the bad guys hack and slash, without a saving throw. No real defense exits against it.
There are protections against this spell even in 3.0 rules. Undetectable Alignment and Misdirection are level 2 spells, ... I think you can look for something else yourself. And hack-and-slashing anyone without a proof in intrigue games (where every third person is less-than-neutral anyway) should tag our heroes as murderers and send the rest of the society after them. DM can handle this easily IMO. So much for the lack of defenses.
Or give them something that lets them defend themselves when something runs around the fighter (fairly common thing, not everyone wants to attack the fully armoured sword guy when there are unarmored spellcasters standing nearby -...
I don't know if this is on purpose but I think you try to bring the sorcerer to the front line, by giving him power's with touch range: Abyssal, Fiendish, Draconic, Fey, Infernal, Undead all have touch ranged powers.
I'm in agreement with Zmar. I have had no problems with the sorcerer's effects being overpowering. They seem perfectly on-par to me.
Sorry I can't be more helpful.
Sorcerer bloodline powers are greatly unbalanced. For example Draconic or Abyssal bloodline's d6 claw attack vs the elemental's d6+1/2 level ranged touch attack.
The claw attacks aren't that bad. You get two of them, and you get to add your strength score to the damage. Your average sorcerer will probably prefer the ranged thing, but a melee-oriented sorcerer/fighter or something like that, you'll probably think to hell with the elemental thing, and from hell with the claws. Or, rather, Abyss.
You should do something about the detect evil spell. It can kill every intrigue. A single paladin can convert a carefully created intrigue game into kill the bad guys hack and slash, without a saving throw. No real defense exits against it.
There's always undetectable alignment. And misdirection. And the fact that being evil is not necessarily a crime.
I don't know if this is on purpose but I think you try to bring the sorcerer to the front line, by giving him power's with touch range: Abyssal, Fiendish, Draconic, Fey, Infernal, Undead all have touch ranged powers.
Yeah. Not all bloodlines have something like that, but some do, so if you want a melee-sorcerer, you can have it. Options, options, options.
Copy n Paste error: Under Wisdom entry it states that wisdom is important for paladins, it turns out that it's not. Paladins use charisma for casting.
It's more a "didn't get it all when we changed the paladin's spellcasting from wis to cha".
Hold Person: Good that you tuned this spell down. This practically was a 2nd level death spell.
Actually, that's one of the 3.5 changes.
But now it's a bit weak. Let's say an opponent's initiative is bigger than the casters. Then he has 2 saving throws to make. Before the caster had a chance to do something.
Not quite correct: The victim always has 2 saves before the caster himself gets to do a coup-de-crace, unless you cast the spell quickened:
Caster uses his standard action to cast hold person, victim gets save. Save fails.
Now, it's the victim's turn, and he gets to make another save s a full-round action. It's always like that since the official rule is that initiative is rolled once, at the beginning of combat, and after that the order stays the same (unless someone delays or readies). So after it's the caster's turn, it will always be the victim's turn before the caster's at it again.
But work together with a rogue and things get nasty for held victims.
Even command is more powerful than this. The target should roll a new saving throw on the caster's next turn.
It's a full-round action to make the save, so you always lose the action. And, as I said, if you work together with an accomlice, you can turn it into a 2nd-level death spell again. Sure, he gets a save for the coup, but unless you work together with a commoner trying to beat the guy to death with his fist, it's going to be great fun. Fort DC equal to 10 plus the damage of a crit, maybe including sneak attack? Ouchy.
Endurance: "Also, you may sleep in light or medium armor without becoming fatigued." Shouldn't this be medium or heavy armor? Anyone can sleep in light armor.
I guess it's for completion's sake. Plus, it's like that in 3.5e.
Why did you remove the differences between different degrees of cover? Instead of 25%-50%-75%-90%, you have 1%-49% and 50%+. I don't know why was this necessary. It wasn't that complicated.
Partial cover and the like was already gone in 3.5.
You tuned down the shield spell +4 AC (instead of +7).
Again, 3.5e. It's only +4 now, but you don't have to say which side it protects you against any more.
It stops magic missiles, but that still doesn't make up for the 1 min/level duration. No it's useless compared to the mage armor +4 AC 1 hour/level.
It's not useless. The two work well together.
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Also, the Bloodline and School powers are (in most cases) meant to be tactical or offensive options when you run out of spells, so that if the others wish to keep on insteading of resting, you can still do something else than "slinging out your light crossbow". In other words, they're meant to eliminate -- or at least minimize -- the dreaded "15 min. adventuring day"-effect so common in 3E. Some of them may need a bit "tweaking" (e.g. Hand of the Apprentice), but many of them are mechanically and thematically very nice. And, there are also ways to deliver touch attacks as ranged touch attacks (a favourite tactic employed by many evil villains in my campaign).