Perhaps change the bonus for wildshape to be a polymorph bonus so it could stack
Full ack.
Else it is useless for the druid to have physical stat-boosters now working, if the wildshaped forms also provides an enhancement bonus.Perhaps all the "Form of the XXX" Spells shoud provide polymorph bonus.
I wholeheartedly agree. Either a polymorph bonus, size bonus, or inherent bonus would do; an enhancement bonus IMHO is too weak.
Perhaps change the bonus for wildshape to be a polymorph bonus so it could stackFull ack.
Else it is useless for the druid to have physical stat-boosters now working, if the wildshaped forms also provides an enhancement bonus.
Have you guys actually tried out this version of Wild Shape? In my experience, a druid with a 14 starting Str (say) can hold his own in a fight but doesn't overshadow the fighter. So what's wrong with that?
Is there a secret subculture of 3.5 druids with Belts of Giant Strength that I'm not aware of?
I would go further and turn it into an unnamed bonus.
Is there a secret subculture of 3.5 druids with Belts of Giant Strength that I'm not aware of?
Well, for me, the real problem is not that magical items are not so useful for a Wild-shaped Druid anymore; the real problem is that buffer spells that the Druid has(like Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc.) suddenly become useless. A Druid in Dire Bear form should not be more powerful than a Fighter; but shapeshifting only to get 2 claws and 1 bite instead of an iterative attack with a scimitar(for example) would be a poor choice if the form doesn't give some other boosts. The new Polymorph spells are ok in my opinion, and the amount of bonuses and special abilities that they grant are balanced (and a lot more easy to understand than the old system), but the fact that they give the most common bonus of the system is a bit underpowered, IMHO.
Well, for me, the real problem is not that magical items are not so useful for a Wild-shaped Druid anymore; the real problem is that buffer spells that the Druid has(like Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, etc.) suddenly become useless. A Druid in Dire Bear form should not be more powerful than a Fighter; but shapeshifting only to get 2 claws and 1 bite instead of an iterative attack with a scimitar(for example) would be a poor choice if the form doesn't give some other boosts. The new Polymorph spells are ok in my opinion, and the amount of bonuses and special abilities that they grant are balanced (and a lot more easy to understand than the old system), but the fact that they give the most common bonus of the system is a bit underpowered, IMHO.
(a) The spell Bear's Endurance (that you mentioned above) doesn't overlap any benefits that a druid would get from shapeshifting into a Dire Bear.
(b) I find your example of a druid attacking with a scimitar being better than a druid using a claw/claw/bite as a dire bear unconvincing.The general impression I get from this thread is "I want my 31 Str (plus buffs) dire bear druid back!" Well, tough bananas. :-)
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Perhaps change the bonus for wildshape to be a polymorph bonus so it could stackFull ack.
Else it is useless for the druid to have physical stat-boosters now working, if the wildshaped forms also provides an enhancement bonus.Have you guys actually tried out this version of Wild Shape? In my experience, a druid with a 14 starting Str (say) can hold his own in a fight but doesn't overshadow the fighter. So what's wrong with that?
Is there a secret subculture of 3.5 druids with Belts of Giant Strength that I'm not aware of?
In a one shot campaign yes, in a fight with a few werewolfs my level 6 wildshapes were doing nearly nothing to no damage. The other players were able to purchase sliver weapons to do damage while I'm stuck pretty much as a caster of 13 wis (or 15 counting wis head item) (Str 15+1 ability bonus, 14 dex and 14 con).
In a one shot campaign yes, in a fight with a few werewolfs my level 6 wildshapes were doing nearly nothing to no damage. The other players were able to purchase sliver weapons to do damage while I'm stuck pretty much as a caster of 13 wis (or 15 counting wis head item) (Str 15+1 ability bonus, 14 dex and 14 con).
Well, 3.5 druids didn't have any way of getting through DR/silver either. And that has little to do with having Belts of Giant Strength stack with polymorph bonuses (as far as I can tell).
How can anybody argue that Polymorph/Wildshape should grant Enhancement bonuses NOT Polymorph bonuses?
I mean, the change to Polymorph is a VERY signfigant reduction in it's potential use comapared to 3.5,
I really don't see any problem with making the Stat Bonuses Polymorph or Inherent.
If it's still felt necessary to "balance" the Wildshape/Polymorph forms,
it's quite easy to fine-tune the types of magical items you can benefit from while Wildshaped...?>!?!?
Well, 3.5 druids didn't have any way of getting through DR/silver either. And that has little to do with having Belts of Giant Strength stack with polymorph bonuses (as far as I can tell).
Hmmm...
This makes me think that Arcane Strike should also be available to Druids and Clerics, for just this reason...It certainly seems reasonable that Druids might find themselves fighting abominations against Nature like Lycanthropes and Undead, so...
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Well, 3.5 druids didn't have any way of getting through DR/silver either. And that has little to do with having Belts of Giant Strength stack with polymorph bonuses (as far as I can tell).
In a one shot campaign yes, in a fight with a few werewolfs my level 6 wildshapes were doing nearly nothing to no damage. The other players were able to purchase sliver weapons to do damage while I'm stuck pretty much as a caster of 13 wis (or 15 counting wis head item) (Str 15+1 ability bonus, 14 dex and 14 con).
Not really Druids 3.5 had higher strengths through their wildshapes and or take another standard action to add bull strength to themselves. Granted I would only have access to medium creatures at the time but there is always crocodile.
(a) The spell Bear's Endurance (that you mentioned above) doesn't overlap any benefits that a druid would get from shapeshifting into a Dire Bear.
You are right, Bear's Endurance is the only physical buffer a Druid can still use while Wild-shaping in animal form; but the time he can also Wild-Shaping in elemental form or plant form, the bonus from Bear's Endurance is suddenly crippled (as a Small Plant at 8th level, the Druid gains a +2 enhancement to Constitution; as a Huge Water Elemental at 12th level, he gains a +6 enhancement bonus to Constitution). And Bull's Strength and Cat's grace are almost immediately useless (Large Animal, 6th level= +4 enhancement to Strength; Tiny Animal, 6th level= +4 enhancement to Dexterity).
(b) I find your example of a druid attacking with a scimitar being better than a druid using a claw/claw/bite as a dire bear unconvincing.
A Druid wild-shaped in Dire Bear form has an attack routine of 2 claws (full BaB) for 2d4+Str Bonus and 1 bite (BaB -5) for 2d8+half Str Bonus. Don't get me wrong, this is not bad; but the same druid with a Cold Iron or Silver magical Scimitar could deal some impressive damage as well.
Let's say a 10th level druid (BaB +7) with a +2 Keen Scimitar (a +3 weapon) and Strength 12; let's say he casts Bull's Strength to be equal in Strength to his Wild-shaped Dire Bear form (Str 16).As a Dire Bear: 2 Claws +10 (2d4+3, 20x2; average damage 8), 1 Bite +5 (2d8+1, 20x2; average damage 10)
As a Druid: Scimitar (wielded with two hands) +12/+7 (1d6+6, 15-20x2; average damage 9,5)
This Druid is slightly less powerful in humanoid form only because he has two attacks instead than three; overall, he can hit more precisely AND have a good chance to score crits.
The same Druid have to cast Greater Magic Fang(or at least Magic Fang) to be a real threat against monsters with a good AC. Which is good for the Fighter, let me say that; but the choice of "Big Bear" is more for flavor (IMHO) than for damage output.
You are right, Bear's Endurance is the only physical buffer a Druid can still use while Wild-shaping in animal form
Cat's Grace, too (for a large animal, anyways).
A Druid wild-shaped in Dire Bear form has an attack routine of 2 claws (full BaB) for 2d4+Str Bonus and 1 bite (BaB -5) for 2d8+half Str Bonus. Don't get me wrong, this is not bad; but the same druid with a Cold Iron or Silver magical Scimitar could deal some impressive damage as well.
Let's say a 10th level druid (BaB +7) with a +2 Keen Scimitar (a +3 weapon) and Strength 12; let's say he casts Bull's Strength to be equal in Strength to his Wild-shaped Dire Bear form (Str 16).
As a Dire Bear: 2 Claws +10 (2d4+3, 20x2; average damage 8), 1 Bite +5 (2d8+1, 20x2; average damage 10)
Wait -- the scimitar guy gets a +2 scimitar, but the wild shape guy doesn't get an amulet of natural attacks? That's not fair! :-)
From looking at it, you really do think it should be untyped for a druid, but without it being able to stack with the spell version.
From looking at it, you really do think it should be untyped for a druid, but without it being able to stack with the spell version.
Who do you mean by "you"?
Just to clarify my position: I'm not sold on having the bonus from wild shape being an enhancement bonus. But neither am I sold on the idea that having an enhancement bonus is crippling. So far I've heard one person say his druid couldn't penetrate DR/silver (a legitimate complaint, although I'm not convinced "more Str" is the only solution), but that's about it.
I feel a size bonus would be a better fit. It just makes better sense to me.
Would it be overpowered? I don't think so. Alter-Self (the lowest level polymorph spell) is 2nd level and I'd rather see the bonuses stacked with Bull's strenght (2nd level) rather than Enlarge/Reduce Person (1st level).
Stats enhancing items are not exactly what they were, I'm not sure how bad it could get.
Keep in mind that when Wild Shaped, you not only get the Enhancement Bonuses provided by the spell, but you also gain Size bonuses as well. The way that Wild Shape used to work was totally broken, and although I think the various shape spells might need a bit of tweaking, I believe that the overall concept is solid.
Wait -- the scimitar guy gets a +2 scimitar, but the wild shape guy doesn't get an amulet of natural attacks? That's not fair! :-)
I believe the amulet of mighty fists will work with any natural attack... it's expensive though.
Anyhow, I don't see the reason WHY the bonus should be Enhancement, instead of Inherent.
Just because Pathfinder has standardized the effects to become "Bonuses" instead of wholesale swapping out of stats, doesn't change the basic concept, that your physical form is actually altered by the spell.
If the Druid Wildshapes into an Elephant, he is stronger because his form now IS that large and powerful (INDEED, HE COULD NOT MOVE IF HE HAD HIS NORMAL STRENGTH), not because there is a magical boost giving him more strength than his current form naturally has.
Likewise, when he Wildshapes into an Eagle, he has a NATURAL Fly Speed, not the effects of a Fly Spell.
If the Druid wants to Wildshape merely into a "Buff Human", I would say that his muscles bulge out to reflect the new strength, not that his normal strength is magically assisted, like a Bull's Strength Enhancement.
ANYWAYS. If Wildshape needs to be nerfed more in some way, so be it, but it doesn't make sense to me that the physical bonuses from having a new physical form should not count as inherent bonuses to that form...
That's my 2c on it... /shrug
From looking at it, you really do think it should be untyped for a druid, but without it being able to stack with the spell version.Who do you mean by "you"?
Just to clarify my position: I'm not sold on having the bonus from wild shape being an enhancement bonus. But neither am I sold on the idea that having an enhancement bonus is crippling. So far I've heard one person say his druid couldn't penetrate DR/silver (a legitimate complaint, although I'm not convinced "more Str" is the only solution), but that's about it.
I don't know what I was thinking when I typed that, but a class ability that is made obsolete by an item or spell is not really a class ability at all.
Anyhow, I don't see the reason WHY the bonus should be Enhancement, instead of Inherent.
Just because Pathfinder has standardized the effects to become "Bonuses" instead of wholesale swapping out of stats, doesn't change the basic concept, that your physical form is actually altered by the spell.If the Druid Wildshapes into an Elephant, he is stronger because his form now IS that large and powerful (INDEED, HE COULD NOT MOVE IF HE HAD HIS NORMAL STRENGTH), not because there is a magical boost giving him more strength than his current form naturally has.
Likewise, when he Wildshapes into an Eagle, he has a NATURAL Fly Speed, not the effects of a Fly Spell.
If the Druid wants to Wildshape merely into a "Buff Human", I would say that his muscles bulge out to reflect the new strength, not that his normal strength is magically assisted, like a Bull's Strength Enhancement.ANYWAYS. If Wildshape needs to be nerfed more in some way, so be it, but it doesn't make sense to me that the physical bonuses from having a new physical form should not count as inherent bonuses to that form...
That's my 2c on it... /shrug
I hope Jason listens to you.
Anyhow, I don't see the reason WHY the bonus should be Enhancement, instead of Inherent.
Just because Pathfinder has standardized the effects to become "Bonuses" instead of wholesale swapping out of stats, doesn't change the basic concept, that your physical form is actually altered by the spell.
The reason that the Wild Shape bonuses are Enhancement bonuses instead of some other type of bonus is to keep players from stacking them up like crazy. Polymorph Bonuses + Size Bonuses + Enhancement Bonuses = broken class ability. It wouldn't be as bad as before, but it would still be very bad indeed.
ANYWAYS. If Wildshape needs to be nerfed more in some way, so be it, but it doesn't make sense to me that the physical bonuses from having a new physical form should not count as inherent bonuses to that form...
That's my 2c on it... /shrug
Wild Shape is fine the way it is. It does not need to be nerfed any further.
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Unless I am reading it wrong...This is my problem with The new Druid Wild Shape..
How does a Low Str Druid *Or even High Str Druid* able to carry around it own weight when it changes shape into a large or huge Animal... It does not even come close to enough a Str bonus to be able to handle the tons of weight we are talking here.
I am able to suspend my believe with a Black bear with a 27 str *Even though the charts don't match the the weight of 1800 Lbs* but a black bear with only say a 14 str.. Is pushing my suspension of belief.
Keep in mind that when Wild Shaped, you not only get the Enhancement Bonuses provided by the spell, but you also gain Size bonuses as well. The way that Wild Shape used to work was totally broken, and although I think the various shape spells might need a bit of tweaking, I believe that the overall concept is solid.
This was the way Wild Shape worked in 3.x (and polymorph spells as well, apart from the latest versions of spells from PHBII). In the current BEta PFRPG rules, a character who polymorphs DOES NOT gain size modifiers to his characteristics.
On page 159: "If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, combat maneuver bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. You ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell."
So, a Wild-shaping Druid who changes form into that of a Large animal does not take the "+8 STR, -2 DEX, +4 CON" modifiers of a creature that changes size from Medium to Large (for example), only the "+1 CMB, -1 AC, -1 Attack rolls, -4 Stealth" modifiers. Then, it applies the "+4 Enhancement STR, -2 DEX, +1 Natural Armor" of the Wild Shape power (as per the Beast Shape II spell). That is the reason why there is a large number of people (counting myself) that ask these bonuses not to be Enhancement ones(but at least Size bonuses, if not Polymorph or Inherent ones).
Read my post. I'm not advocating nerfing Wildshape.
As I said, that they are "Bonuses" is only something Paizo introduced to STANDARDIZE the benefit, not to change how it works. You are stronger because you actually now have more muscle mass, not because there is arcane energies augmenting your "natural" strength, like Bull's Strength. Likewise, you are actually as heavy as said form.
If your actual effective muscle mass can be classed as an "Enhancement", why isn't Natural Armor likewise classed as an "Enhancement"? Because Natural Armor isn't "broken"? OK, but you just need to toss out any logical consistency if you do that. That's why I don't consider the current Wildshape "fine", because it fails internal logical consistency. Personally, I think Enhancement just slipped in there, without TOO much thought, and I expect it to be fixed when the Spells are revised.
I really don't see why being able to stack Polymorph/Inherent stat bonuses with Enhancements is that "broken"... Given that there's Divine, Luck, Competence, Insight, etc, etc, that all stack. And now that Pathfinder is introducing a rule of 4 maximum spell effects at one time (INCLUDING Polymorph), it doesn't really seem such a big problem.
Read my post. I'm not advocating nerfing Wildshape.
I know you're not. But Dennis Da Ogre and his crew are - they've been screaming bloody murder about removing Wild Shape and Animal Companions all this last week, so I always have to pre-emptively throw that out there.
As I said, that they are "Bonuses" is only something Paizo introduced to STANDARDIZE the benefit, not to change how it works. You are stronger because you actually now have more muscle mass, not because there is arcane energies augmenting your "natural" strength, like Bull's Strength. Likewise, you are actually as heavy as said form.
If your actual effective muscle mass can be classed as an "Enhancement", why isn't Natural Armor likewise classed as an "Enhancement"? Because Natural Armor isn't "broken"? OK, but you just need to toss out any logical consistency if you do that. That's why I don't consider the current Wildshape "fine", because it fails internal logical consistency. Personally, I think Enhancement just slipped in there, without TOO much thought, and I expect it to be fixed when the Spells are revised.
I really don't see why being able to stack Polymorph/Inherent stat bonuses with Enhancements is that "broken"... Given that there's Divine, Luck, Competence, Insight, etc, etc, that all stack. And now that Pathfinder is introducing a rule of 4 maximum spell effects at one time (INCLUDING Polymorph), it doesn't really seem such a big problem.
I've already toyed around with this idea, and it breaks the delicate game balance that Paizo has established with Wild Shape. If the bonuses provided by Wild Shape were either Size bonuses or untyped or Polymorph bonuses, their Wild Shape would be overpowered once more because you'd be able to stack all kinds of crazy bonuses on top of them. Logically, I'd like to just call it a Size bonus - it's an intellectually cleaner distinction, but it starts breaking things down.
Look, this is Beta Release 1, no 'delicate game balance' has been achieved.
Nobody even knows what types of Attack Bonues apply to Combat Maneuvers,
or why Fighting Defensively has no RAW way to help you vs. Grapples,
not to mention Arcane Bonded Item.
If Wildshape so desperately needs to be 'balanced' or weakened, just reduce the frigging bonus, for christ's sake! Enhancemenet Bonus does NOT match how Wildshape is alleged to work, and the reason Paizo gave for the change to Wildshape/Polymorph/etc is to STANDARDIZE the benefits, so you can't just pick the uber-est Animal of that HD level from a Monster Book, NOT because of stacking with buffs. Their rule about limiting buff spells to 4 only is their contribution to huge amounts of stacking bonuses.
The Wraith kindly quoted the actual Rules which clarify that the Wildshape Standardized Bonuses SUPERSEDE the normal STR & CON bonuses for Large/ Giant creatures... The attack modifers/ maneuver modifiers (Large: +1/-1) still apply (though they've been reduced in Pathfinder), but those are a mixed bag, helping you for maneuvers (if you're big), but hurting you for melee damage (vice-versa for Small). I didn't notice that you responded to that, even though stacking with "Size Bonuses" was part of your "overpowered" equation...?
I'm also for either changing the bonuses for polymorph spells into size bonuses or adding the normal size modifiers into the mix. It's more consistent that way: You get bigger, you get a size bonus. Righteous Might works that way, too, and I think if anything, that one has less of a claim to size bonuses as wildshape.
Yes, give us back our size bonuses for wildshaping :)
I like this change to druids but enchantment bonuses are too much.
Also natural armor bonus when wildshaping also needs to become size bonus so it can stack with Barkskin.
I think natural armour should remain natural armour - and barkskin should grant an enhancement bonus to natural armour. Isn't that how it is already?
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I think natural armour should remain natural armour - and barkskin should grant an enhancement bonus to natural armour. Isn't that how it is already?
Nope as of right now RAW has Natural armor bonus is Enhancement. It doesn't specified otherwise and is part of the same sentence that states it's Enhancement. And Barkskin doesn't stack with any other enhancement bonus.
I think natural armour should remain natural armour - and barkskin should grant an enhancement bonus to natural armour. Isn't that how it is already?Nope as of right now RAW has Natural armor bonus is Enhancement. It doesn't specified otherwise and is part of the same sentence that states it's Enhancement.
As far as I know, you're the only one who's interpreting it that way. When KaeYoss and I see "a +1 natural armor bonus", it means a +1 natural armor bonus.
If Wildshape so desperately needs to be 'balanced' or weakened, just reduce the frigging bonus, for christ's sake! Enhancemenet Bonus does NOT match how Wildshape is alleged to work, and the reason Paizo gave for the change to Wildshape/Polymorph/etc is to STANDARDIZE the benefits, so you can't just pick the uber-est Animal of that HD level from a Monster Book, NOT because of stacking with buffs. Their rule about limiting buff spells to 4 only is their contribution to huge amounts of stacking bonuses.
Actually, preventing bonuses from stacking into the clouds was probably a HUGE consideration in redesigning Wild Shape. Changing the Wild Shape bonus to a Size bonus - even if it wouldn't stack with the regular Size bonuses - would allow you to stack on Enhancement Bonuses like any other character, which would throw the whole balance of the ability off-kilter.
And the bonuses from the various shape spells are basically structured to realistically reflect the stat adjustments that you would gain from a size increase, but without actually typing them as size bonuses. If you change them to size bonuses but reduce the overall bonuses, then you create a situation where they aren't "size-appropriate".
The Wraith kindly quoted the actual Rules which clarify that the Wildshape Standardized Bonuses SUPERSEDE the normal STR & CON bonuses for Large/ Giant creatures... The attack modifers/ maneuver modifiers (Large: +1/-1) still apply (though they've been reduced in Pathfinder), but those are a mixed bag, helping you for maneuvers (if you're big), but hurting you for melee damage (vice-versa for Small). I didn't notice that you responded to that, even though stacking with "Size Bonuses" was part of your "overpowered" equation...?
Indeed, I was in error when I originally stated that Druids get Size bonuses when Wild Shaping in the Pathfinder rules. Right now, they just get the Enhancement Bonuses from Wild Shape. And thankfully, the way the Shape spells are currently written, you can't really gain any Size bonuses either, so you can't stack them out of control...
I think natural armour should remain natural armour - and barkskin should grant an enhancement bonus to natural armour. Isn't that how it is already?Nope as of right now RAW has Natural armor bonus is Enhancement. It doesn't specified otherwise and is part of the same sentence that states it's Enhancement. And Barkskin doesn't stack with any other enhancement bonus.
The Ability Bonuses provided by the various shape spells are Enhancement, the penalties are untyped, and the Natural Armor bonuses are also untyped.
If Wildshape so desperately needs to be 'balanced' or weakened, just reduce the frigging bonus, for christ's sake! Enhancemenet Bonus does NOT match how Wildshape is alleged to work, and the reason Paizo gave for the change to Wildshape/Polymorph/etc is to STANDARDIZE the benefits, so you can't just pick the uber-est Animal of that HD level from a Monster Book, NOT because of stacking with buffs. Their rule about limiting buff spells to 4 only is their contribution to huge amounts of stacking bonuses.Actually, preventing bonuses from stacking into the clouds was probably a HUGE consideration in redesigning Wild Shape. Changing the Wild Shape bonus to a Size bonus - even if it wouldn't stack with the regular Size bonuses - would allow you to stack on Enhancement Bonuses like any other character, which would throw the whole balance of the ability off-kilter.
And the bonuses from the various shape spells are basically structured to realistically reflect the stat adjustments that you would gain from a size increase, but without actually typing them as size bonuses. If you change them to size bonuses but reduce the overall bonuses, then you create a situation where they aren't "size-appropriate".
The Wraith kindly quoted the actual Rules which clarify that the Wildshape Standardized Bonuses SUPERSEDE the normal STR & CON bonuses for Large/ Giant creatures... The attack modifers/ maneuver modifiers (Large: +1/-1) still apply (though they've been reduced in Pathfinder), but those are a mixed bag, helping you for maneuvers (if you're big), but hurting you for melee damage (vice-versa for Small). I didn't notice that you responded to that, even though stacking with "Size Bonuses" was part of your "overpowered" equation...?Indeed, I was in error when I originally stated that Druids get Size bonuses when Wild Shaping in the Pathfinder rules. Right now, they just get the Enhancement Bonuses from Wild Shape. And thankfully, the way the Shape spells are...
No, it would not. A druid that shapeshift and fight melee cannot cast spells. Or better to say, cannot cast spells and attack full-attack in the same round. And as it is now, fighting in melee is a subpar action and it not worth it.
This makes shapechange a class ability for show (similar to the rangers animal companion).Druid should have a choice from shapechanging and being a useful melee warrior or using spells to influence the battlefield.
The problem I see with others complaining is that other classes (like the Barbarian which druid shapechange was compared to) do not have such options and for that druid is considered overpowered.
And that is not true, that only makes the druid have more then one build options (unlike fighters, rogues and barbarians). And that is not a problem of the druid but a lack of options for other classes.
When the druid goes the wildshape route as he is now he is weaker then other melee classes, much weaker. He still needs to put points into Wisdom (actually needs to have at least 19 base wis by lvl 17 - base because to make itself immune to losing high level spells by losing magical equipment), which other melee classes do not need to (or they get combat bonuses for that - Monks can stun and instant kill and use Ki points during attacking because of high wisdom while paladins can use more powerful smite evil because of high charisma during attacking).
So Druid cannot just put all their ability points into Str, Dex and Con. They will always be weaker then other melee classes, and they get medium BAB and do not have any attack bonus boosts like other classes (or crazy number of attacks like monks). So they need this wild shape bonus on Str (or Dex) to stack with magical equipment just so they are close (they do not have Divine power like clerics).
Also druids lose rounds in combat by wildshaping and casting buffs on themselves, which I have nothing against as that is the balance behind Druids (and clerics). People on this thread have forgot this. Everyone is saying combat lasts for 3 rounds on average, so if the druid spends 1-2 rounds casting buffs on himself then they are not contributing. And if they then wade into melee combat as a useless Dire Bear what is the point?
No, changing the Wildshape bonuses to something other then enchantment would not overpower the druid, just make the wildshape a real alternative to just standing back and casting spells or summoning.
I will try to do some numbers in my next post so you will see that I am right.
Purpose: To show that druid's wildshape bonuses that are size and stack with enchantment still do not make druids overpowered or even more powerful that a barbarian in melee. I am not going to min/max as best as possible (I do not have enough time and willpower to do so and most players will not as well). I will stat them out for lvl 4, 11 and 20. I am only going to stat druids and barbarian score when using wildshape and barbarian rage. Druids in these examples can boost his abilities even further but that only takes rounds away from combat. I have given druid only Wildshape and barkskin as those two effects last a long time (especially if Extend spell feat is taken which is a very useful feat for a druid).
Base for druid (elite score):
Human druid
Str 16 (14+2human)
Dex 13
Con 12
Int 10
Wis 15
Cha 8
Base for barbarian (elite score):
Human barbarian
Str 17 (15+2 human)
Dex 13
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 8
LVL 4 comparison
Druid 4 (Brown Bear shape)
Str 16 (18 WS), Dex 13, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 16, Cha 8
HD: 4d8+8 (38) (+4 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP)
AC: 15 (+1 Dex, +2 natural, +2 barkskin)
BAB/CMB: +3/+7
Full Attack: 2 claws +8 (1d4+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
Reach: 5ft
Relevant Feats:
Equipment: Amulet of Mighty Fists +1 (claws)
Barbarian 4 (Rage)
Str 18 (22 Rage), Dex 13, Con 14 (18 Rage), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HD: 4d12+20 (63) (+4 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP, and rage improved Con)
AC: 14 (+1 Dex, +5 armor, -2 rage)
BAB/CMB: +4/+10
Full Attack: Greatsword +12 (2d6+13, 19-20)
Reach: 5ft
Relevant Feats: weapon focus (greatsword), power attack, overhand chop
Equipment: +1 Greatsword, +1 Chainshirt
LVL 11 comparison
Druid 11 (Large Earth Elemental shape)
Str 16 (26 WS+ench), Dex 13 (11 WS), Con 12 (14 WS), Int 10, Wis 17 (21), Cha 8
HD: 11d8+33 (94) (+11 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP)
AC: 24 (+5 armor, +6 natural, +4 barkskin, -1 size)
BAB/CMB: +8/+16
Full Attack: 2 Slams +18 (2d8+10)
Reach: 10 ft
Relevant Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Focus (slam), Natural spell
Equipment: Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (slam), Hide armor +1 Wild, belt of strength +4, Periapt of Wisdom +4
Barbarian 11 (Greater Rage)
Str 19 (29 Rage+ench), Dex 13 (15 ench), Con 14 (22 Rage+ench), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HD: 11d12+77 (166) (+11 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP, and rage improved Con)
AC: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 armor, -2 rage, +2 deflection)
BAB/CMB: +11/+20
Full Attack: Greatsword +23/+18/+13 (2d6+15 (2d6+20 1st attack), 17-20)
Reach: 5ft
Relevant Feats: weapon focus (greatsword), power attack, overhand chop, Cleave, Great Cleave, Backswing
Equipment: +2 Keen Greatsword, +3 Mithril Breastplate, belt of strength +4, gloves of dexterity +2, bracers of constitution +2, ring of protection +2
I will stat lvl 20 later as this is taking too much of my time (equipment mostly)
LVL 20 comparison
Druid 20 (Huge Earth Elemental shape)
Str 16 (30 WS+ench), Dex 13 (17 WS+ench), Con 12 (22 WS+ench), Int 10, Wis 20(26), Cha 8
HD: 20d8+140 (241) (+20 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP)
AC: 37 (+3 dex, +10 armor, +6 natural, +5 barkskin, -2 size, +5 deflection)
BAB/CMB: +15/+27
Full Attack: 2 Slams +29 (2d10+15, 19-20)
Reach: 15 ft
Relevant Feats: Multiattack, Weapon Focus (slam), Natural spell, Improved critical (slam)
Equipment: Amulet of Mighty Fists +5 (slam), Dragonskin Breastplate armor +5 Wild, belt of strength +6, Periapt of Wisdom +6, gloves of dex +6, bracers of con +6, Deflection +5
Barbarian 20 (Mighty Rage)
Str 22 (36 Rage+ench), Dex 13 (19 ench), Con 14 (28 Rage+ench), Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 8
HD: 20d12+200+23(T) (370) (+20 from favored class, and using double 1st lvl HD to HP)
AC: 33 (+4 Dex, +10 armor, -2 rage, +5 deflection, +5 natural, +1 dodge)
BAB/CMB: +20/+33
Full Attack: Greatsword +39/+34/+29/+24 (2d6+24+2d6holy+1d6fire (2d6+31+2d6+1d6 1st attack), 17-20)
Reach: 5ft
Relevant Feats: weapon focus (greatsword), power attack, overhand chop, Cleave, Great Cleave, Backswing, Dodge, Toughness
Equipment: +5 Keen Flame bursting Holy Greatsword, +5 Heavy fortification Mithril Breastplate, belt of strength +6, gloves of dexterity +6, bracers of constitution +6, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5
All three examples do not take into account all of the abilites of both classes, just their prime melee combat ones. Druid has animal companion that can fight alongside (but that is a problem for another topic), and the Barbarian has all the additional rage abilities that give big bonuses in combat.
As I stated earlier, Druid's spellcasting ability do not count in these comparison because a druid that casts spells does not fight in melee and then cannot steal the Barbarians place as melee combatant.
As I stated earlier, spells give the druid a choice between being a spellcaster or a OK melee combatant but the lack of such option for the barbarian is not a problem of the druid class but of the barbarian class (do not ask to nerf the druid but improved the options of the barbarian). But as I have shown they are not better melee combatants then the Barbarian (and I think other melee classes would be shown to be better then druid as well)
The Wraith kindly quoted the actual Rules which clarify that the Wildshape Standardized Bonuses SUPERSEDE the normal STR & CON bonuses for Large/ Giant creatures...Indeed, I was in error when I originally stated that Druids get Size bonuses when Wild Shaping in the Pathfinder rules. Right now, they just get the Enhancement Bonuses from Wild Shape.
Just to nitpick a little bit, you actually can get size bonuses/penalties from wild shape if you're not Small or Medium size in your normal form (as it states in the description of the Polymorph subschool).
Carry on. :-)
Just to nitpick a little bit, you actually can get size bonuses/penalties from wild shape if you're not Small or Medium size in your normal form (as it states in the description of the Polymorph subschool).
Just to point out, this is the most foggy part of the "polymorph" subschool (I even told this in another thread "General Discussion: Beast Shape Spells"). Basically, the last sentence of the polymorph school description seems "wrong".
"If a polymorph spell is cast by a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses
granted by the polymorph spell. If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments. "
The following table shows how to reduce or raise the scores of Tiny (or smaller) and Large (or larger) creatures to standardize them to Small/Medium characters scores before applying the polymorph spell and its bonuses (which supersedes the classical size bonuses from size augmentation/diminution). The last sentence, however, make my head fuzzy. It SEEMS to imply that a Large character, for example, keeps his ability scores if he polymorphs into a Large creature; however, as I posted in the aforementioned thread, this causes most of the polymorph spells (and the Wild Shape ability) to be "suboptimal" for such characters.
As an example (and please note that this is what I THINK the last sentence seems to imply; if somebody can point out that I'm mistaking and where, I would be glad to apologize):
1)Druid Medium size, STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10, Wild Shapes into a Large Water Elemental: his scores jump to STR 12, DEX 8, CON 16; he gains also a +6 natural armor
2)Druid Large size, STR 14, DEX 8, CON 12; following the table on page 160, his scores would be changed to STR 10, DEX 10, CON 10 before applying the bonuses from Wild Shape (the same as the Medium-sized druid above, and so his final characteristics would be exactly the same). HOWEVER, if the final sentence of the Polymorph school means exactly what it seems to mean, the poor Large-size Druid who takes the form of a Large Water elemental gets only +6 to natural armor and keeps his lame ability scores of STR 14 (2 more than the Water elemental), DEX 8 (the same) and CON 12 (4 points less !). And if he takes the form of a Large earth elemental, or a large Air elemental... they would all be the same ! All with STR 14, DEX 8, CON 12 (his own ability scores, not modified by his Wild Shape since "If the creature’s new size is the same as its previous size, do not make these adjustments.") !
I'm obviously mistaking something, but I really don't know what :( ...
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Purpose: To show that druid's wildshape bonuses that are size and stack with enchantment still do not make druids overpowered or even more powerful that a barbarian in melee. I am not going to min/max as best as possible (I do not have enough time and willpower to do so and most players will not as well). I will stat them out for lvl 4, 11 and 20. I am only going to stat druids and barbarian score when using wildshape and barbarian rage. Druids in these examples can boost his abilities even further but that only takes rounds away from combat. I have given druid only Wildshape and barkskin as those two effects last a long time (especially if Extend spell feat is taken which is a very useful feat for a druid).
Actually you forgot that when a Druid and Barbarian encounters something with a damage reduction only the Barbarian can switch out weapons that bypass damage reduction (adamantine great sword etc)
Purpose: To show that druid's wildshape bonuses that are size and stack with enchantment still do not make druids overpowered or even more powerful that a barbarian in melee. I am not going to min/max as best as possible (I do not have enough time and willpower to do so and most players will not as well). I will stat them out for lvl 4, 11 and 20. I am only going to stat druids and barbarian score when using wildshape and barbarian rage. Druids in these examples can boost his abilities even further but that only takes rounds away from combat. I have given druid only Wildshape and barkskin as those two effects last a long time (especially if Extend spell feat is taken which is a very useful feat for a druid).
You are unconvincing. In melee barbarians and druids are better at different things. Druids have flexibility, barbarians are raw power.
In general the barbarian you built is good at :
- Doing large amounts of damage against a single relatively stationary target
- Doing moderate amounts of damage to multiple targets in a very small area (5'radius usually 2-3 targets).
- Taking a lot of hits
- Encounters in 5' hallways
- Ability to carry different weapons to bypass different types of DR (though often alternate weapons are marginally less effective)
The druid you built is good at
- Large open battles where they can leverage their larger forms and mobility
- Any encounter that is not 100% on the ground (water, air, underground)
- Picking up special abilities on the fly (combat maneuvers as free actions, plus like pounce and burn)
- Doing huge amounts of damage to single lower AC targets (that earth elemental shape is weak compared to some choices)
- Doing moderate amounts of damage to multiple targets over a large area (10'-15' reach centered at the druid)
- Doing relatively small amounts of damage to a huge area (15' wide x 80' long) -- just with wild shape no spells
- Bypassing (bludgeon/ pierce/ slash/ magic) DR --they are weak against things that require adamantine and silver but can sometimes bypass that by using EB II to burn stuff.. or WTF maybe they can resort to using actual spells to combat those things
- Bypassing any sort of terrain obstacles to directly confront the enemy
- Significantly higher AC means they get hit much less often
- Free healing on shift, bonus CON+HP with some forms (water elemental, earth elemental) which lasts for hours versus rounds for barbarians rage HP
- Oh... plus the benefits of being a full caster and having an animal companion
And all that is before the belt of strength. How do you compare the benefits of 60+ different forms, each good at some specific things versus the one form of the barbarian? Again, the barbarian kicks the druids as$ when it comes to laying down lots of damage against a few targets... but in every other way the druid pwns the barbarian, plus he has spellcasting and an Animal Companion.
Actually you forgot that when a Druid and Barbarian encounters something with a damage reduction only the Barbarian can switch out weapons that bypass damage reduction (adamantine great sword etc)
Adamantine and Silver are the only types of DR druids can't overcome, even then they can use Fire Elemental and burn things for 2d6 damage + (plus stuff catches fire and might burn for longer). As has been pointed out the DR issue predates the Pathfinder RPG. A Golembane Scarab and silversheen would go a long way to mitigating that issue.
Just to nitpick a little bit, you actually can get size bonuses/penalties from wild shape if you're not Small or Medium size in your normal form (as it states in the description of the Polymorph subschool).
If your character is smaller then Small or Larger then Medium, you apply the appropriate Ability Score Adjustments for shrinking down in size, and the apply the Wild Shape Enhancement modifiers to your ability scores. But if you're Medium size and you become Huge, you don't get to make any ability score adjustments for your increased size.
In other words, a Druid's size CAN modify his ability scores - but only in a negative way.
In other words, a Druid's size CAN modify his ability scores - but only in a negative way.
!Consistency FTW!
But seriously, all this Size Bonus talk, really makes me think the Size bonuses should be SITUATIONAL and not permanently calculated into characters' stats. So if you have 2 Small creatures fighting, you don't need any modifiers. If you have a Large and a Giant creature fighting, you just use the net difference. Now that each tier is only +/-1, it's a simple on-the-fly calculation.
/threadjack
Director of Games
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I am carefully weighing this issue. I can understand the desire to add this back in, but I am concerned about the ramifications of some of the higher level spells, allowing a +8 or +10 Strength bonus to stack with a +6 from an item.
Also, the last sentence of the polymorph subschool is confusing even to me in retrospect. It will be clarified (most likely deleted).
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Doing huge amounts of damage to single lower AC targets (that earth elemental shape is weak compared to some choices)
The Elemental forms all have an emphasis on defense instead of offense. If you decide to go with Animal/Plant forms that have more offensive capabilities, you lose CON (and thereby HP) as part of the trade.
It seems to me that if the Wildshape itself counts towards the "4 Buff" Limit, the problems with stacking are self limiting, since WITHOUT the Wildshape you would be eligible for one more Buff (Luck, Divine, Competence, etc... all stacking/non-exclusive)
As a general "balancer", I think retaining Natural Spell is fine, since it's limited to Forms, but give it ONE Feat pre-req (preferably Wildshape-focused), and perhaps class it as Metamagic, which limits the Spell Levels (and makes it work more like Esch. Mat/ Silent Spell/ Still Spell, which otherwise can recreate it's functionality in Caster & Animal Form)
I am carefully weighing this issue. I can understand the desire to add this back in, but I am concerned about the ramifications of some of the higher level spells, allowing a +8 or +10 Strength bonus to stack with a +6 from an item.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Here's a potential compromise: what if the ability score bonuses provided by the various Shape spells were derived from both Size and Enhancement bonuses? Take for example Form Of The Dragon. You currently gain +10 STR and +8 CON from Enhancement bonuses when you have this spell cast on you. What if you changed the way the spell works so that the recipient would get a +5 STR Size bonus, +5 STR Enhancement bonus, a +4 Size CON bonus, and a +4 Enhancement CON bonus? The bonuses would end up the same, but they wouldn't stack so easily.
Here's another suggestion: Many people are angry that Druids can stay Wild Shaped for very long periods of time at lower levels. Perhaps it would be best to have Wild Shape initially have a duration of 1 minute per level of the Druid and increase the duration to 1 hour per level when they hit 9th level (the same level at which Wizards get Overland Flight).
And finally, two questions:
1) Was the 12th level ceiling on Wild Shape advancement intentionally put into place to encourage players that wanted to play WS Brawlers to cease advancing as Druids and multiclass into a melee class?
2) How does the design team currently feel about the Natural Spell Feat?
Many thanks!