I have been designing this new feat to fix two weapon fighting for classes that don't get access to precision damage. It has been hard, but this feat alone is to par with sending their first, and one feat toward two handed weapon fighting. So now I need help. I want to request the board to make character combinations that will break it to horribly over powered levels.
Please use two different methods.
1. Everything by name pathfinder and dungeons and dragons material. Not purely Paizo, Wizards of the Coast, or OGL.
2. Pathfinder only.
If we can through this I think we may have a nice new feat that will help with the iconic two weapon "fighter," barbarian, or paladin.
Thank you very much. I hope you like the feat idea.
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Two Weapon Style
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manor than with the two weapon fighting feat. You are not too concerned about getting specific points for maximum damage but rather raw damage from hitting things hard.
Preq: 17 Dex, 13 Str, +1 base attack bonus
Benefit: The user of this feat gains an additional attack with their off hand weapon for ever attack they have from the increase in their base attack bonus. So when your base attack reaches +6, +12, and +18 you get an additional attack at the lower base attack bonus attack. Attacking once with both your primary and off hand weapon is a standard action. Making more attacks requires a full round action.
Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are also reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 3 and the one for your off hand lessens by 7. There is no modification for wielding two light weapons. The extra off hand attacks gained from this feat are incapable of dealing extra damage, and damage dice, from precision based attacks. This includes such as Sneak Attack, Sudden Strike, skirmish, insightful Strike, elegant Strike, and other bonus damage that requires the target to be vulnerable to critical hits. If they gain the ability to deal precision based attacks to these targets they do not gain the ability to deal extra damage with their off hand attacks.
Special: Two Weapon Style counts as two weapon fighting feats when they match the base attack bonus to their two weapon fighting equivalents for all feats, prestige classes, etc, with the exception of Greater Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Two Weapon Fighting Feats. Example: If you have a base attack bonus of +6, you qualify as having improved two weapon fighting feat for all purposes such as feats, prestige classes, etc.
Um, can you reword that a bit more clearly, and explain why it's doing the extra attacks in increments of 6 BAB? From what I can see now it is impossible to break unless broken is used to mean ineffective.
Let's put it this way. You could take Perfect Two Weapon Fighting the Epic feat, remove every prerequisite so you could take it at level 1, and it'd still only barely be worth it as it is still subpar compared to anyone with a two handed weapon and no feats burned on it. You'd need to present something considerably better than that for there to be any possibility of breakage as in overpoweredness.
Um, can you reword that a bit more clearly, and explain why it's doing the extra attacks in increments of 6 BAB? From what I can see now it is impossible to break unless broken is used to mean ineffective.
Let's put it this way. You could take Perfect Two Weapon Fighting the Epic feat, remove every prerequisite so you could take it at level 1, and it'd still only barely be worth it as it is still subpar compared to anyone with a two handed weapon and no feats burned on it. You'd need to present something considerably better than that for there to be any possibility of breakage as in overpoweredness.
OK thanks, that is what I needed to know. This feat is close, but not quite, to par two spending a single feat on two handed weapon fighting.
Using two long swords
2D6 19-20/x2 w/-1 approx. 1.5 to hit
Using a two handed weapon with power attack for 1
2D6+2 19-20/x2 w/-1 to hit
So yeah it is still under powered and I was thinking about allowing full strength on both attacks; or eliminating or maybe even giving a bonus to hit of +1. They could still get double use out of favorite enemy, fighters could still get double from weapon specialization, barbarians could still get double from elemental rage. But you still have to deal with double the weapon costs and double the DR problems.
Just to entertain the idea.
Two Weapon Fighting v.1 with highest str possible
2D6+7 19-20/x2 with +1 to hit
Two Weapon Fighting v.2 with highest str possible
2D6+10 19-20/x2
Two Weapon Fighting v.3 with highest str possible
2D6+10 19-20/x2 with +1 to hit
Two Handed Weapon with power attack for 1 and highest str possible
2D6+9 19-20/x2 w/-1 to hit
The +1 to hit is to represent that it is harder to defend against two weapons than just 1.
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manor
Tell me where I can find this manor, who resides there and when the fights are taking place.
;-P
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manorTell me where I can find this manor, who resides there and when the fights are taking place.
;-P
Well the idea is that rather than trying to stab and slash for vitals like two weapon fighting you more interested in just hitting them through the armor. Thus why they have reduced minuses and restrictions, but can't get off more attacks with "precision" type damage.
Um, what? 2 longswords would be taking -3/-3 or so. Normally -4/-4, but it sounds like you aimed to reduce the penalties by one. It'd also do 1d8 which wouldn't help much. I assume you mean shortswords.
Well, base damage is going to come out the same since mainhand gets full strength and offhand gets half. But if you had a two hander you'd get * 1.5 resulting in 2d6 + str * 1.5 vs 2d6 + str * 1.5. Except the TWF guy takes -1 to hit and has to keep up two separate weapons. I believe you did at least let him attack once with each weapon and still move more than 5 feet so that's one issue fixed. THF guy also doesn't have to set a feat on fire for basic competence which is why even PTWF would only barely be worth it and the barely comes from precision damage dice. Alternately THF takes PA and PAs for 1, getting the same accuracy with 2 more damage, better ability to deal with DR since it's one hit instead of two and is on his way to getting some good offensive feats instead of having just merely acquired basic competence.
Weapon Specialization is a trap feat. Elemental Rage... some piddly little 1d6s that would count as the aforementioned bonus damage dice that is the only thing that can make TWF worth taking if there were more than one of them.
Well the idea is that rather than trying to stab and slash for vitals like two weapon fighting you more interested in just hitting them through the armor. Thus why they have reduced minuses and restrictions, but can't get off more attacks with "precision" type damage.
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manorTell me where I can find this manor, who resides there and when the fights are taking place.
;-P
How dare you ignore me making good-natured fun of your funny typo?
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How dare you ignore me making good-natured fun of your funny typo?Well the idea is that rather than trying to stab and slash for vitals like two weapon fighting you more interested in just hitting them through the armor. Thus why they have reduced minuses and restrictions, but can't get off more attacks with "precision" type damage.
You are adept at wielding two weapons in a more brutal manorTell me where I can find this manor, who resides there and when the fights are taking place.
;-P
Don't worry. I thought it was rather amusing. your humour was not wasted in this case.
Um, what? 2 longswords would be taking -3/-3 or so. Normally -4/-4, but it sounds like you aimed to reduce the penalties by one. It'd also do 1d8 which wouldn't help much. I assume you mean shortswords.
Well, base damage is going to come out the same since mainhand gets full strength and offhand gets half. But if you had a two hander you'd get * 1.5 resulting in 2d6 + str * 1.5 vs 2d6 + str * 1.5. Except the TWF guy takes -1 to hit and has to keep up two separate weapons. I believe you did at least let him attack once with each weapon and still move more than 5 feet so that's one issue fixed. THF guy also doesn't have to set a feat on fire for basic competence which is why even PTWF would only barely be worth it and the barely comes from precision damage dice. Alternately THF takes PA and PAs for 1, getting the same accuracy with 2 more damage, better ability to deal with DR since it's one hit instead of two and is on his way to getting some good offensive feats instead of having just merely acquired basic competence.
Weapon Specialization is a trap feat. Elemental Rage... some piddly little 1d6s that would count as the aforementioned bonus damage dice that is the only thing that can make TWF worth taking if there were more than one of them.
Yeah I miss did my math lol, I completely brain farted.
With my feat this would be the comparison. Note made this feat to be separate from two weapon fighting, and I also made it able to use two one handed weapons at the same time with no further minus.
A: TWS (Two Weapon Style)
Game Text
2D8 19-20/x2 w/-1 to hit
Outcome
2-16 w/9 adv., w/-1.5 to hit
THF using power attack
Game Text
2D6+2 19-20/x2 w/-1 hit
Outcome
4-16 w/9 adv., w/-1 to hit
So you are still left with the fact of;
TWS is two less on minimum and average damage with a 0.5 greater minus to hit when compared to THF. So how does these possible changes look? (Take in mind I am not trying to out damage a two handed fighter really, I got some planes for their own niche.)
B: TWS (Two Weapon Style)
Game Text
2D8 19-20/x2 w/+1 to hit
Outcome
2-16 w/9 adv., w/+0.5 to hit
Or
C: TWS (Two Weapon Style) with max str at 1st.
Game Text
2D6+10 19-20/x2 w/+1 to hit
Outcome
12-22 w/17 adv., w/+0.5 to hit
Or
D: TWS (Two Weapon Style) using power attack with max str at 1st.
Game Text
2D6+10 19-20/x2 w/+1 to hit
Outcome
12-22 w/17 adv., w/+0.5 to hit
(Compared to this)
THF with power attack with max str at 1st.
Game Text
2D6+2+7 19-20/x2 w/-1 hit
Outcome
11-21 w/16 adv., w/-1 to hit
So my favorite is C as while it is good to start it will dimishish, and allow you to go into another niche at the same time.
I am still having a very difficult time making sense of your confusing format.
I am still having a very difficult time making sense of your confusing format.
OK...
I am comparing mechanically my two weapon style feat to two handed weapon fighting, both at their best/most powerful possible, at 1st level, and with only spending 1 feat toward that fighting style.
I'll break one down so you can translate.
"B: TWS (Two Weapon Style)
Game Text
2D8 19-20/x2 w/+1 to hit
Outcome
2-16 w/9 adv., w/+0.5 to hit"
"B:"
Is the set version of the feat.
"Game Text"
Means the stuff below is what it would look like in game
"2D8"
Is the weapon damage.
"19-20/x2"
Is the critical threat and multiplier
"w/"
Is a short for the word with.
"+1 to hit"
Is self-explanatory
"Outcome"
The following would be the actual things that happen in game to which to compare to with other styles of fighting, such as two handed weapon fighting.
"2-16"
Is the damage range
"9 adv."
Translates to 9 points of damage on average as I am dyslexic and for got how to spell average, very sorry.
"+0.5 to hit"
Is the actual bonus/minus to hit modified by probability due to having to roll twice to get the full power out of the attack action.
Again very sorry about the miss spelling of the short for average. Note that I think I know what I am doing with this math, but I don't know for sure.
I also made a mistake with C above
Note here I am changing the rules so that each attack deals full strength damage. Thus the "with max str at 1st." comment and the "+10" beside the "2D6".
it is supposed to be
C: TWS with max str at 1st.
Game Text
2D6+10 19-20/x2 w/-1 to hit
Outcome
12-22 w/17 avg., w/+0.5 to hit
I would also like to add this
E: TWS with max str at 1st.
Game Text
2D6+10 19-20/x2
Outcome
12-22 w/17 avg., w/+0.5 to hit
So with that out of the way I would like to change my mind.
I like the idea of B the best, as I got a good idea for the next progression feat. I think giving this two weapon style the ability to hit more often, rather than do more damage, and give it some bonuses to specific combat maneuvers that require only an attack action, which they would become the most optimal for.
Well that's how the style actually works. You don't get more attacks, but your attacks connect a lot more often and do a lot more. Only problem is that's hard to play out, especially in a game where keeping two weapons up to par is damn hard at best (and flat out impossible if you don't have a crafter buddy willing to set months of his life on fire for you).
Well that's how the style actually works. You don't get more attacks, but your attacks connect a lot more often and do a lot more. Only problem is that's hard to play out, especially in a game where keeping two weapons up to par is damn hard at best (and flat out impossible if you don't have a crafter buddy willing to set months of his life on fire for you).
Well that's how the style actually works. You don't get more attacks, but your attacks connect a lot more often and do a lot more. Only problem is that's hard to play out, especially in a game where keeping two weapons up to par is damn hard at best (and flat out impossible if you don't have a crafter buddy willing to set months of his life on fire for you).
It glitched when I posted.
So I take it you like example B the best as well?
Don't worry about the weapon cost, I have my solution for that, other than taking that weapon swap feat. Basically it is something along the amulet of natural weaponry from savage species. You have an amulet or ring that you put weapon enhancements on that is tied to two specific weapons, not weapon types, specific weapons. So if that weapon gets destroyed then you need to pay the full half cost and the cost of the new weapon or your stuck with a slot filled item and one weapon enhanced till you can pull it off, or something along those lines. Not too sure if I want to try to ask Jason for standard or 1.5 weapon cost.