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I read Jason's blog today, where he discussed Prestige Classes in the 3.5 DMG, and I made the following comment.
One suggestion might be to just remove Duellist, Eldritch Knight and Blackguard from the list of prestige classes and eventually turn them into full base classes.
After all, all three are rather standard character archetypes, and shouldn't really be prestige classes.
We've been discussing this on the Paizo Chat room too, and I figured I'd post on here so we get more ideas from more people. My idea, slightly more matured now after that debate on the chat room, is this. Firstly, remove Blackguard, Duellist and Eldritch Knight as PrC's. Why should they be removed? Because they are character archetypes. Prestige Classes should be Prestigious, not used for character archetypes, which ideally should be base classes.
After removing those classes as PrC's, they should be turned into Base Classes, like so.
Blackguard: This one can become one of two things. An Alternate Paladin, with the alternate rules written directly into the class. So, you'd have a paragraph in the Paladin write up that says something like 'You can also choose to play an Anti-Paladin/Blackguard etc. In that case, switch every ability that mentions good to evil, change remove disease to cause disease etc.' This would have the clear advantage of saving space.
Or, a full class could be created as an Evil Paladin. My problem with this is that it'd take too much space, for what would possibly be an almost carbon copy of the Paladin class.
Duellist: WoTC have already published a Duelist like base class, namely the Swashbuckler. I think that one made for Pathfinder would be good, especially if Nick Logue made it. A Fighter/Rogue isn't really suitable for the Duellist archetype, as anyone who's read the Three Musketeers books can see. A proper Duellist is a mix of light or no armour, light weapons and lots of charisma, flare, panache and flamboyance. A Fighter/Rogue can't do all that.
I am highly confident, looking at things like The Art of the Duel Indulgence, that a really good class like this could be made for Pathfinder.
Eldritch Knight: This is the tricky one. A proper gish should really be available from Level 1, in my opinion, but I'm not sure how it can be done. I liked the Duskblade class somewhat, but I think we can do better. Just got no idea how to!
So, thoughts from you lot? Should Duellist, Blackguard and Eldritch Knight remain PrC's, be changed, or removed and turned into base classes?
Isn't the duelist pretty close to Swashbuckler? Maybe make a conjunction of those.
The cool Idea on the blackguard is to be made a class you "fall into". but maybe this PrC deserves full class attention since usually those pesky Blackguards are important NPCs (or wicked PCs)
ANd the eldritch Knight I would say go for it. Most of the time my players want to make a mix of melle/arcane and they endup with the same PrC, so why not make a Core class with the desired melee/arcane abilities that can deviate into different PrCs if required.
Thats my simple point of view
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'd be fine with this. There could be some backwards compatibility issues if those classes aren't present at launch for all of the 3.5 material that has NPCs that use those prestige classes, but it shouldn't be too hard to use the old 3.5 stat block, add a few feats, adjust hp and just use as is until the revised full class versions are out.
My only concern is the EK. This is a gish type, but it's a very bland one. How would it stack up to a fighter/wizard, or to any of the more specialized prestige classes for gish (spellsword, bladesinger, green star adept, etc.) The arcane trickster has a stchick beyond just rogue/wizard, with his ranged thief abilities, but the EK's got nothing other than filling the multi-cla&* h@~!. The same goes for the Mystic Theurge. I think that all three of these probably need a unified solution so that they work. Alternatively, a fix to the multiclassing rules that would eliminate the need for these would be great also.
I agree that a warrior arcanist base class would be more than welcome, but that the eldritch knight offers nearly nothing in terms of flavour or rules ideas.
I'd say classes like spellsword, duskblade, runeblade, and maybe bladesinger should be used as inspiration for a completely new class here.
I don't know whether all this is feasible for PF RPG, though.
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I think that a Fighter/Mage gish type class that's built upon any of the previous classes/prcs that did it would be fairly good. My all time favourite was the Bladesinger, though that might be a bit too tied in with Elves. Don't see how that influence couldn't be removed though.
I do think that this plan is workable in the PFRPG though. Heck, I'd be happy with more Base Classes to deal with character archetypes, like the Commander/Leader type.
I've rewritten the swashbuckler and duelist class features as fighter feat chains. So, a fighter (or foghter/rogue) CAN fill those roles, in my campaigns. Likewise, I turned the Arcane Archer into an extended feat chain, and the Samurai, and the Hexblade and Spellsword and Bladesinger can be built as Eldritch Knights with appropriate feats. I never understood the need for many of the "new" classes that were simply old ones with one or two new features.
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I have always been interested in playing a Duelist or EK. My main problem has been lack or requirements (fighter/rogues don't really cut it for the duelist) or lack of RP inspiration (in the case of the EK). Seems to me the Duelist really ought to be a base class, there is a niche for it in PRPG. EK is somewhat more difficult since it doesn't have anything fanciful. Fighter/wizards (or any other arcane spellcaster) could easily fill the role of the EK so it would probably require something new in order to base class it up.
Blackguard, in my opinion, seems fine. They are like an anti-paladin but with some added, nasty surprises (poison use, sneak attacks, extra abilities if a fallen paladin). Maybe instead of altering the Blackguard from PrC there could be mention of the OGL variant paladin classes (Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny, and Slaughter)? Of course the Blackguard as a PrC would probably need some additions/alterations to help differentiate it from the variants.
P.S. Sorry for the verbosity, I'm terrible at being concise.
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I've rewritten the swashbuckler and duelist class features as fighter feat chains. So, a fighter (or foghter/rogue) CAN fill those roles, in my campaigns. Likewise, I turned the Arcane Archer into an extended feat chain, and the Samurai, and the Hexblade and Spellsword and Bladesinger can be built as Eldritch Knights with appropriate feats. I never understood the need for many of the "new" classes that were simply old ones with one or two new features.
You could likely rewrite the Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin as Fighter feat chains too. But the appeal of Base classes, is that their role, background, purpose and abilities are clearly identified, and easy for new players to pick up and run, without having to sort through Feats or plan ahead for Prestige Class qualifications.
In all my time playing 3.0/3.5, I have never had a character pick up a Prestige Class. I have been interested in many I have seen in various sourcebooks, but never had a character advance that high, or planned ahead enough to qualify. This has been frustrating as a player, when many of these concepts would have appealed to me if taken from 1st level (or at least low-level - 3rd-4th).
For this reason, variant class features (Fighter trades bonus feats for sneak attack progression), new base classes (Warlock, Dragon Shaman etc) or prestige classes with easily achievable pre-reqs (Return to Castle Ravenloft) really appeal to me.
I would vote for leaving Prestige Class rules OUT of the Pathfinder RPG hardcover entirely (this book really is getting TOO BIG), and devoting a new book to new Prestige and Base Class concepts. There are SO MANY Prestige Classes out there, I really don't regard the ones in the SRD to be sacred cows. Pathfinder could come up with their own Prestige and Base Class concepts.
You could likely rewrite the Barbarian, Ranger, Paladin as Fighter feat chains too.
The thought had actually crossed my mind; truth be told, I'd prefer a GURPS-like character building system. Barring that, I love variant class features. More options are great! Why not allow the Hexblade, for example, to be played as a class unto itself, or as a collection of feats? Two hexblades in the same campaign could have different "classes" on their character sheets, but similar abilities at the end of the day: I can build mine with feats, you can take the "package deal" class, and we both have just as much fun.
I'd be totally on board with a Big Book of Classes!
Chapter One: Variant class features.
Chapter Two: New base classes.
Chapter Three: Prestige classes.
Chapter Four: Prestige classes as feat chains...
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I'd be totally on board with a Big Book of Classes!
Chapter One: Variant class features.
Chapter Two: New base classes.
Chapter Three: Prestige classes.
Chapter Four: Prestige classes as feat chains...
A book dedicated to classes would be incredibly helpful. I'd also be interested to see some prestige classes as feat chains.
I'd also be interested to see some prestige classes as feat chains.
I'd be happy to email you what I've done so far.
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Feat chains are an interesting idea, but one that moves us too far away from 3.5 to keep with the PFRPG's primary purpose. However, I feel that changing the three PrC's into three base classes, as the PrC's take the role of character archetypes, something I feel should be left to base classes, would keep with the PFRPG's other purpose. Namely to improve 3.5.
It's even backwards compatible.
Not that I've found. I'll send you the email this evening, if I get a chance... (dunno, though, "Appaloosa" is out, so that may be a priority... in which case it'll be tomorrow.)
Saw "Appaloosa" last night, but sent the email this morning. Please let me know if it doesn't reach you.
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I'd also be interested to see some prestige classes as feat chains.I'd be happy to email you what I've done so far.
Kirth, could you send that to me too, please? peacecorpsbrian (at) hotmail (dot) com
I've been fiddling with some of the Taldan dueling feats for a character I'm building. The Expert Dualist from the Pathfinder Society seems awesome. The Taldan Duelist in the Campaign Setting seemed cool but the more I look at it, the less benefit I see for the cost, for one thing the weapon - the falcata - isn't finessible so it lock you into being a strength-fighter. For the first time I looked at the Swashbuckler class and I'm interested.
Kirth, could you send that to me too, please?
Sent.
The Blackguard should be a PrC. It's not an evil paladin or an antipaladin, but a fallen paladin, which requires you to have been a paladin in the first place.
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The Blackguard should be a PrC. It's not an evil paladin or an antipaladin, but a fallen paladin, which requires you to have been a paladin in the first place.
If you mean 'should' as in 'leave the class alone', then that's not the case. I believe the 3.5 version is achievable via several routes, none requiring paladin levels. In fact, the paladin is less likely to qualify, since they don't have feats to burn on Improved Sunder, etc.
However, I just don't like those pre-requisites, as they just don't make sense. This is one of those PrC that should have few, if no, mechanical pre-reqs; it should be all about the events in-game.
What can you offer the evil cult, that they couldn't get from anyone else?
"Take me in as one of your own, and I will give you maps and passwords to the Holy of Holies under the Temple of The Shining One!"
"Thank you very much! Welcome to the Cult of the Old One!"
"Hahaha! They will pay for questioning my purity! Teehee!"
"Oh, hang on. Have you got Improved Sunder?"
"Eh?"
"You can Sunder objects, without provoking Attacks of Opportunity, can't you? Only, it's kind of essential..."
"What? That's stupi..err I mean, oh, is it really? Would not having that be a problem? Hypothetically, I mean?"
"Hmm, yeah. Look, sorry, but we can't use you. Nothing personal, you understand. It's just that this cult is all about smashing things. We used to do all that 'corrupting innocents' and 'causing mayhem' stuff, but now we just pinch people's plantpots, line them up against the wall and bash, bash, bash! Really stickin' it to The Man!"
"Soo...the maps and stuff? Me betraying my holy vows?"
"Keep'em. They're not worth our while."
If you mean 'should' as in 'leave the class alone', then that's not the case. I believe the 3.5 version is achievable via several routes, none requiring paladin levels. In fact, the paladin is less likely to qualify, since they don't have feats to burn on Improved Sunder, etc.
Paladins get a lot more out of the Blackguard PrC than anyone else. They also get to trade in paladin levels over 10 for Blackguard levels.
Oooh. Ooh. Me too, please. (E-mail address in profile) PS: liked my initial skim of your 'You Know What of Seven Whotsits'...(can't say more, you never know if my players are about!)
Sent.
P.S. If you run the whatsit of whosit one, please let me know how it went! I can send you the log from when I used it in my homebrew campaign -- everyone had a blast.
However, I just don't like those pre-requisites, as they just don't make sense. This is one of those PrC that should have few, if no, mechanical pre-reqs; it should be all about the events in-game.
Agreed (and very humorously and aptly demonstrated!). Improved Sunder is a weird prerequisite for this one. It always struck me as a "burn one feat" prerequisite, since it's one of those things greedy players will never do - destroy the very stuff they might want to sell later.
If the blackguard remains a PrC*, Improved Sunder should be stricken from the prerequisites, being replaced by something more fitting. Maybe Intimidating Prowess, or maybe even cleave.
*Personally, I think it should be the same type of class as a paladin. Since I doubt that the paladin will become a PrC, that means that the blackguard should turn into a base class. Maybe even just a Paladin variant - one you can turn a regular paladin into if you fulfill some prerequisites (must be a fallen paladin who was indoctrinated by a divine spellcaster or divine servant of the god/religion he wants to be a blackguard of; also, he must receive an atonement by a cleric or similar)
As for his powers: I don't know whether all the auras would fit, and same goes for lay on hands/channel energy, so I'd trade them in for other stuff - negative auras, and maybe sneak attack (since blackguards have that).
And the mount becomes a fiendish servant (be sure to keep some fiendish mount on the list).
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Sent.
P.S. If you run the whatsit of whosit one, please let me know how it went! I can send you the log from when I used it in my homebrew campaign -- everyone had a blast.
Thanks for that!
They've seen the statue holding the 'whotsit', and fluked the Religion checks (not that I mind-background like that should be used).
I initially intended to use handouts and history from the 2E products to build up the immersion, but if I need a side-trek, it's good to know there are some stats to hand.
Oooh. Ooh.
Me too, please. (E-mail address in profile)
PS: liked my initial skim of your 'You Know What of Seven Whotsits'...(can't say more, you never know if my players are about!)
I'm always about. Post as tip-sniffer if you want me to avoid it...
I would like something like the Unfettered from Monte Cooke's Arcana Unearthed (different from Unearthed Arcana) with a little Duelist prestige class mixed in.
One of our Expedition to the Ruins of Greyhawk characters was an Unfettered, previously one of our group's favorite classes. In switching to Beta rules, he converted his PC as a fighter/rogue (heavier on the fighter) and has lost nothing in the conversion -- if anything, he's having more fun now.
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I've been thinking. A Blackguard class could work just as a mirror image of the Paladin. Nothing much would need to change, save for things like Smite Evil and Detect Evil becoming Smite Good/Detect Good. Lay on Hands can simply be changed to use negative energy. A few of the auras would need renaming, but mechanically they can stay the same. Obviously, the spell list would need to be tweaked as well.
But all together, it wouldn't be too much work.